Britannica Tomorrow: Why Buy? And Why Not? The $200 Question.

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This post has 53 Replies | 5 Followers

Posts 1937
Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 15 2016 4:45 AM

Wild Eagle:
I can wait 5 days, 30 days, or whatever.

Would you be willing to wait another year for this product to go live?

Posts 1418
Wild Eagle | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 15 2016 5:23 AM

Mark:

Wild Eagle:
I can wait 5 days, 30 days, or whatever.

Would you be willing to wait another year for this product to go live?

Hopefully it would not be another year, but even if it would be delayed, I still would rather have it in my library than not at all. 

"No man is greater than his prayer life. The pastor who is not praying is playing; the people who are not praying are straying." Leonard Ravenhill 

Posts 1393
James Taylor | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 15 2016 5:42 AM

Wild Eagle:
0.00125 cent per article and including Compton's it is 0.001 cent. Cool 

Interesting stat. I'm not pessimistic as much as just disappointed because of how much I know I will like and use this resource, and unfortunately, I've gotten my hopes up (unintentionally) for several possible ship estimates. But yes, at 100 dollars for that massive amount of general articles, I will use this instead of wikipedia for all of my general research needs. I'm going to try my hardest to forget there was a 5 day estimate, and just look forward to being surprised when it ships (and hopefully not when I'm on my cell-data while riding down the road in the passenger seat-this has happened beforeIndifferent)

Logos 8  | Dell Inspiron 7373 | Windows 10 Pro 64, i7, 16GB, SSD | iPhone X | iMac 27" i7, 16GB, SSD | OS 10.13

Posts 10123
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 15 2016 6:59 AM

Now, Wildeagle, your calculation would make sense, if indeed you read 80,000 articles, or even might need to read 80,000 articles. It's like a truckload of groceries for $100 ... but not sharable. And remember, Logos tacked on another $100 for the truckload for most of us.

My enthusiasm deflated when someone in the other thread pointed out what 1,200 words actually looked like. In AYBD for example, it's an intro paragraph.

And I could handle that, presuming tagged, plus hi-res media ... but not so. Logos can't even zoom images, unless they come from Libby. The major reason I have Accordance.

But I like DAL's comment ... essentially to each his own. Though I still can't fathom multiple updates to the resource.


Posts 927
Bill Moore | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 15 2016 8:58 AM

Denise:

Now, Wildeagle, your calculation would make sense, if indeed you read 80,000 articles, or even might need to read 80,000 articles. It's like a truckload of groceries for $100 ... but not sharable. And remember, Logos tacked on another $100 for the truckload for most of us.

My enthusiasm deflated when someone in the other thread pointed out what 1,200 words actually looked like. In AYBD for example, it's an intro paragraph.

And I could handle that, presuming tagged, plus hi-res media ... but not so. Logos can't even zoom images, unless they come from Libby. The major reason I have Accordance.

But I like DAL's comment ... essentially to each his own. Though I still can't fathom multiple updates to the resource.

Denise, what do you mean by "not sharable" in your first paragraph above? Are you referring to Noet Britannica articles or just the groceries?

I understand about the deflated enthusiasm as to word count of articles. An article of 1200 words or less isn't much. Just for comparison, I checked the online Britannica through our local library. "Heart" (anatomy) has 902 words, according to MS Word, and there are other articles linked within this one and other related articles as well. "John Calvin" has 4774, about the word count listed on Ben Amundgaard's Excel file attached to his update post.

But this is a general encyclopedia. Would the print edition of Britannica include longer articles? I do find the online Britannica which I can easily access through our public library very useful, and if the Noet edition is similar, I would be fine with that. Aside from the articles which Britannica withheld (why would they withhold C. S. Lewis and Martin Luther, for instance?), this still seems a worthwhile general library to own, especially for those times when internet access is difficult or unavailable.

How does EBNE compare to the less expensive Britannica Ultimate DVD? That would be interesting to know.

I'm hoping for the best. If it doesn't seem worthwhile, I'll take advantage of Logos' gracious 30-day return policy. I hope I won't need to.

Pastor, Cornerstone Baptist Church, Clinton, SC

Posts 10123
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 15 2016 9:26 AM

Bill, the 'sharable' was both ... due to Logos licenses being personal. Meaning whatever you buy in Logos has to meet personal usage ... no friend-lending, etc. 

Your comments on article length are good ... maybe my memory of printed encyclopedias is wrong. Some were quite short if the person/subject was limited interest. But as kids, we could put together a decent paper from our encyclopedia. Maybe my memory is missing a few screws.

Plus, I look thru the lens of cellular ... when we're traveling, any Logos purchases either have to go to my iPad, or be overwhelmed with updates on my PC. Britannica thus is a significant risk... Logos refuses selective download AND refuses pre-knowledge of downloads.  Logos is a bad-boy company. My other Bible guys are nicer, along with Apple apps, many now approaching 3gigs. And, I don't do unsecured wifi.


Posts 927
Bill Moore | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 15 2016 9:45 AM

Thanks for clarifying, Denise.

I don't do unsecured wifi, either, but am usually on my MacBook Pro in my office. A small-capacity iPad or phone would definitely be a "no" for downloading EBNE.

Pastor, Cornerstone Baptist Church, Clinton, SC

Posts 71
Average Joe | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 15 2016 10:15 AM

Wild Eagle:

Why are so many pessimistic replies here. 80,000 articles for $100 only. I am super excited. I can wait 5 days, 30 days, or whatever. It will be still worth getting it one day. I dont care about local library in my town. Tomorrow I can move out, but with Logos it can sit on my pocket. well tagged. Thank you Faithlife for this massive production. Yes

PS: How much one article would cost you. Technically it is pretty much free with Logos. It is not worth my time to log in to my city library. It will be more expensive if I count my time. With Logos it is - 0.00125 cent per article and including Compton's it is 0.001 cent. Cool 

Yes I agree. I don't mind waiting. I placed my pre-order a year and a half ago, so what's another 5 days? I'm not super concerned about high-res vs. low-res or the word count, though. I'm just excited to have such a massive general reference work that everyone can't edit. Wink

Posts 56
Fred Robbins | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 16 2016 3:35 PM

Wild Eagle:

Why are so many pessimistic replies here. 80,000 articles for $100 only. I am super excited. I can wait 5 days, 30 days, or whatever. It will be still worth getting it one day. I dont care about local library in my town. Tomorrow I can move out, but with Logos it can sit on my pocket. well tagged. Thank you Faithlife for this massive production. Yes

PS: How much one article would cost you. Technically it is pretty much free with Logos. It is not worth my time to log in to my city library. It will be more expensive if I count my time. With Logos it is - 0.00125 cent per article and including Compton's it is 0.001 cent. Cool 

I wonder if any of the articles are abridged?

Posts 26285
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 16 2016 3:42 PM

Fred Robbins:
I wonder if any of the articles are abridged?

There is absolutely no evidence that this would be true. Logos selected articles not edited them.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 5248
Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 17 2016 10:23 AM

MJ. Smith:

Fred Robbins:
I wonder if any of the articles are abridged?

There is absolutely no evidence that this would be true. Logos selected articles not edited them.

I would even suspect any tampering with Britannica  articles might cause them to pull it from Logos. Although it would depend how the contracts were written. But it could be very damaging to the Britannica brand, but at this point the whole thing is a mess... With only 550 of the 2600+ larger articles included it feels to me to be almost a failed project. If I had paid more than the $99 early prepub price I would likely be returning it.

-Dan

Posts 196
Stephen Terlizzi | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 17 2016 12:09 PM

Dan Francis:

MJ. Smith:

Fred Robbins:
I wonder if any of the articles are abridged?

There is absolutely no evidence that this would be true. Logos selected articles not edited them.

I would even suspect any tampering with Britannica  articles might cause them to pull it from Logos. Although it would depend how the contracts were written. But it could be very damaging to the Britannica brand, but at this point the whole thing is a mess... With only 550 of the 2600+ larger articles included it feels to me to be almost a failed project. If I had paid more than the $99 early prepub price I would likely be returning it.

-Dan

I suspect that Faithlife limited it to 550 large articles (~25% of the total) to mitigate licensing costs as well as development costs to tag the articles. They will probably see if this product is sufficient to meet the demand of the original purchasers and attract interest from the Faithlife community (Logos, Noet, etc.). If so, I wouldn't be surprised to see a Pre-Pub for a paid upgrade that would add some, if not most, of the other larger articles.

IMHO.

Steve

Posts 334
Paul Strickert | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 17 2016 12:14 PM

I was under the impression that EB imposed the article limits. 

Posts 927
Bill Moore | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 17 2016 12:16 PM

Stephen Terlizzi:

Dan Francis:

MJ. Smith:

Fred Robbins:
I wonder if any of the articles are abridged?

There is absolutely no evidence that this would be true. Logos selected articles not edited them.

I would even suspect any tampering with Britannica  articles might cause them to pull it from Logos. Although it would depend how the contracts were written. But it could be very damaging to the Britannica brand, but at this point the whole thing is a mess... With only 550 of the 2600+ larger articles included it feels to me to be almost a failed project. If I had paid more than the $99 early prepub price I would likely be returning it.

-Dan

I suspect that Faithlife limited it to 550 large articles (~25% of the total) to mitigate licensing costs as well as development costs to tag the articles. They will probably see if this product is sufficient to meet the demand of the original purchasers and attract interest from the Faithlife community (Logos, Noet, etc.). If so, I wouldn't be surprised to see a Pre-Pub for a paid upgrade that would add some, if not most, of the other larger articles.

IMHO.

Steve

If this is the case, Steve, and I understand it's only your opinion, I hope Logos announces it sooner rather than later. I'm interested in seeing what is missing. It kind of gnaws at me that so many major articles are missing.

Pastor, Cornerstone Baptist Church, Clinton, SC

Posts 196
Stephen Terlizzi | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 17 2016 12:26 PM

Paul Strickert:

I was under the impression that EB imposed the article limits. 

Indeed, it is possible that Encyclopedia Britannica doesn't have an option to license a greater number, or all, of the articles for resale.

I cannot find any information on the Britannica website in their partner section.

Agape,

Steve

Posts 334
Paul Strickert | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 17 2016 12:43 PM

Here's the info Ben provided in the other thread:

Ben Amundgaard:

Hi all,

Over the past week or so, we've had a few people test the EBNE resource to make sure we had set accurate expectations about the product. In light of their feedback, I think it's worth making a few clarifying comments to ensure that everyone knows what they are getting and has accurate expectations.

In the wake of the fallout from the initial product we shipped, EB offered to give us an additional set of articles to make a product that better met our customer's original expectations. EB offered the following:

  1. Every article under 1,200 words (which is ~81,000). For this group, we took the whole lot.
  2. A select number of articles over 1,200 words (there are over 2,600 articles total in this category, we were able to get ~550).

In total, we ended up including a majority of EB's total article count (in addition to the initial Compton's articles).

We tried to be clear in the various forum posts that the additional articles we were creating would be a subset of the complete Encyclopedia Britannica. I've looked back at some of the posts and it looks like we did a fairly good job at that. That said, I do have a concern that we might have not been clear enough about what that subset would be.

As I said, we were able to license ~550 of the articles above 1,200 words (I've attached an Excel file listing these articles and their respective word counts). This led to some strange gaps. For example, we were able to include articles on WWI, WWI, Ancient Egypt, and Ancient Rome, but didn't have the option to include articles on Martin Luther or C.S. Lewis.

That said, paired with Compton's you will have fairly comprehensive coverage on one level or another.

A second issue I'd like to clarify regards the media portion of the resource. Many of the quotes referenced in Denise's post above come from statements made before we shipped the initial product. After having heard feedback from those who reviewed the media, I'm afraid that not all of it lives up to the claim of 'hi res'. Some of it is great, some of it not-so-great. There's not much we can do about the quality of the media as we have the best quality that EBNE has to offer. That said, our initial communication definitely oversold the media and I want to reset everyone's expectations.

Finally, a question was raised about the Timeline. As with all our resources, dates within the resources link out to the timeline. However, not every event listed in a resource is added to the timeline (this is the case for resources other than EBNE). This means that while you can jump from the resource to the timeline and from the timeline to many other resources, you can't necessarily jump from every resource to every other resource by way of the timeline. I'm concerned that the way we talked about the timeline on the product page and in other copy indicated that every event from EB would be added to the timeline so that you could go to the EBNE from any other resource by way of the timeline. That isn't the way the timeline feature will work with EBNE.

I still think this is a great resource that will add value to your library. I just want to make sure that you know what you're getting so that you have accurate expectations.

Please let me know if you have any questions.

Posts 334
Paul Strickert | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 17 2016 12:50 PM

Here's the list of the included articles (exceeding 1200 words) in alphabetical order.  1680.article list.txt

Posts 5248
Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 17 2016 1:38 PM

Paul Strickert:

I was under the impression that EB imposed the article limits. 

The did and refused FL to include some articles key to religious studies ie. Martin Luther and C.S. Lewis

-Dan

Posts 5613
Todd Phillips | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 17 2016 1:45 PM

Dan Francis:

Paul Strickert:

I was under the impression that EB imposed the article limits. 

The did and refused FL to include some articles key to religious studies ie. Martin Luther and C.S. Lewis

-Dan

It really makes no sense.  EB will lose sales by not including all content.  They still sell versions of the EB DVD for $30.  Why would they not license it to Logos, where they can charge so much more?  There's already ways for individuals to access their online content for free through local library options (I'm sure the libraries pay fees, but it's not like they're going to lose those by having it in Logos). They should jump at the chance to make a sale to people who want local content and/or don't want to pay for yearly subscriptions.

Wiki Links: Enabling Logging / Detailed Search Help - MacBook Pro (2014), ThinkPad E570

Posts 927
Bill Moore | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 17 2016 1:46 PM

Dan Francis:

Paul Strickert:

I was under the impression that EB imposed the article limits. 

The did and refused FL to include some articles key to religious studies ie. Martin Luther and C.S. Lewis

-Dan

And yet they included John Calvin. I wonder what were the publishers criteria for what was and was not included. It would be interesting to compare a list of what was included and what was not.

Pastor, Cornerstone Baptist Church, Clinton, SC

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