Kolb & Wengert (Apology): paragraph number discrepancies

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Posts 44
Michael | Forum Activity | Posted: Thu, Sep 8 2016 7:29 PM

Hi All,

We were studying the Book of Concord in class the other day and those of us using Logos hit a problem with paragraph numbers (compared with those using the hard copy version).

As far as I know I have the latest resource (LLS:16.0.13; 2014-10-07T22:15:10Z; KLBCNCRD.logos4).

An example: Article XIII has 23 paragraphs in the hard copy version. For Article XIV the numbering should reset; i.e. restart from 1 and conclude at 5.

In Logos Article XIII correctly has 23 paragraphs, numbered 1-23. However, Article XIV does not restart at 1, but numbers the paragraphs 24-28. Article XV appears to correctly reset the paragraph number count, but XVI doesn't. (I haven't bothered to check further).

Is this a known bug, or a problem with my version of Kolb & Wengert? I know from posts back in 2014 that when the resource came out references were a bit buggy, but I would have thought that 2 years later they would have been ironed out?

Blessings,

Michael

Posts 4
Dan Mueller | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 15 2016 4:19 AM

I have also encountered this problem.

In short, there are various paragraph errors in both Book of Concords: Kolb and Wengert (LLS:16.0.13 2014-10-07T22:15:10Z KLBCNCRD.logos4) and Tappert (LLS:16.0.10 2014-10-03T17:27:07Z BKCONCRD.logos4).

  • Apology Article XIII is wrong — it starts at paragraph 24, not paragraph 1 (Ap: art. xiv, par. 24)
  • Apology Article XVI is wrong — it starts at paragraph 53, not paragraph 1 (Ap: art. xvi, par. 53)
  • Apology Article XVIII is wrong — it starts at paragraph 67, not paragraph 1 (Ap: art. xviii, par. 67)
  • Apology Article XIX is wrong — it starts at paragraph 77, not paragraph 1 (Ap: art. xix, par. 77)
  • Apology Article XX is wrong — it starts at paragraph 78, not paragraph 1 (Ap: art. xx, par. 78)
  • Apology Article XXVIII is wrong — it is missing paragraph 1 (Ap: art. xxviii)

Please fix these asap!

Peace in Christ, Dan

Posts 959
Yasmin Stephen | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 15 2016 11:20 AM

The General forum would probably be a better place to post this query, as it will get more visibility. I don't know how it can be moved at this point - a Faithlife employee or an MVP may have to do it - so you're probably better off cross-posting on the General forum instead of waiting for someone to move it..

Posts 1689
Ken McGuire | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 15 2016 12:32 PM

There are multiple ways of citing the Apology. Current editions line up the articles with numbers to line up with the articles in the Augsburg Confession. But really, some articles are covered much more than others, because there was not explicit disagreement with Rome on the Trinity, for example. Not an expert, but from looking at 19th century Lutheran books, it appears that the was an older way of citing the articles, only numbering the longer ones. In the influential 19th century edition of J.T. Mueller, both numbering systems are used, and if I recall correctly, it was Mueller who first added the paragraph numbers.

I suspect that the Logos BookOfConcord datatype was developed for the St. Louis Triglotta, and so maintains some of this older citing system - which, admittedly is a bit different from the way I learned it all in using Tappert, or the K&W I have also used extensively. I do wish that the Logos edition of K&W would at least include the same paragraph numbers in the text that are in the print edition, but as you see, it does not...

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Posts 1290
LogosEmployee
Kyle G. Anderson | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 15 2016 12:38 PM

This is because Apology of the Augsburg Confession itself has variations in how its numbered. For example, the McCain Readers Edition of the Book of Concord (LUTHRNCONFSS) has continuous paragraph numbering between Articles 13 and 14 (i.e. Article 14 begins at paragraph 24).

When we created our Book of Concord data type (i.e. citation and reference schema) we based it off continuous paragraph numbering. So its not as simple as simply changing the milestones. (It would require a complete overhaul of the entire data type.)

We've been able to work around this by mapping one system to the other and citing providing links that hit the proper target.

Posts 44
Michael | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 15 2016 5:23 PM

Kyle G. Anderson:
This is because Apology of the Augsburg Confession itself has variations in how its numbered. For example, the McCain Readers Edition of the Book of Concord (LUTHRNCONFSS) has continuous paragraph numbering between Articles 13 and 14 (i.e. Article 14 begins at paragraph 24).

Hi Kyle,

Thanks for explaining this. It helps to understand the reasoning behind it, even if I don't necessarily agree with it Smile.

From my perspective, when I buy a resource in Logos I expect "functional equivalence" with the hard copy. E.g. if I am in class and my lecturer wants me to read out paragraph x of article y, I need to be able to find the right place straight away. Similarly, if I am citing from Kolb and Wengert in an assignment, I want to be sure I am referencing correctly and not having to double-check everything in the hard-copy book...

As a student I can always borrow a hard-copy from the library, but not everyone purchasing Logos has this luxury. Is there no way of fixing this?

M.

Posts 1290
LogosEmployee
Kyle G. Anderson | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 16 2016 7:50 AM

Michael:

Kyle G. Anderson:
This is because Apology of the Augsburg Confession itself has variations in how its numbered. For example, the McCain Readers Edition of the Book of Concord (LUTHRNCONFSS) has continuous paragraph numbering between Articles 13 and 14 (i.e. Article 14 begins at paragraph 24).

Hi Kyle,

Thanks for explaining this. It helps to understand the reasoning behind it, even if I don't necessarily agree with it Smile.

From my perspective, when I buy a resource in Logos I expect "functional equivalence" with the hard copy. E.g. if I am in class and my lecturer wants me to read out paragraph x of article y, I need to be able to find the right place straight away. Similarly, if I am citing from Kolb and Wengert in an assignment, I want to be sure I am referencing correctly and not having to double-check everything in the hard-copy book...

As a student I can always borrow a hard-copy from the library, but not everyone purchasing Logos has this luxury. Is there no way of fixing this?

M.

I understand and I am sympathetic. There's not much I can do for updating or adjusting the data type that wouldn't simply create different issues.

I've looked into it a bit further and discovered there is marginal text in the print that we could place that would make it easier to identify alternative numbering schemes. (This is actually how we would produce it if it went into production today.) It's not a perfect solution by any means but I feel it would help those working with the different system.

Posts 353
Virgil Buttram | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 16 2016 8:02 AM

Kyle G. Anderson:

I understand and I am sympathetic. There's not much I can do for updating or adjusting the data type that wouldn't simply create different issues.

I've looked into it a bit further and discovered there is marginal text in the print that we could place that would make it easier to identify alternative numbering schemes. (This is actually how we would produce it if it went into production today.) It's not a perfect solution by any means but I feel it would help those working with the different system.

This would be a huge benefit if such an update could be provided.

Posts 1290
LogosEmployee
Kyle G. Anderson | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 16 2016 8:18 AM

Virgil Buttram:

Kyle G. Anderson:

I understand and I am sympathetic. There's not much I can do for updating or adjusting the data type that wouldn't simply create different issues.

I've looked into it a bit further and discovered there is marginal text in the print that we could place that would make it easier to identify alternative numbering schemes. (This is actually how we would produce it if it went into production today.) It's not a perfect solution by any means but I feel it would help those working with the different system.

This would be a huge benefit if such an update could be provided.

I'm planning on putting this into motion today. I found at least one other resource that would benefit from this as well.

Posts 44
Michael | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 16 2016 6:05 PM

Kyle G. Anderson:
I'm planning on putting this into motion today. I found at least one other resource that would benefit from this as well.

Thanks Kyle, that would be a great help and a reasonable compromise (I can understand that adjusting the data type would be problematic).

Please keep us advised of your progress.

Blessings,

Michael

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