Why you should not store ANY information in Logos

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 17 2016 3:44 AM

Graham Criddle:

Information about people can only be obtained for specified and lawful purposes and only kept for as long as required. And an individual has the right to request to see what information is being held regarding them

"Data subjects have a statutory right of access to their data, so whatever you commit to paper or to the computer - including your personal opinions - may have to be retrieved and disclosed to them if a formal enquiry is made"

So any information I hold about anyone I need to be ready to disclose to them.

In addition, we can't export data about individuals to outside the European Union unless the safeguards for that company/country meet EU standards. As Faithlife hasn't signed up to the EU-US Privacy Shield, EU citizens would be prevented by law from storing data about individuals in Logos Bible Software (encryption or otherwise).

Whilst I'm quite comfortable storing my notes about books/passages, word lists, etc. in Logos, I have never used the Prayer List functionality, and don't keep any notes on individuals in the software.

More detail here: http://ec.europa.eu/justice/data-protection/ 

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 17 2016 3:56 AM

Good point Mark

And one of the reasons I refrain from putting personal information into Logos software as well

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GaoLu | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 17 2016 4:30 AM

1. I think "should not store ANY information in Logos" may be over the top.  On the other hand, probably, I have too much out there.  I am going to remedy that and appreciate the warning.  The highest risk that I can think of is my prayer list, although it is cryptic enough that I wouldn't mind publishing it myself, so I am not concerned.  My notes aren't very high risk, or are they?  My PB's, sermons...You know, there might be some concerns tucked in there.

2. Russ has offered a clarion warning (I wish his tone was softer), and regardless of our choices to respond, he is right about the risk and right regarding the need for encryption.  Don't be naive.

3. Russ raises a good question, how many of us really know what Privacy means? Do we really understand how accessible data is, how certain it is that our data is being accessed, and how much information can be gleaned from what is available.  How sure are we that we really know what all we have out there?

4. MJ said, "I think we have several separate issues here:

  • for people who are from their country's perspective "engaging in illegal activity" e.g. China, I suspect mere internet activity with Logos is sufficiently damning that personal content on Logos has little net effect.

It is a lot bigger than that. In such countries personal content will have a very large "net effect."  It matters a whole lot to those authorities (?) who WILL access that data and probably already are. True, most such Logos users will go to great length not to allow information to go to Logos that could be used in court against them, yet inevitably over time it is going to happen.  A Little there.  A thoughtless moment.  Like Russ said, it is almost certain to happen.  It won't just be Asia, but is probably coming soon to UK and America too.

I encourage Logos to address this better.  It matters to me.

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Patrick S. | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 17 2016 5:15 AM

MJ. Smith:

I hope you're not implying [...] any pastors irresponsible enough to make such notes on their computers [...]

Yes

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If life teaches us anything, and especially as Christians, it is that there is no accounting for what people will do, or are capable of.

"I want to know all God's thoughts; the rest are just details." - Albert Einstein

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Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 17 2016 7:02 AM

cfr

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Jan Krohn | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 17 2016 9:42 AM

Patrick, you make an excellent point there.

Logos and the users who maintain their prayer lists make the choice for those individuals who are being prayed for, to have their personal information unencryped in the cloud.

My suggestion towards Faithlife: How about some spot checking, such as a full text search on the prayer database with the words "saudi arabia", and see if you find any names of undercover missionaries?

Past IT Consultant. Past Mission Worker. Entrepreneur. Future Seminary Student.
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Tony Thomas | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 17 2016 9:45 AM

It all comes down to common sense.  Assume anything that ends up on a server can be read by other people or leaked.  Don't put private/sensitive information on there.  As for prayer lists, I have mine on Logos but it is totally generic with no identifying information.  

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 17 2016 10:30 AM

Patrick S.:

Bob would you be happy for the pastor you confessed all your juicy sins to over the years to put them in his Logos Prayer List with your name along the lines of "Lord I also pray for poor Bob Pritchett, CEO of Logos (which makes this wonderful software BTW) that you will cure him of his addition to XXXXXXX, and that he can stop XXXXXXXX, and that XXXXXXX can finally forgive him for doing XXXXXXXX".

You be happy to see that all over the Internet?

If the pastor were STUPID enough to get that specific he deserves to get sued and his church along with him for hiring such incompetence.

Since when did the internet become the Lord God, having all our supplications laid in the cloud? 

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GregW | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 17 2016 10:37 AM

Mark Barnes:

Whilst I'm quite comfortable storing my notes about books/passages, word lists, etc. in Logos, I have never used the Prayer List functionality, and don't keep any notes on individuals in the software.

Exactly. I've adopted precisely the same policy. 


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Tony Thomas | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 17 2016 10:55 AM

I am not sure what all the fuss is about anyway.  You do have the option not to connect to the Internet and also not use prayer list and notes.

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 17 2016 10:59 AM

If we presume a user PC has as good (or bad) security as the Logos Cloud (Bob's key point), then, a pastor (or any pray-er) would be equally stupid (upper-case that per Matthew) to use digital prayer lists.

Actually, everything being equal (except for Bob's cloud), the cloud is the safer location these days. Large company's (expertise), and even better, there's more juicy tidbits than yours, if hacked.

Planning security, the key is just being more difficult than the next guy/gal ... perfect not needed. Like the old joke about 2 hunters and a bear ... only need to outpace your buddy.

Indeed, a list in the pastor's office, or his (usually) pocket is worst. Nosy people and laundry.

EDIT: I'd agree prayer issues are mostly boring (to a 3rd party). Not George's back again!  The highlights are much more useful, hacker-wise.  Unless, China or similar. I'd love to get my hands on the highlight database, given my 'bot-ishness' (unbeknownst to Donnie).


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Doc B | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 18 2016 7:45 PM

Mark Barnes:
I have never used the Prayer List functionality, and don't keep any notes on individuals in the software.

Exactly.  I have never used the prayer list and will not. So this issue doesn't really affect me directly.

However, I know many do and I wish FL was a bit more sensitive to the issue.

And on another note, I've loaded quite a few lessons, sermons, etc. into the software. I can't tell you that I am absolutely certain there isn't any personal information in any of those, so short of deleting all those items, I still have a very diminutive dog in the fight.

Some have complained about Russ' tone. I think he's done what was necessary to get the matter noticed. I highly respect those who will stick their neck out, especially when unpopular, for what they think is right. So even though it matters not a whit, Russ, I appreciate both your message and your tone!

My thanks to the various MVPs. Without them Logos would have died early. They were the only real help available.

Faithlife Corp. owes the MVPs free resources for life.

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Jan Krohn | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 18 2016 8:50 PM

Doc B:
Exactly.  I have never used the prayer list and will not. So this issue doesn't really affect me directly.

How can you be sure your cousellor/discipler/friend who prays for you doesn't use Logos' prayer lists, and puts all the gory details in there...?

The individuals who are really directly affected, don't even know about it...

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 18 2016 9:36 PM

Jan Krohn:
How can you be sure your cousellor/discipler/friend who prays for you doesn't use Logos' prayer lists, and puts all the gory details in there...?

It has to do with the ethics we've been taught ... the only question mark could be friend where I'd be more concerned with Facebook than Logos.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Doc B | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 20 2016 7:19 AM

Jan Krohn:
How can you be sure your cousellor/discipler/friend who prays for you doesn't use Logos' prayer lists, and puts all the gory details in there...?

 I don't, but then, that would be indirectly, and my claim was about directly.

But you do raise a valid point, and that's why I put the second proposition in my post about wishing FL would be more sensitive to the issue (I tried using a nice, soft, non-accusatory word there...I might have said, "...would wake the heck up," but that might have been offensive...same difference, though).

I certainly agree with your last sentence, if you take out the word, "directly"; it is an absolutely true statement.

My thanks to the various MVPs. Without them Logos would have died early. They were the only real help available.

Faithlife Corp. owes the MVPs free resources for life.

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Doc B | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 20 2016 7:22 AM

MJ. Smith:
I'd be more concerned with Facebook than Logos.

True.

Seen it happen.

It is ugly.

My thanks to the various MVPs. Without them Logos would have died early. They were the only real help available.

Faithlife Corp. owes the MVPs free resources for life.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 20 2016 8:19 AM

Jan Krohn:
How can you be sure your cousellor/discipler/friend who prays for you doesn't use Logos' prayer lists, and puts all the gory details in there...?

I am sure she doesn't use Logos prayer lists. I have her sign-in password. Cool

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Veli Voipio | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 20 2016 1:22 PM

Denise:
the cloud is the safer location these days

I agree, although I don't use much.

Basically anything what we put in the Internet is or may become public. And anything we store in our computers or other devices may find its way to the Internet.

Actually nothing we think or say is safe "for a bird might report what you are thinking, or some winged creature might repeat your words." The NET Bible (Ec 10:20).  (You might also check Cf. T. H. Gaster, ‘The telltale bird’, in Myth, Legend, and Custom in the Old Testament (1969), p. 838., a reference in Eaton, M. A. (1983). Ecclesiastes: An introduction and commentary (Vol. 18). IVP.).  In the next future technology horror scenario there might be bird-like drones watching you and perhaps with some kind of microphone listening or radar reading your thoughts!

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Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 20 2016 1:56 PM

Veli Voipio:

Denise:
the cloud is the safer location these days

I agree, although I don't use much.

I cannot understand why people think the cloud is safe.  Everyone is entitled to their opinions I guess.

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 20 2016 2:09 PM

Now, Mark. A bit of exegetical slight of hand, there! Safe?

'safe-ER'  Compared to most people's PC's, I'd recommend a reputable/large cloud site ... eg Apple, Amazon, etc.  

Your PC is a sieve, for even low-end hacking.


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