Quoting Denise: "does Logos have resources on how people listen/learn with sermons?"

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Hamilton Ramos | Forum Activity | Posted: Fri, Sep 9 2016 6:52 AM

God bless:

Excellent question Denise. To me this is one of the kind of questions you make that sparks my mind.

You may want to look at:

https://www.logos.com/product/39932/transforming-preaching-the-sermon-as-a-channel-for-gods-word

https://www.logos.com/product/35512/excellence-in-preaching-studying-the-craft-of-leading-preachers

I would imagine that a sermon is tailored to fit the audience, the culture of the Church, and even the type of church.

Dr. Malphurs has an interesting table in one of his books:

I am not sure how the type of church relates its particular member's learning style in choosing media and content to deliver the sermon.

Good topic for further research, reflection and comment.

Some key words:

Christlikeness, 

transformation, development, maturity, reproduction, etc.

Thanks to Andrew Batishko (Faithlife) I was able to gather a bibliography that may be of use to you (it will be for me as I explore this topic):

Acevedo, J. (2013). Vital: churches changing communities and the world. Nashville: Abingdon Press.

Bain, D. (2009). Destination success. Grand Rapids, MI: Baker.

Barreto, E. D. (2015). Thinking Theologically. Minneapolis, MN: Fortress Press.

Barreto, E. D. (Ed.). (2015). Writing Theologically. Minneapolis, MN: Fortress Press.

Bass, D. C., & Dykstra, C. (Eds.). (2008). For Life Abundant: Practical Theology, Theological Education, and Christian Ministry. Grand Rapids, MI; Cambridge, U.K.: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.

Beall, J. L. (1976). Laying the foundation. Plainfield, N.J.: Logos International.

Berry, B. (2013). Criticism Bites: Dealing with, Responding to, and Learning from Your Critics. (R. Cunningham, Ed.). Loveland, CO: Group Publishing.

Bertrand, J. M. (2007). Rethinking worldview: learning to think, live, and speak in this world. Wheaton, IL: Crossway.

Bugbee, B. L. (2009). What you do best in the body of Christ: discover your spiritual gifts, personal style, and god-given passion. Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.

Carr, W. (1997). Handbook of Pastoral Studies: Learning and Practising Christian Ministry. London: SPCK.

Carson, M., Lewis, G., & Carson, B. (2009). Take the risk: learning to identify, choose, and live with acceptable risk. Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.

Chilton, B., & Good, D. (2009). Starting New Testament Study: Learning and Doing. London: Society for Promoting Christian Knowledge.

Cooke, P. (2012). Unique: telling your story in the age of brands and social media. Ventura, CA: Gospel Light.

Crenshaw, J. L. (1998). Education in ancient Israel: across the deadening silence. New York; London; Toronto; Sydney; Auckland: Yale University Press.

Crumly, C., Dietz, P., & d’ Angelo, S. (2014). Pedagogies for Student-Centered Learning: Online and On-Ground. Minneapolis, MN: Fortress Press.

Daniel, E. A., & Wade, J. W. (1999). Foundations for Christian education. Joplin, MO: College Press.

Dark, D., & Dark, J. D. (2009). The sacredness of questioning everything. Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.

Davis, A. M. (2013). An infinite journey: growing toward christlikeness. Greenville, SC: Ambassador International.

Dockery, D. S. (2012). Faith and learning. Nashville: B&H.

Estep, J. R., Jr, & Kim, J. H. (2010). Christian formation: integrating theology and human development. Nashville: B&H.

Evans, N. (2012). Developing in Ministry: A Handbook for Effective Christian Learning and Training. London: SPCK.

Faith, W. of. (2009). Making the most of your resources: how do i manage my time, energy, and money?. Nashville: Thomas Nelson.

Forman, R., Jones, J., & Miller, B. (2009). The leadership baton: an intentional strategy for developing leaders in your church. Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.

Gilligan, N. J. (2011). Transformed by the power of god: learning to be clothed in jesus christ. Shippensburg, PA: Destiny Image.

Hellerman, J. H. (2009). When the church was a family: recapturing jesus’ vision for authentic christian community. Nashville: B&H.

Heywood, D. (2013). Transforming Preaching: The Sermon as a Channel for God’s Word. London: SPCK.

Iorg, J. (2013). Seasons of a leader’s life: learning, leading, and leaving a legacy. Nashville: B&H.

Jones, B. F. (2014). Practicing Christian Doctrine: An Introduction to Thinking and Living Theologically. Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Academic.

Kandiah, K. (2008). Twenty four: integrating faith and real life. Crownhill, Milton Keynes: Authentic Media.

Lambert, D. (2010). Teaching that makes a difference. Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.

Laurie, G. (2012). Worldview: learning to think and live biblically. Dana Point, CA: Kerygma Publishing—Allen David Books.

Lauterbach, M. (2003). The Transforming Community. Carol Stream, IL: Reformation & Revival Ministries.

LeFever, M. (2011). Creative teaching methods. Colorado Springs, CO: David C Cook.

LeFever, M. (2011). Learning styles. Colorado Springs, CO: David C Cook.

Lingenfelter, J. E., & Lingenfelter, S. G. (2003). Teaching cross-culturally: an incarnational model for learning and teaching. Grand Rapids, MI: Baker.

Littlejohn, R., & Evans, C. T. (2006). Wisdom and eloquence: a christian paradigm for classical learning. Wheaton, IL: Crossway.

Loewen, N., Duncanson-Hales, C., & Lester, G. B. (2014). Effective Social Learning: A Collaborative, Globally-Networked Pedagogy. Minneapolis, MN: Fortress Press.

Lutzer, E. W. (2002). Who are you to judge? learning to distinguish between truths, half-truths, and lies. Chicago: Moody Publishers.

Malphurs, A. (2013). Advanced Strategic Planning: A 21st-Century Model for Church and Ministry Leaders (Third edition). Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books.

Osborne, L. (2012). Accidental pharisees: avoiding pride, exclusivity, and the other dangers of overzealous faith. Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.

Raschke, C. (2008). GloboChrist: The Great Commission Takes a Postmodern Turn. Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Academic.

Richmond, C. F., & Lawson, M. (2010). Audio, video and media in the ministry. Nashville: Thomas Nelson.

Sample, T. (2005). Powerful persuasion: multimedia witness in christian worship. Nashville: Abingdon Press.

Seymour, J. L. (2014). Teaching the way of jesus: educating christians for faithful living. Nashville: Abingdon Press.

Shaw, P. (2014). Transforming Theological Education: A Practical Handbook for Integrative Learning. Cumbria, UK: Langham Global Library.

Shelley, M. (1986). Helping those who don’t want help (Vol. 7). Carol Stream, IL; Waco, TX: Christianity Today, Inc.; Word Books.

Slaughter, M. (2010). Unlearning church: new edition. Nashville: Abingdon Press.

Smith, F. (1986). Learning to lead: bringing out the best in people (Vol. 5). Carol Stream, IL: CTi.

Sproul, R. C. (2013). How Can I Develop a Christian Conscience? (First edition). Orlando, FL: Reformation Trust.

Suarez, P., Suarez, G., & Beechick, R. (2006). Homeschooling methods: seasoned advice on learning styles. Nashville: B&H.

Thigpen, J. (2009). Teaching students not lessons. Nashville: Randall House.

Tobias, C. U., & Funk, C. (2003). Bringing out the best in your child: 80 ways to focus on every kid’s strengths. Ventura, CA: Regal Books.

Tyler, Z. (2005). 7 tools for cultivating your child’s potential. Nashville, TN: Broadman & Holman Publishers.

Vang, P. (2014). 1 Corinthians. (M. L. Strauss, Ed.). Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books.

Vassallo, W. (1998). Church communications handbook: a complete guide to developing a strategy, using technology, writing effectively, reaching the unchurched. Grand Rapids, MI: Kregel Resources.

Vibert, S. (2011). Excellence in Preaching: Studying the Craft of Leading Preachers. Downers Grove, IL: IVP Books.

White, J. E. (2012). Church in an age of crisis, the: 25 new realities facing christianity. Grand Rapids, MI: Baker.

Wilson, D. (2003). The case for classical christian education. Wheaton, IL: Crossway.

Wise, J. (2014). The social church: a theology of digital communication. Chicago, IL: Moody Publishers.

Yount, W. (2010). Created to learn: a christian teacher’s introduction to educational psychology, second edition. Nashville: B&H.

Yount, W. R. (2008). The teaching ministry of the church: second edition. Nashville: B&H.

Blessings.

Posts 9803
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 9 2016 7:06 AM

Well, Hamilton, I didn't expect a whole thread!  But thank you.

Scanning your list and the chart (along with EastTN's comments), I get the feeling it's a one way street ... the practitioner to his (typically) audience.  The issue I was posing, regarded an analysis of its success?  

Everyone hears of the successful pastor ... though too much success means something nefarious usually ... again, any analysis?  I always smiled when our pastor bemoaned church-hopping. Though I posed the question, must be a reason? 

In corporateland, the issue really wound up in the mid-nineties. Eventually, customer satisfaction metrics affecting personnel ratings, and 180/360 evaluations.  

But my larger curiousity was Jesus told stories ... Paul sold logic. I'd bet the stories had the bigger impact.  Effectiveness?


Posts 473
Hamilton Ramos | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 9 2016 10:33 AM

Hi Denise:

I really am interested in this topic. I hope you do not mind me sharing my mind with you. I do it with the intention of thanking you from good input you have given me before in other threads.

If I am not mischaracterizing you, I get the impression you are somehow similar to me.

You do not settle for the good, normal, mainstream, etc. you want to find the very awesome of God. 

So what does God say about ministries, ministers, etc?

By their fruits you will know them.

Success is a big word, but what makes efforts in the Christian religious arena successful?

Bright minds have been pondering, and I am noticing:

Author Christian Schwartz thinks ecclesiology is the next frontier in Christianity and maybe he is right:

https://www.amazon.com/Natural-Church-Development-Essential-Qualities/dp/1889638005/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1473439016&sr=8-1&keywords=christian+schwartz+natural+church+development

https://www.amazon.com/Paradigm-Shift-Church-Development-Theological/dp/B005OLADDY/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1473439016&sr=8-2&keywords=christian+schwartz+natural+church+development

Then very insightful writers like David Mulder start to give clues on what good fruit wrt congregation should be:

Real christianity is about outreach disciples, not really church members:

The pdf handout can be obtained in:

 

A gifted author (escapes my memory) has stated 3 key areas for effective ministry:

1)Exalt Jesus Christ (incl. worship)

2)Prepare  the sheep for ministry

3)Look for the lost

J. Miron in one of his books has specified criteria for fruit check be it church, ministry or minister:

1)What is the conception of Jesus Christ? Lord and savior? only way to God?

2)what is their moral life like? showing the fruit of the Spirit, and being holy?

3)what are their real life actions? loving neighbor? helping with Christian development?

4)what kind of people are associated / follow the movement, ministry, etc.? redeemed, humble servants for the Glory of God?

With respect to metrics:

Hoyt, W. R. (2011). Effectiveness by the numbers: counting what counts in the church. Nashville: United Methodist.

Stetzer, E., & Rainer, T. (2010). Transformational church. Nashville: B&H.

 

You can get the idea I am trying to convey. You can  try to work out a strategic map (sample below):

source:http://www.asq0511.org/Presentations/200503/200503.pdf

And with God's help, start facilitating the development of a group that strives to produce all good fruit as per God's directions.

You can be a change agent for the better Denise.

Blessings.

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Jacob Hantla | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 9 2016 11:02 AM

I would highly recommend Expository Listening by Ken Ramey: https://www.logos.com/product/16436/expository-listening

Jacob Hantla
Pastor/Elder, Grace Bible Church
gbcaz.org

Posts 1489
Josh | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 9 2016 11:30 AM

Hamilton Ramos:

I am not sure how the type of church relates its particular member's learning style in choosing media and content to deliver the sermon.

Perhaps the issue is the fact sermons are inherently lecture-based regardless if you spice them up with fancy slideshows. This might seem like blasphemy to most pastors, but we really need to rethink how we teach the church. Researchers have discovered better teaching methodologies that allow for greater information retention. Old habits die hard though. 

https://theway21stcentury.wordpress.com/church/sermons-not-how-we-learn-best/

 

Posts 986
EastTN | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 9 2016 11:53 AM

Denise:

Scanning your list and the chart (along with EastTN's comments), I get the feeling it's a one way street ... the practitioner to his (typically) audience.  The issue I was posing, regarded an analysis of its success?  

It shouldn't be, because big auditorium lectures should never be the only way that a preacher interacts with a congregation. 

My only point was that the form in which you communicate affects the way you deliver your message.  It also affects how much personal interaction you can have.  You can do a lot more to reach me personally, and truly interact with me, in a one-on-one conversation than you could if I attended a lecture you were giving in front of a couple of hundred people.  It would be even harder to have meaningful interactions if you were on television.

That's one reason I'm personally more comfortable in a small congregation than a larger one, and tend to learn much more in a classroom setting than I do during a sermon.

Posts 473
Hamilton Ramos | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 9 2016 12:16 PM

God bless:

Thanks to all for the input.

Josh:

Within the constraints of lecture-based, some traditions have adopted strategies that have been helpful in getting people involved.

If my memory serves me, some churches now tell in advance what the sermon on Sunday is going to be. This way people that meet in small groups in different ministries, programs, etc. can talk about the topic that will come up.

It seems that in some churches, there is record keeping of interesting input, questions, experiences, etc. so that feedback is given to the preacher before   preparing his sermon.

When Sunday comes, the preacher now can address particulars areas of interest about the subject matter, and sometimes even share (with permission) experiences, stories, etc. come from the very members.

It seems to be a better way of getting people interested.

Not long ago, I participated in the summer mobile ed session through faithlife, and it was wonderful to read what other believers (different traditions) had to say about the readings, the topics. etc. 

To take it a step further, and keeping in line with the outreach disciple view, I read that there are traditions that take persons interested in joining ministry teams, and have them spend time with leaders of different areas.

At the end the persons are asked to go to the leader in the area they felt more attracted to, to sign in for mentoring, apprenticeship.

It seems to be very successful, and usually people pick the right area.

Example areas: evangelism, church planting, small group development (Bible study), worship, prayer, deliverance / spiritual warfare, teaching, civic works, etc.

Very interesting area to explore further.

Usually cited as a reliable, guide, the figure above, is questioned as to reliability by some sources:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/answer-sheet/wp/2013/03/06/why-the-learning-pyramid-is-wrong/

Thanks for the info. Blessings.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 9 2016 1:31 PM

The above discussion would be considerably more interesting to me if it addressed either of what are to me the most important elements of a sermon:

  • worship
  • conversation
  • part of preparing to be sent out into the secular world from ... (theologically sensitive material redacted Wink)

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 96
Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 9 2016 3:31 PM

This is one of the primary reasons for small groups or home groups within a church.  Bringing the message of the church to a personal level can only be achieved through smaller bites and personal interaction(s).

Paul

Posts 986
EastTN | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 9 2016 4:00 PM

MJ. Smith:

The above discussion would be considerably more interesting to me if it addressed either of what are to me the most important elements of a sermon:

  • worship
  • conversation
  • part of preparing to be sent out into the secular world from ... (theologically sensitive material redacted Wink)

M.J., by "worship" do you mean that you view listening to a sermon as a devotional practice, much like listening to the public reading of Scripture?

And by "conversation," are thinking of sermons that involve an interactive aspect of some sort?

I don't mean to challenge anything you said - I'm just a bit intrigued by your comment.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 9 2016 4:50 PM

By worship I mean the earthly enactment of the heavenly (divine) liturgy of Revelation which consists of two parts - Liturgy of the Word and Liturgy of the Eucharist. By conversation I mean the direct involvement of God in the proclamation of the word and the breaking open of the Word so that the assembled faithful may be fed by it. So it should be obvious that I consider sermons to take place in kairos time rather than chronos time. Although the vocabulary may differ, this view represents the Catholic/Orthodox view as well as high Anglican and Lutheran view ... and perhaps a few others. Sermon in the sense of human performance before an audience of listeners to me refers to missions and retreats (think evangelistic meetings from your vocabulary). The priests I know prefer that people remember particularly helpful sermons but not who preached them ... that they consider to be the highest praise as they as a person served as an "invisible" conduit of God.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Myke Harbuck | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 9 2016 4:56 PM

Jacob Hantla:

I would highly recommend Expository Listening by Ken Ramey: https://www.logos.com/product/16436/expository-listening

I second that motion!!!! 

Myke Harbuck
Lead Pastor, www.ByronCity.Church
Adjunct Professor, Georgia Military College
Mac OS 10.13.6 High Sierra, Mid 2015 iMac, 2.5GHz i7, 32 gbRAM, 1tbSSD

Posts 473
Hamilton Ramos | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 10 2016 8:53 AM

Hi MJ:

Can you clarify for us the difference between Liturgy of the Word and Homily please. Also, do you consider there is a semantic difference between the following words:

g:Rhema, and g:Logos.

The information is to be able to give a response to some of your concerns from another perspective.

Peace and grace.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 10 2016 12:25 PM

The Liturgy of the Word is a more inclusive term than homily as it includes proclamation of the word among other things.

Chapell, Bryan. Christ-Centered Worship: Letting the Gospel Shape Our Practice. Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Academic, 2009.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 986
EastTN | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 10 2016 12:57 PM

M.J.

Thank you for the explanation - that is quite helpful. That's not the language I'm used to, but the focus on faithfully conveying God's word (and not our own) is one that I would hope all Christians could endorse.

MJ. Smith:

...prefer that people remember particularly helpful sermons but not who preached them ... that they consider to be the highest praise as they as a person served as an "invisible" conduit of God.

Amen. God working through us.

Posts 473
Hamilton Ramos | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 10 2016 4:56 PM

God bless MJ:

Thanks for the chart.

So I would think that most of us agree that it is important the liturgy of the Word, as God's Words have inherent power. The objective of God in being exposed to His word is transformation.

But just how does that happen?

Check the following video, especially the part between 09:55 and 12:00. Do you think that what is narrated there is plausible?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNvxXaRwFu4

Many evangelical groups know that there is a supernatural activity in the Church, and it is Jesus or His appointed angels that do the work.

Likewise, some traditions are very clear that g:Rhema is for the attestation of g:Logos:

1 Corinthians 14:25

the secrets of his heart are disclosed, and so, falling on his face, he will worship God and declare that God is really among you. 

What do you think the verse is referring to? could it be the gift of word of knowledge? and how does it work?

I am not sure if it was Augustine or some other that started with all this about cessationism, Calvin and others followed it, yet you know that Church experience is part of the tradition, and as some groups have let the Holy Spirit move freely, the gifts are proven to continue...

God is supernatural by nature, and supernatural things are bound to happen where He is involved.

Notice that the word used in "... faith comes by hearing the word of God" the actual greek word is rhema, that has to do much with the 1 Corinthians 14:25 passage, as in supernatural utterance that accomplishes God's purpose in the Kairos as you mentioned.

I have a charismatic Catholic friend, very pious believer. He told me once that when having communion, he actually saw a spiritual man enter him.

We both suspect it was Jesus, as the Logos does not fail:

John 14:20 In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you. 21Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.

Very clear, very simple: some traditions have experienced, others have not.

Very interesting topic. Thanks to all for the input.

Blessings.

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