Making Logos usable for academic research

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Posts 3154
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 25 2016 6:16 AM

Cynthia in Florida:
I'm sorry but I have to disagree with this.  Just last week I  came on here and complained of the very same thing because I couldnt find pages on my resources that I needed to cite.  In turning on page numbers, even then I was given suggestions on how to find accurate page numbers by going to a print source on google or Amazon.  This IS a problem that really needs to be addressed.  We should be able to trust that what we are citing is accurate and we should be able to FIND proper citing for our resources.  Part of me can't believe this is even a conversation we are having.

Can you give some examples of Logos resources that do not have page numbers in the Logos editions but do in print?

Posts 234
Colin | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 25 2016 6:43 AM

I'm a little bewildered. I just finished my PhD - it was signed off yesterday :) I used Logos extensively and never had any issues with page numbers like those some are speaking of here. It's true that the reference details weren't always entirely sufficient (because I decided to cite as if I was working from the physical resource rather than logos research systems) but since I had to do a lot of work with footnotes and the bibliography for everything I cited I didn't think it was too much trouble to do a little checking online. 

More than that, the search functionality of logos enabled me to make accurate assertions on the basis of a few clicks which I would have had to spend hours of reading physical books to discover. 

So my testimony is that not only is logos usable for academic research, it is virtually indispensable! 

Colin

Posts 71
Jeffrey Visser | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 25 2016 7:39 AM

Andrew Malone:
At the risk of sounding condenscending – and aimed as much to help other readers as Jeffrey – I sometimes encounter resources where page numbers aren't set to display. Is it possible that your resources have the page 'milestones' included but they're just not showing?

This doesn't make sense, in my case, since some resources show page numbers and other's don't.  But for the sake of argument, where is the setting that I should be verifying to make sure page numbers always show up?  It would be great if this is the case.

Posts 71
Jeffrey Visser | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 25 2016 7:45 AM

Colin:
I just finished my PhD - it was signed off yesterday :)

Congratulations.  What was your PhD in?  

Colin:
I used Logos extensively and never had any issues with page numbers like those some are speaking of here.

It depends on the resource.  Some are great with page numbers and other's are not.  This also shows up with assigned readings that we are supposed to do.  Without page numbers, it is difficult to ensure I read the correct pages.

Colin:

More than that, the search functionality of logos enabled me to make accurate assertions on the basis of a few clicks which I would have had to spend hours of reading physical books to discover. 

So my testimony is that not only is logos usable for academic research, it is virtually indispensable! 

This I agree with 100%.  Logos is indispensable when doing research.  If it wasn't so useful I wouldn't have spent so much money in Logos over the years.  I would rather have no page numbers than lo Logos.  But they can improve the product greatly by cleaning up their metadata. 

Posts 71
Jeffrey Visser | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 25 2016 7:49 AM

MJ. Smith:
For in-text citations of paraphrased material, provide the author and date, as for any APA Style reference.

Most of my work must be done in SBL or Chicago style.  While there are similar exceptions for ebooks in SBL, they are looked down upon by the professors.

Posts 1120
Sean | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 25 2016 8:10 AM

Jeffrey Visser:
This doesn't make sense, in my case, since some resources show page numbers and other's don't.  But for the sake of argument, where is the setting that I should be verifying to make sure page numbers always show up?  It would be great if this is the case.

Page numbers can be turned on and off under the three-circle "triangle" control for Visual Filters, which is (ironically) right by the box you input the page number or reference for a resource. Under that, there's an option for page numbers, which has an option for turning it on for all resources that have that feature.

But no, you are not mistaken that some works are missing page numbers. A year or two ago I bought Van Til's Christianity and Barthianism and it has none whatsoever. When I inquired as to why, I was told it was because it was an older, poorer quality Logos book. Given it's not a bestseller, it's not likely to ever be updated. But presently there's nothing on a product page to tell you if it's up to expected standards or not. You just have to buy and take your chances. Of course, you can return it if it's a deal-breaker, but it's very poor that the situation is allowed to stand as it is.

Posts 809
Cynthia in Florida | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 25 2016 8:16 AM

Jeffrey Visser:

Colin:
I just finished my PhD - it was signed off yesterday :)

Congratulations.  What was your PhD in?  

Colin:
I used Logos extensively and never had any issues with page numbers like those some are speaking of here.

It depends on the resource.  Some are great with page numbers and other's are not.  This also shows up with assigned readings that we are supposed to do.  Without page numbers, it is difficult to ensure I read the correct pages.

Colin:

More than that, the search functionality of logos enabled me to make accurate assertions on the basis of a few clicks which I would have had to spend hours of reading physical books to discover. 

So my testimony is that not only is logos usable for academic research, it is virtually indispensable! 

This I agree with 100%.  Logos is indispensable when doing research.  If it wasn't so useful I wouldn't have spent so much money in Logos over the years.  I would rather have no page numbers than lo Logos.  But they can improve the product greatly by cleaning up their metadata. 

Ditto

Cynthia

Romans 8:28-38

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Fr Devin Roza | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 25 2016 8:24 AM

Jeffrey Visser:

It depends on the resource.  Some are great with page numbers and other's are not.  This also shows up with assigned readings that we are supposed to do.  Without page numbers, it is difficult to ensure I read the correct pages.

I use Verbum all the time for academic work, and have hardly ever had trouble with page numbers.

You can turn them on in all of your resources with one click.

Just open up the Visual Filters in any book, and right click or click on the arrow at the right of the option to "Show page numbers". A submenu will appear that will allow you to "Show in all appropriate resources." If you click on that, it will turn on page numbers in all of your books.

Posts 943
Everett Headley | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 25 2016 8:40 AM

I think that this is indicative of a larger QA problem that Logos has.  I have posted numerous times before with examples of this sloppy work.  IF the big claim of Logos is that everything is linked, but some (many?) link are broken or not even there, how well does that work out?  I have had brand new books ship with no hyperlink to another resource and Bible tags just left out.

I appreciate the constant updates to resources, although I don't know exactly what is being fixed.

Logos should step up and create a dept (doesn't even have to be huge) of someone to review these problems.  The added work would greatly increase the quality and value of what many of us have invested thousands of dollars into.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 25 2016 10:57 AM

Everett Headley:
Bible tags just left out.

This shouldn't happen in Logos books although it may in Vyrso. Do you have some examples? I ask because when I find this level of error with any frequency in a new book, it gets corrected quickly.

I strongly agree that they need to be more precise as to the level of linkage we can expect in a resource.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 234
Colin | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 25 2016 1:52 PM

Thanks Jeffrey. My PhD was in Old Testament. My subject was Christ in the OT. I approached that by comparing Calvin's commentary on Zechariah with Luther's and that of the wonderfully named Theodore of Mopsuestia! 

I'm far from being a power user but was able to find page numbers in my primary texts and in the journals I referred to. I guess I just happened to be using books which are appropriately paginated. I don't doubt that there are some which are not. I certainly sent through a lot of typos during my research and continue to do so almost every day (3 today I think). 

I guess I reacted against the title of the thread which is a little strong I think. Maybe it could have been 'making all resources in logos usable for academic research' or even a 'more' before the usable. 

Colin

Posts 1216
Matt Hamrick | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 25 2016 2:03 PM

Fr Devin Roza:

Jeffrey Visser:

It depends on the resource.  Some are great with page numbers and other's are not.  This also shows up with assigned readings that we are supposed to do.  Without page numbers, it is difficult to ensure I read the correct pages.

I use Verbum all the time for academic work, and have hardly ever had trouble with page numbers.

You can turn them on in all of your resources with one click.

Just open up the Visual Filters in any book, and right click or click on the arrow at the right of the option to "Show page numbers". A submenu will appear that will allow you to "Show in all appropriate resources." If you click on that, it will turn on page numbers in all of your books.

This is not true for resources that are not paginated. There are several.

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Fr Devin Roza | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 25 2016 2:22 PM

Matt Hamrick:

This is not true for resources that are not paginated. There are several.

Yes, there are, and hopefully that can be fixed. That being said, I have used the program extensively for academic work, and have practically never had academic resources without page numbers. Maybe I've just been fortunate. 

The Bibliographical information for me has been another story, as it has often been unreliable or incomplete. As a result, I rarely look to Verbum for bibliographical information, as I simply don't trust it to be as complete and reliable as other sources. 

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 25 2016 2:51 PM

Matt Hamrick:
This is not true for resources that are not paginated. There are several.

I almost never come across resources that aren't paginated (apart from Bibles and Ancient Manuscripts, of course). But when I checked in my library I found over 1,000 resources that aren't paginated, even when I excluded things like MobileEd. To be fair, a number are digital first, but here's a small sample of ones that might matter for academic research:

  • The Archaeological Encyclopedia of the Holy Land
  • BAR journals and the Christian History Magazine
  • The College Press NIV Commentary (NT)
  • The IVP NT Commentary Series
  • IVP Bible Background Commentary series.
  • The Collision of Early Christianity and Judaism in Revelation 11
  • Almost everything by van Til.
  • Dictionary of Bible Themes
  • A Dictionary of Biblical Tradition in English Literature

Interestingly I also saw Schanbel's, Acts: Expanded Digital Edition, which presumably has never been given page numbers, despite having a print equivalent.

Posts 102
Andrew Malone | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 25 2016 4:57 PM

Thanks to those who've shown how to turn on page numbers globally (where available). That's a nice context menu I hadn't met before. Big Smile

Mark Barnes:

Interestingly I also saw Schanbel's, Acts: Expanded Digital Edition, which presumably has never been given page numbers, despite having a print equivalent.

Yes, works like this are a whole new category, aren't they. As per various comments above:

  • If someone gives you a page number, it makes it pretty impossible to find where you should be. (At least in a commentary you can take a guess on which passage you should be reading!)
  • If you want to give someone a page number:
    • You'll have to check the print equivalent to find that page number...
    • ...and also be unsure as to whether what you're currently reading in the Expanded Digital Edition even has the corresponding text in the print edition!

As a fan of Acts and of Schnabel, I think it's fabulous to have access to his extra insights. But, for some teaching and learning purposes, this version becomes a whole new class of resource, not completely comparable to the printed ZECNT volume.

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 25 2016 5:34 PM

Jeffrey Visser:
 Journals are notoriously bad.

Many/most of the older journals were done by Galaxie Software. The bibliographic data in these was/is atrocious, and page numbers were totally lacking. This poor quality was one reason FL took over journal publication. FL has been slowly adding the necessary tagging to these volumes—perhaps not as fast as most of us would prefer, but it is getting done, at least I think it is being done.

Posts 165
Clifford B. Kvidahl | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 25 2016 6:29 PM

Mark Barnes:

Interestingly I also saw Schanbel's, Acts: Expanded Digital Edition, which presumably has never been given page numbers, despite having a print equivalent.

The reason for this is because the digital and print are not exactly the same—the digital adds more content that the print version had to exclude.

Cliff

Posts 1022
Keith Pang | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 25 2016 6:40 PM

Will all resources have page numbers eventually? 

Shalom, in Christ, Keith. Check out my music www.soundcloud.com/kpang808

Posts 8601
TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 25 2016 6:48 PM

Keith Pang:

Will all resources have page numbers eventually? 

While I hope and believe that they will, the case may not be that easy.  First: there are thousands of resources - so time is a factor.  Second: There are multiple contracts, and I personally wonder if these contracts allow for ongoing updates.  They might, but I simply don't know.

Short answer: I hope so.

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Posts 3154
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 25 2016 6:54 PM

Keith Pang:

Will all resources have page numbers eventually? 

No, and likely not just because some resources are not produced from print material that is paginated.

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