Bob: From King To Customer - The end of Faithlife as we knew it?

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This post has 87 Replies | 15 Followers

Posts 556
Brent Hoefling | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 25 2016 9:44 AM

I don't want to make this out to be yet another complaint, so let me start with; I too have been a customer and user for decades, since the beginning of getting the software of floppy diskettes and having a stack of them to be sure, and then backing up license information on one separately as well. AND my most recent support with Faithlife was the upgrade to Collectors 7.

With that said, to my memory - I complained one time in the past when there was a move to libronix, and I seemed to have lost some of my resources in the migration process (turns out I had restored an older license file, and tech support was great about helping me through it.)

So, from then until L7 release, I had been a happy camper, spending tens of thousands of dollars, and supporting the paradigm of Logos with my money and time.  when I woke up to a L7 upgrade (LN user), I was excited.  I had already set aside half a day to watch the launch online stream.  

But before the stream, and after I was completely reindexed, I noticed a "bug" in the Courses tool (addressed elsewhere in the forums).  Eli did an AWESOME job explaining the situation.  My frustrations relieved, but disappointment was only slightly lessened. (still have not heard back from CS on this issue, otherwise, part of the challenge - that had never happened in all my years of being a Logos/Faithlife customer/user)

After following his advice this morning and finding my last class in the courses tool, and "fast forwarding" to where I knew I left off, it didn't take long to find another bug (already brought up by someone else in the forums, and I commented there as well).  this one was a pretty major one (for me).  The courses tool L7, opens the reading materials inside the tool to be able to track completion.  The discovery was that the Courses L7, does not allow CTRL-R (reading resource).  perhaps not a big deal for many, but it is a pretty major part of my learning process in Mobile ED.  I had even purchased several new "voices" for my computer for this purpose.

I guess that all that said, I feel like that at least in part, there has been a loss of communications - especially as a LN user.  Again, Eli helped with some of this in his explanation to me about the issue, but what I didn't realize then was it was not only about progress tracking/resource reading tracking that was not the same and perceptually lost, an actual function that I use all the time is now gone, leaving me to have to do my classes, two versions ago, technology with bookmarks and resources directly selected from the Library.

Posts 791
LogosEmployee
Eli Evans (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 25 2016 10:57 AM

Brent Hoefling:
 Eli did an AWESOME job explaining the situation.  My frustrations relieved, but disappointment was only slightly lessened. (still have not heard back from CS on this issue, otherwise, part of the challenge - that had never happened in all my years of being a Logos/Faithlife customer/user)

Thanks for the kind words, Brent. I told the CS director that I had responded to you on the forums, so it's likely that you won't hear from them on that issue. If they haven't responded about something else, please let us know.

Brent Hoefling:
The discovery was that the Courses L7, does not allow CTRL-R (reading resource).  perhaps not a big deal for many, but it is a pretty major part of my learning process in Mobile ED.  I had even purchased several new "voices" for my computer for this purpose.

The previous incarnation of the Courses tool required you to opened required readings for Mobile Ed courses in another window, and that window supported reading aloud. As far as I can tell, the Courses tool in 6.x Logos Now never supported reading aloud within the Courses tool window. (`Ctrl+R` does nothing and the `Read aloud` menu item isn't on the Courses tool menu.)

What changed in L7 is that the new Courses tool brings the required reading snippets into the Courses tool via the `Continue` button (instead of forcing you to click the link within the textbook and read in another panel). You can click on the heading at the top of the required reading (left of the `Continue` button) to open it in a new panel, and then `Ctrl+R` will work as it always did.

Unless I'm mistaken or don't understand, in which case, please correct me.

I'm still investigating the bookmarks issue. 

Posts 556
Brent Hoefling | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 25 2016 11:04 AM

Eli Evans:

The previous incarnation of the Courses tool required you to opened required readings for Mobile Ed courses in another window, and that window supported reading aloud. As far as I can tell, the Courses tool in 6.x Logos Now never supported reading aloud within the Courses tool window. (`Ctrl+R` does nothing and the `Read aloud` menu item isn't on the Courses tool menu.)

What changed in L7 is that the new Courses tool brings the required reading snippets into the Courses tool via the `Continue` button (instead of forcing you to click the link within the textbook and read in another panel). You can click on the heading at the top of the required reading (left of the `Continue` button) to open it in a new panel, and then `Ctrl+R` will work as it always did.

Unless I'm mistaken or don't understand, in which case, please correct me.

I'm still investigating the bookmarks issue. 

you got it correct, again, thank you. all part of the read/seen tracking paradigm Courses LN vs. the progress tracking paradigm in L7.

The read/seen is done in another window (allowing Read aloud) when clicking the link in the course vs. Courses L7 everything in the tool window.

Posts 791
LogosEmployee
Eli Evans (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 25 2016 11:07 AM

(I do notice that clicking the resource reading hyperlink in the top of the new Courses tool doesn't show the start and end reading bars in the new window that opens up, though, so we'll look into that. It should.)

Posts 10580
Forum MVP
Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 25 2016 1:55 PM

Eli Evans:
You can click on the heading at the top of the required reading (left of the `Continue` button) to open it in a new panel

Thank you for that information. For me, that is quite valuable.

Posts 102
Andrew Malone | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 25 2016 4:37 PM

SineNomine:

Let's suppose John Smith bought a 3.5" diskette version of Logos 1.6, and never bought another product from Faithlife ever again...

Thanks for helping spot some of the shortcomings in my analogy.  Big Smile

Posts 556
Brent Hoefling | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 25 2016 7:00 PM

Eli Evans:

(I do notice that clicking the resource reading hyperlink in the top of the new Courses tool doesn't show the start and end reading bars in the new window that opens up, though, so we'll look into that. It should.)

please and thank you

Posts 3086
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 25 2016 7:08 PM

Andrew Malone:
SineNomine:
Let's suppose John Smith bought a 3.5" diskette version of Logos 1.6, and never bought another product from Faithlife ever again...
Thanks for helping spot some of the shortcomings in my analogy.  Big Smile

You're very welcome. Thinking through all of this stuff was actually kind of fun. Smile

Posts 2833
Doc B | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 25 2016 8:05 PM

Peter, while I generally agree with your concerns about the direction of the company itself, I have had an entirely different experience with the MVPs. As you can see from my tagline, they have been universally helpful, even when I have asked stupid questions.

On the other hand, I have indeed seen egregious behavior by forum members, but to my recollection, none of them have been MVPs. (I've even been blasted by a FL employee...unprofessionally...but not an MVP.) Even the more "direct" MVPs, like MJ and Bama, are always helpful, including when they have strongly disagreed with me (which has happened more than a few times). 

Don't confuse a handful of the regulars who are not MVPs (and can be rude at times) with the real thing.

My thanks to the various MVPs. Without them Logos would have died early. They were the only real help available.

Faithlife Corp. owes the MVPs free resources for life.

Posts 2833
Doc B | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 25 2016 8:06 PM

Denise:
Logos Membership (forgot its name) ... seems another turning point. Creating customer classes.

Amen to that!

My thanks to the various MVPs. Without them Logos would have died early. They were the only real help available.

Faithlife Corp. owes the MVPs free resources for life.

Posts 102
Andrew Malone | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 25 2016 9:46 PM

Peter Lever:

I remember the old days when ... Bob would regularly come to the forums to address concerns of the customers

You can, of course, look at Bob's 'Forum Activity' and see whether the frequency of his posts is satisfactory. I don't know what's reasonable for a CEO, but he doesn't appear to be permanently cloistered behind a firewall.

Posts 354
Batman | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 25 2016 10:10 PM

Once again Faithlife, Logos, or whatever they are being called this week, has made at best "ambiguous" statements in ads.
This is far too frequent. I'm not a long time user-- only 6 years. But, I cannot tell how many "oh, we didn't mean that" or "Oops, we are sorry for the confusion" apologies for advertising errors. 
Maybe in the scheme of things, it's not very often, but, at the same time, it happens far too often, once again leading me to question the company's integrity. And every time it's the same excuse "the wording is confusing".
Sorry, but, that's where I am. Nothing bar God telling me it is unintentional will change that. The reason? It's far too often. Especially when advertising wording has been addressed and apologized for and there it comes again. And again. 

Graham Owen:

Peter Lever:
I never had to worry about 'fine print' with Logos

For me it has been 20 years and personally I still think the statement is true.

Let's be honest the road with Logos as it was and Faithlife now has always had bumps. I took out the Logos Now subscription on a trust basis and whilst I no longer technically own part of the package I am happy with the decision.

I agree that the wording is confusing as we transition, I read it three times, saw a post here that I thought I understood then still asked a question in that post.

Based on history, I expect Bob to show up and apologise for the errors made as the company takes the next step and that the bumps will get smoothed.

Then we can all get back to what Logos does best, Bible Study.

Posts 354
Batman | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 25 2016 10:10 PM

Once again Faithlife, Logos, or whatever they are being called this week, has made at best "ambiguous" statements in ads.
This is far too frequent. I'm not a long time user-- only 6 years. But, I cannot tell how many "oh, we didn't mean that" or "Oops, we are sorry for the confusion" apologies for advertising errors. 
Maybe in the scheme of things, it's not very often, but, at the same time, it happens far too often, once again leading me to question the company's integrity. And every time it's the same excuse "the wording is confusing".
Sorry, but, that's where I am. Nothing bar God telling me it is unintentional will change that. The reason? It's far too often. Especially when advertising wording has been addressed and apologized for and there it comes again. And again. 

Graham Owen:

Peter Lever:
I never had to worry about 'fine print' with Logos

For me it has been 20 years and personally I still think the statement is true.

Let's be honest the road with Logos as it was and Faithlife now has always had bumps. I took out the Logos Now subscription on a trust basis and whilst I no longer technically own part of the package I am happy with the decision.

I agree that the wording is confusing as we transition, I read it three times, saw a post here that I thought I understood then still asked a question in that post.

Based on history, I expect Bob to show up and apologise for the errors made as the company takes the next step and that the bumps will get smoothed.

Then we can all get back to what Logos does best, Bible Study.

Posts 4628
Forum MVP
Fred Chapman | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 26 2016 4:56 AM

Andrew Malone:
You can, of course, look at Bob's 'Forum Activity' and see whether the frequency of his posts is satisfactory. I don't know what's reasonable for a CEO, but he doesn't appear to be permanently cloistered behind a firewall.

I and many other users can tell you that Bob is one of the most accessible CEO's I've interacted with. He is busy, but if you feel the need to reach out to him, he will get back to you.

Posts 22
Shannon Martin | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 26 2016 5:42 AM

Batman:

Once again Faithlife, Logos, or whatever they are being called this week, has made at best "ambiguous" statements in ads.
This is far too frequent. I'm not a long time user-- only 6 years. But, I cannot tell how many "oh, we didn't mean that" or "Oops, we are sorry for the confusion" apologies for advertising errors. 
Maybe in the scheme of things, it's not very often, but, at the same time, it happens far too often, once again leading me to question the company's integrity. And every time it's the same excuse "the wording is confusing".
Sorry, but, that's where I am. Nothing bar God telling me it is unintentional will change that. The reason? It's far too often. Especially when advertising wording has been addressed and apologized for and there it comes again. And again. 

Graham Owen:

Logos is, by its nature, a somewhat complex company with a lot of moving parts.

I have never seen any advertising that a reasonable person would misunderstand.

Wow. "Nothing but God telling me?" is this satire?

Posts 58
Dave M | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 26 2016 5:56 AM

Perfectly said.

Posts 5091
DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 26 2016 5:58 AM

Peter Lever:
I am customer of ten years. I remember the old days when i was treated like a King.

I am a customer of 15 years via logos.com but bought my first product 16 years ago in a christian bookstore. I totally agree with you Logos as it was back in those days is long dead and has been replaced by Faithlife. I think it really became clear to me that this company had losts it's way when FL posted on the forums the idea of starting a dating agency.  But you are spot on this company has a clear communications issue.  And form experience it stems from poor internal communications and a lack of control over what it puts to 'press'. There is a clear disconnect between those who make product decisions and those who write the copy that gets published on blogs and product pages and this disconnect is further exasperated by sales staff who, given the feedback of customer experiences posted here on the forums, seem to be on a whole other page again. The very worst example of though that I as a customer do find offensive is their blatant lie on the Vyrso website about the features and benefits of Vyrso books. Claims are made that can not be backed up.  By their own admission Logos does not markup Vyrso books in the same way that it marks up Logos books, yet they make claims made about Vyrso books that are false because only books tagged to the Logos standard can be guaranteed to accurately display the correct bible verse when a scripture reference is given in a book.

Peter Lever:
I wish some of the MVP replies in the forums were more empathetic.

I agree with you here also Peter.  For the most part the majority of MVP's are very helpful and treat their fellow customers with respect but there is a minority element amongst the MVP's who are at times not only lacking empathy, but who are down right rude and condescending in the way they speak to their fellow customer. It's all simply because the customer differs in their exerience of the software or of the company. But can I stress this is only a very small minority of MVP's.

 

Posts 10223
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 26 2016 6:49 AM

Goodness, Shannon, we must live on different planets!  I gave up on reading the 'New Feature:' threads during L6 and now L7. They answer almost no questions. I skip over the Logos.com entry ... even logged in, it's like a loud speaker blaring into the night with no idea who's there.  The words are sugary but inexact ... meaning what?  And the product pages ... the unmet opportunity to explain value. To SELL.

And doc ... goodness ... blatant lie??  Today, no one lies. Mis-states. Exagerates.  Unintionally mis-spoke.  Like that.

But most interesting are your typos. They're the exact same typos I make.  I wonder if it's how language is stored in the brain.


Posts 71
Jeffrey Visser | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 26 2016 9:07 AM

Bobby Terhune:
Publishers are now pushing for a higher percentage of a books list price for royalties, some as high a 70% of list price according to Bob.

It seems odd that this is being blamed on the publishers when other providers such as Google and Amazon can sell the same electronic books for 30%-70% less on a consistent basis. In one case, I bought a set of books on amazon for less than 1/6th the cost of Logos.

Posts 368
LogosEmployee
Adam Borries (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 26 2016 9:11 AM

Thanks for your feedback, Denise. I'd love to hear some specifics from you.

Denise:
I gave up on reading the 'New Feature:' threads during L6 and now L7. They answer almost no questions.

I'm part of the team that maintains the "New Feature" threads. We want them to be as useful as possible. What information have we left out of the initial post that you would find necessary? What questions do you have that are unanswered? 

Denise:
the product pages ... the unmet opportunity to explain value.

Again, on each base package page, we try to strike a balance of giving broad explanations of benefits and capabilities, with specific reasons and resources. This isn't always easy--since each person who visits these pages values different aspects of Logos, it can be hard to guess what will highlight the most value for the most people. Where have we missed the mark?

Adam Borries | Product Manager, Logos desktop application

Message me on Faithlife.com >>

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