Bob: Why can't you satisfy both parties?

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This post has 14 Replies | 1 Follower

Posts 1426
Wild Eagle | Forum Activity | Posted: Sun, Aug 28 2016 1:16 PM

Yes, we hear constantly that it cost money for ongoing support for cloud/server services. Some of us like to own things, and some rent.

The problem with the ownership is that we dont know if you continue to support it in the "near future". Also, we don't want to pay double for the features.

The problem with rent is that after years of renting, if we stop by any financial difficulties, we loose all features. 

Why can't you satisfy both parties?

Why cant we have three options instead of two:

1. Logos Now (Full Feature set with Cloud) + Bonus (Early access of  L8 features) - We have already

2. Full Feature set ownership (not including Cloud services) We have already

3. Cloud subscription without offline Full Feature set for $3-5 per month. New

If you would add the 3rd option, then I could own Full Feature set, while still enjoying with features which would require server/cloud services. 

In this way you would have pretty much same financial support (if not more)

  • LN: $100 per year
  • Full Feature Set (150 + ($3-5 per month))

I think it would be win win situation for both parties 

"No man is greater than his prayer life. The pastor who is not praying is playing; the people who are not praying are straying." Leonard Ravenhill 

Posts 137
Raymond Urne | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 28 2016 1:19 PM

Yes

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 28 2016 2:46 PM

Wild Eagle:
I think it would be win win situation for both parties 

I thought the same thing a few minutes ago, and nearly posted it.

However, I didn't post it because that would mean Full Feature Set people would be locked into the L7 features, and would never benefit from the new Logos Now features that are coming. I think for most people that's quite an unattractive proposition. You'd own everything in Logos 7.0, but by the time Logos 7.7 comes out, you're going to feel quite left out.

Posts 235
Tom Geswein | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 28 2016 5:40 PM

I was under the impression that when you purchase the Full Feature Set (now at 7.0), that you would receive all new features in all releases up to, but not including, 8.0.  Am I wrong in my assumption?  From your post, Mark, I take it that you only get what is currently available when you purchase the FFS.

"It seems our problems solve themselves when we look beyond us to those truly in hell."  -  Beyond Our Suffering - AILD

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Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 28 2016 5:50 PM

Tom Geswein:
I was under the impression that when you purchase the Full Feature Set (now at 7.0), that you would receive all new features in all releases up to, but not including, 8.0.  Am I wrong in my assumption?

Yes, this is a wrong assumption.

Tom Geswein:
From your post, Mark, I take it that you only get what is currently available when you purchase the FFS.

Yes, this is the case.

Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God

Posts 196
Stephen Terlizzi | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 28 2016 6:57 PM

Bruce Dunning:

Tom Geswein:
I was under the impression that when you purchase the Full Feature Set (now at 7.0), that you would receive all new features in all releases up to, but not including, 8.0.  Am I wrong in my assumption?

Yes, this is a wrong assumption.

Tom Geswein:
From your post, Mark, I take it that you only get what is currently available when you purchase the FFS.

Yes, this is the case.

With Logos 5, a perpetual license holder (i.e. bought the software) received the perpetual license, bug fixes, and minor feature updates until the release of Logos 6. As of Logos 6 and the introduction of Logos Now, Faithlife stripped out the minor feature updates from the purchase of a perpetual license and provided early access to Logos 7 features in a new subscription service called Logos Now. The Logos 6 perpetual license holder only received the perpetual license for Logos 6 functionality and bug fixes. The same holds true for Logos 7 perpetual license holders.

You need to subscribe to Logos Now in order to gain temporary access (i.e. subscription-based not a perpetual license) to any further feature updates, including minor feature updates that would normally be available under other licensing+bundled maintenance models. The problem is that there currently is no model in which Logos 7 perpetual license holders can subscribe and get additional perpetual licenses for the new features until the release and subsequent purchase of Logos 8. Also, Faithlife has made a business decision to not offer any perpetual licenses for features that significantly use cloud-based resources.

I hope this helps.

Agape,

Steve

Posts 235
Tom Geswein | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 28 2016 7:30 PM

So there is a downside to either purchase option: buy the FFS and not receive any later updates, or purchase a Logos Now license and never own the software.  Sounds to me like the "Full Feature Set" should be labeled the "Currently full feature set - soon to be partial feature set."  I can't say I like either option.  (Kinda feels like our current presidential election cycle - choose the lesser of two evils.)

Or I guess you could purchase both to alleviate the downside.

"It seems our problems solve themselves when we look beyond us to those truly in hell."  -  Beyond Our Suffering - AILD

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 28 2016 7:41 PM

Tom Geswein:
Sounds to me like the "Full Feature Set" should be labeled the "Currently full feature set - soon to be partial feature set."

Also could add the word "ownable" since Logos Now subscription includes some server based features that currently cannot be owned on a personal computer since they need cloud based server(s) for data access and processing.

Keep Smiling Smile

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 29 2016 1:50 AM

Stephen Terlizzi:
As of Logos 6 and the introduction of Logos Now, Faithlife stripped out the minor feature updates from the purchase of a perpetual license and provided early access to Logos 7 features in a new subscription service called Logos Now. The Logos 6 perpetual license holder only received the perpetual license for Logos 6 functionality and bug fixes. The same holds true for Logos 7 perpetual license holders.

This is NOT correct (or at least it's not the whole truth). Faithlife did NOT strip out minor feature updates from L6 onwards.

It is much more accurate to say that with the introduction of Logos Now, Faithlife stopped holding back major feature updates until the next version of Logos but gave them to Logos Now members immediately. However, they continued to provide minor feature updates to all customers, even non-members.

Here are a list of minor improvements that non-members enjoyed (not including hundreds of bug fixes):

  • 6.0a
    • Atlases now accessible from the context menu
    • Print/Export available for Factbook
    • Save as Passage List available from Factbook
    • Export to Keynote from Visual Copy
  • 6.0b
    • Added CTRL+F support to Atlases
    • Added spell checking to clippings.
    • Show highlighting information in Info Panel
    • Added reading status to Library
  • 6.1
    • Performance optimisations in several areas
  • 6.2
    • Added Semantic roles to Factbook
    • Added Inline Search
    • Added Aramaic lemma data to BWS
    • Added Prayer Lists for people without a base package.
    • Added 1:1 media to Visual Copy
  • 6.3
    • Resource updates no longer require you to restart Logos.
    • Added “By Author” sort to the Journals section of Passage Guide.
    • Much improved tagging UI in the Library
    • A few performance improvements.
  • 6.4
    • Added "delete unlicensed resources"
    • Re-enabled gestures
    • Allow highlighting in resource-specific notes.
    • Significantly improved help file.
    • Revamped the Information Tool
    • Added a Sermons section to Factbook and Topic Guide.
  • 6.5
    • More improvements to the Information Tool
    • Show previews of search results in "Your Documents"
  • 6.6
    • Revamped the Citation Tool
    • User-created sermons now appear in the Sermons section of Guides/Factbook
    • Added Korean language.
    • Re-organised visual filter menu so filters can be searched for and sections collapsed

I could go on (that's only about half the 6.x releases), but you get the idea: Logos 7 users will still get minor feature updates, just like Logos 6 users did and just like Logos 5 users did. Logos Now members are getting something that no-one got before, they're not getting stuff at the expense of non-members.

Posts 228
Graham Owen | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 29 2016 7:03 AM

Mark Barnes:

I thought the same thing a few minutes ago, and nearly posted it.

However, I didn't post it because that would mean Full Feature Set people would be locked into the L7 features,

From a Faithlife perspective this would also add a level of complexity that they are almost certainly trying to avoid.

They already have:

  • Ownership Model - Full Feature Set plus Resources
  • Cloud Model - Logos Cloud you rent everything
  • Hybrid Cloud - Features Rented Resources Owned

If they added a fourth option the choices for existing and new customers would multiply and the confusion about the best deal will grow. There would also be pressure for a fifth option as there will always be another approach that they could add...

Personally I see this upgrade as a key part of the maturing of the current models in terms of customer understanding. I started on the Logos Now route not having a clear idea about what it would mean at the next upgrade. To be honest I'm not sure that Faithlife were able to clearly articulate what it would mean. One week after upgrade my view is that they have got the balance right, there are a few questions that still need answers and there is some terminology that I think should be clearer (I hate "Temporary License" as it is ambiguous in my opinion).

For a business that is addressing the Christian market I think Faithlife gets the balance about right. They make some mistakes, they listen and they fix them. 

Considering the complexity of the product I think the current Logos Now hybrid cloud model works.

  • I buy the resources that I want.
  • I use the FREE Logos Software to read, manage and search them.
  • I rent the extra analytical functions that Logos has to exploit the power in the resources.

A couple of years ago Bob mentioned the idea of a virtual assistant, for me Logos Now has become the first step on this journey. I own my books and have a reader that helps me do my own study. The extra features are Logos doing some of the heavy lifting like a personal assistant.

The unseen side here will be the demands of the publishers who own the resources, where Faithlife has been able to adapt to the increasing pressure for subscription models from consumers many publishers will still have a business model that depends on a revenue flow linked to an upfront spike when titles are published. The "both parties" in this question could just as easily be the Logos user and the publisher as different types of Logos user.

Posts 196
Stephen Terlizzi | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 29 2016 7:05 AM

Mark Barnes:

Stephen Terlizzi:
As of Logos 6 and the introduction of Logos Now, Faithlife stripped out the minor feature updates from the purchase of a perpetual license and provided early access to Logos 7 features in a new subscription service called Logos Now. The Logos 6 perpetual license holder only received the perpetual license for Logos 6 functionality and bug fixes. The same holds true for Logos 7 perpetual license holders.

This is NOT correct (or at least it's not the whole truth). Faithlife did NOT strip out minor feature updates from L6 onwards.

It is much more accurate to say that with the introduction of Logos Now, Faithlife stopped holding back major feature updates until the next version of Logos but gave them to Logos Now members immediately. However, they continued to provide minor feature updates to all customers, even non-members.

Here are a list of minor improvements that non-members enjoyed (not including hundreds of bug fixes):

  • 6.0a
    • Atlases now accessible from the context menu
    • Print/Export available for Factbook
    • Save as Passage List available from Factbook
    • Export to Keynote from Visual Copy
  • 6.0b
    • Added CTRL+F support to Atlases
    • Added spell checking to clippings.
    • Show highlighting information in Info Panel
    • Added reading status to Library
  • 6.1
    • Performance optimisations in several areas
  • 6.2
    • Added Semantic roles to Factbook
    • Added Inline Search
    • Added Aramaic lemma data to BWS
    • Added Prayer Lists for people without a base package.
    • Added 1:1 media to Visual Copy
  • 6.3
    • Resource updates no longer require you to restart Logos.
    • Added “By Author” sort to the Journals section of Passage Guide.
    • Much improved tagging UI in the Library
    • A few performance improvements.
  • 6.4
    • Added "delete unlicensed resources"
    • Re-enabled gestures
    • Allow highlighting in resource-specific notes.
    • Significantly improved help file.
    • Revamped the Information Tool
    • Added a Sermons section to Factbook and Topic Guide.
  • 6.5
    • More improvements to the Information Tool
    • Show previews of search results in "Your Documents"
  • 6.6
    • Revamped the Citation Tool
    • User-created sermons now appear in the Sermons section of Guides/Factbook
    • Added Korean language.
    • Re-organised visual filter menu so filters can be searched for and sections collapsed

I could go on (that's only about half the 6.x releases), but you get the idea: Logos 7 users will still get minor feature updates, just like Logos 6 users did and just like Logos 5 users did. Logos Now members are getting something that no-one got before, they're not getting stuff at the expense of non-members.

You may be correct that they included very minor features (more like bug fixes and improvements) and my impression may be wrong; however, it is my impression as a very active Logos customer. My feeling is and still remains that a perpetual license customer was shortchanged during the Logos 6 product lifecycle after the Logos Now introduction. My hope is that we will see some more love for perpetual license customers instead of the steady drumbeat of marketing requests for more money from us for a Logos Now subscription Just my humble opinion.

Agape,

Steve

Posts 352
Cynthia Tucker | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 29 2016 11:17 AM

Graham Owen:

Considering the complexity of the product I think the current Logos Now hybrid cloud model works.

  • I buy the resources that I want.
  • I use the FREE Logos Software to read, manage and search them.
  • I rent the extra analytical functions that Logos has to exploit the power in the resources.

A couple of years ago Bob mentioned the idea of a virtual assistant, for me Logos Now has become the first step on this journey. I own my books and have a reader that helps me do my own study. The extra features are Logos doing some of the heavy lifting like a personal assistant.

Completely agree.

Author of the Chronological Word Truth Life Bible Series

WordTruthLifeBible.com

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 29 2016 11:47 AM

Stephen Terlizzi:
My feeling is and still remains that a perpetual license customer was shortchanged during the Logos 6 product lifecycle after the Logos Now introduction. My hope is that we will see some more love for perpetual license customers instead of the steady drumbeat of marketing requests for more money from us for a Logos Now subscription Just my humble opinion.

If you want to check your theory, you should compare the release notes for Logos 5 to those for Logos 6. (As you do, remember that Logos 5 had a few bigger updates, whilst Logos 6 had a lot of smaller updates.) I think you'll find the two releases very similar in terms of what was added after release.

Posts 196
Stephen Terlizzi | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 29 2016 1:13 PM

Mark Barnes:

Stephen Terlizzi:
My feeling is and still remains that a perpetual license customer was shortchanged during the Logos 6 product lifecycle after the Logos Now introduction. My hope is that we will see some more love for perpetual license customers instead of the steady drumbeat of marketing requests for more money from us for a Logos Now subscription Just my humble opinion.

If you want to check your theory, you should compare the release notes for Logos 5 to those for Logos 6. (As you do, remember that Logos 5 had a few bigger updates, whilst Logos 6 had a lot of smaller updates.) I think you'll find the two releases very similar in terms of what was added after release.

Yeah, I think I am going to pass on that. I would rather fondly remember Logos 5 as-is, even if the reality doesn't match up to my favorable memories! LOL.

Agape,

Steve 

Posts 6422
DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 29 2016 4:58 PM

Tom Geswein:

So there is a downside to either purchase option: buy the FFS and not receive any later updates, or purchase a Logos Now license and never own the software.  Sounds to me like the "Full Feature Set" should be labeled the "Currently full feature set - soon to be partial feature set."  I can't say I like either option.  (Kinda feels like our current presidential election cycle - choose the lesser of two evils.)

Or I guess you could purchase both to alleviate the downside.

Haha I was thinking the same thing. At least the features remain "usuable" downloading future free engines.

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