Help: Finding all entities in John
I want to find all places in John: cities, town, regions, rivers, lakes, etc. I'm hoping that <Place> entities in the book would reflect that information.
First I tried a Bible search for John in the ESV with syntax: <Place *>. That churned for several minutes. Unfortunately it came back with all instances of the literal word "place" followed by whatever the next word was. If I didn't have the <> around the phrase, I'd understand why it did that. And if wildcard entity searches aren't supported, I'd understand not getting any results. But I'm not sure why I got the results I did, or why it took so long to give me those results.
Then I tried Bible Browser. First, I filtered to John. "Places" is a top-level filter, but unfortunately I can't select all places as a filter. So that didn't work out, either.
Two questions, then:
1) How do I find the results I want, irrespective of tool or technique?
2) Does anyone else think that it would be useful for Bible Browser to support what I tried, i.e. let me pick "Places" as the filter and Bible Browser filter down results to all verses that reference a place, no matter which particular place it happens to be?
Thanks much,
Donnie
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Concordance tool, limit passages to John, then filter by the Entity:Place
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Donnie Hale said:
I want to find all places in John: cities, town, regions, rivers, lakes, etc.
Louw-Nida Semantic Domain 93 has Names of Persons (1-388) and Places (389-615) so can do a Bible Search for Names of Places in John:
<Louw Nida 93.389–93.615>
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Louw-Nida Semantic Domain 93 has Names of Persons (1-388) and Places (389-615) so can do a Bible Search for Names of Places in John:
Selecting the analysis view from the top right allows you to sort by result or by any column as needed
Gold package, and original language material and ancient text material, SIL and UBS books, discourse Hebrew OT and Greek NT. PC with Windows 11
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James Taylor said:
Concordance tool, limit passages to John, then filter by the Entity:Place
Concordance does not include Jerusalem, Jordan, Bethany, Bethsaida, Nazareth (all in Jn 1), & Cana (in Jn 2) and others.
It also fails by including referents that are verbs, adverbs, pronouns.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Louw-Nida Semantic Domain 93 has Names of Persons (1-388) and Places (389-615) so can do a Bible Search for Names of Places in John:
<Louw Nida 93.389–93.615>
This is more accurate, but omits Israel (93.182) and includes adjectives like Judean.
(<Louw Nida 93.389–93.615>, <LN 93.182>) ANDEQUALS <LogosMorphGr ~ N????> is better, and helps diagnose where Concordance omits places.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Cities needs to be selected to to get the additional ones that Dave mentioned. I don't think you can select both places and cities in the Concordance Tool. Another approach is the Bible Browser (Logos Now)
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John Fidel said:
Cities needs to be selected to to get the additional ones that Dave mentioned. I don't think you can select both places and cities in the Concordance Tool.
It is misleading because they all have the <Place .....> tag. 'Place' should be renamed
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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John Fidel said:
Cities needs to be selected to to get the additional ones that Dave mentioned. I don't think you can select both places and cities in the Concordance Tool. Another approach is the Bible Browser (Logos Now)
That's the approach I tried. If you look in your breadcrumb, the only filter is "John." There's no way to add a filter "All Places," which I think is a shortcoming.
Thanks for replying,
Donnie
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Should I take it from your reply that there is no way to do a wildcard search using the <Place> syntax, e.g. <Place *>?
Thanks for replying,
Donnie
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The places and people are on the left and you correctly state you need to select them one at a time, but you have a list to work from.
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James Taylor said:
Concordance tool, limit passages to John, then filter by the Entity:Place
This is the closest I've seen to a straightforward way to do this. I wasn't aware of this capability. As pointed out by others, apparently "cities" are not "places."
But this might be good enough for now.Thank you for replying,
Donnie
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Donnie Hale said:
As pointed out by others, apparently "cities" are not "places."
Yes, maybe this has to be a two step-er at least in the concordance tool, but the Louw-Nida seach is a good approach too. Thanks for the learning experience.
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They should allow us to choose the top category such as all people or all places or all the women in the Bible and then allow us to create a visual filter.
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Donnie Hale said:James Taylor said:
Concordance tool, limit passages to John, then filter by the Entity:Place
This is the closest I've seen to a straightforward way to do this. I wasn't aware of this capability. As pointed out by others, apparently "cities" are not "places."
But this might be good enough for now.Thank you for replying,
Donnie
Also, curiously, "Any Place" is not just any place, but any unnamed place.
MacBook Pro (2019), ThinkPad E540
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I get the same type of thing when I do a search for the places Paul went <Place Cities Paul went> I know you have to put these generic hits into some kind of category but it tends to be confusing for the person searching. If they allowed to search for the very top category then allot of more powerful searches could be done such as all the cities or places Jesus visited and then preformed a miracle.
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Try the Explorer tool. It covers it all!
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Dave Hooton said:
Louw-Nida Semantic Domain 93 has Names of Persons (1-388) and Places (389-615) so can do a Bible Search for Names of Places in John:
<Louw Nida 93.389–93.615>
This is more accurate, but omits Israel (93.182) and includes adjectives like Judean.
(<Louw Nida 93.389–93.615>, <LN 93.182>) ANDEQUALS <LogosMorphGr ~ N????> is better, and helps diagnose where Concordance omits places.
LN 93.487 is often translated Jews, which refers to the people.
Place search that includes many unnamed ones (e.g. Judean territory) is a bit more expansive:
(<ln1.1>,<ln1.5>,<ln1.11-1.12>,<ln1.39>,<ln1.46>,<ln1.60>,<ln1.70>,<ln1.79>,<ln1.86>,<ln1.88>,<ln1.95>,<ln1.97>,<ln4.23>,<ln7.3>,<ln7.7>,<ln7.15-7.16>,<ln7.20>,<ln7.49>,<ln7.56-58>,<ln7.75>,<ln9.7>,<ln9.22-9.23>,<ln11.44>,<ln11.46>,<ln11.55>,<ln15.137>,<ln41.38>,<ln80.1>,<ln 93.182>,<ln93.389-93.486>,<ln93.488–93.561>,<ln93.563-93.615>,<ln3.5>) OR (<ln93.487> WITHIN 0 WORDS (Judea,Judean)) OR (<ln84.13> WITHIN 0 WORDS "from above")
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Schumitinu said:
Try the Explorer tool. It covers it all!
That's pretty helpful - thanks. Only thing I can tell from your screenshot (I'm not in front of L7 right now) is that I'd have to click on each item under "Biblical Places" to get to the verses for that place. So in terms of what constitutes a "place," that looks like a better list than what's in Concordance or Bible Browser (which is odd, and discouraging). But it still won't give me the full set of verses with any of those places, in canonical order.
Thanks again,
Donnie
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Donnie Hale said:
full set of verses with any of those places, in canonical order.
For this always think export to Passage List and sort.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
For this always think export to Passage List and sort.
I did think that. I don't see any way to do that from Explorer. There's "Print/Export," which is basically a screen shot of what's being displayed. Nothing relevant shows up by right-clicking. Hopefully I'm missing something obvious, but I'll need someone to point it out.
Since I have your attention, and you are the queen of taxonomy (I mean that with sincere respect), do you think the current L7 functionality across Concordance, Explorer, and Bible Browser is consistent? In Concordance, City, Place, and Natural Place are mutually exclusive - I can't see all of them at once. In Explorer, it's "Biblical Places," which includes the same icons (and presumably entities) for City, Place, and Natural Place as in Concordance. In Bible Browser, there are "Places" - I think they are the same entities, but they aren't using any icons there. And searching for <Place> (just like that) as a Bible search turns up verses with the word "place," which I'll confess doesn't make sense to me - angle brackets have special significance in a search, except when they don't.
I've gone from: "I really need this information, there should be an easy way to do it in L7" (LN semantic ranges does not constitute easy, though it is certainly a valid approach) to "this doesn't really make any sense" to "I'm pretty frustrated now."
I do appreciate all the replies. I should have been clearer in my initial question that I needed the results in the form of a single, full list of verses in canonical order.
Donnie
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Donnie Hale said:
do you think the current L7 functionality across Concordance, Explorer, and Bible Browser is consistent?
No I don't. In early beta testing of the Bible Browser I discovered it was impossible to check the results against a Search. There are some technical reasons why some of them should not be consistent because you may be querying:
- the text itself
- the text with referent tagging
- the original language text underlying the text itself
- use of BibleKnowledgebase tagging
- . . .
The problem is getting precise descriptions from Faithlife ... the type we get only when we find awkward inconsistencies and they step in to explain. I am personally very uncomfortable with the current state of the data not because of any philosophical disagreement with what they are doing (although Sean would acknowledge that I am a minority of 1 pushing for finer granularity while they are merging items) but because they are midway through a revision of tags with we, as users, unable to determine the status of any vocabulary item.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Logos 10 | Dell Inspiron 7373 | Windows 11 Pro 64, i7, 16GB, SSD | iPhone 13 Pro Max
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Am I missing something about how to export to a passage list?
-Donnie
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Donnie Hale said:
Am I missing something about how to export to a passage list?
after testing, it's not possible directly from Explorer, but if you run the same range through the passage guide, it works, after you select the "show all" option at the bottom of the Biblical Places section. (Also remember to collapse all sections of the guide when running such a long passage range)...
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I tried that, seeing the exact same screens in your screen shot. But in the resulting passage list, even though it was named "John 1-21 > Biblical Places," it had 4,412 passages in it, with most of those verses from outside the book of John.
Still no luck...
Thanks for the idea,
Donnie
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Donnie Hale said:
most of those verses from outside the book of John.
oops sorry, should've actually compiled the list to test first
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Donnie Hale said:
Still no luck...
Well, first let me say that you are right, there should be an easy way to do this, it should be possible from the search panel with a simple <Place ANY> or something like that, it should be possible from the Bible Browser, etc.
That being said... here is a workaround solution until it is.
- In the Explorer, collapse all sections except for Biblical Places. Then run a search for John 1-21.
- Right click on the header, and select "Copy."
- Open up Microsoft Word, and paste the results into Word. You'll have one place on each line.
- Open up the Search and Replace dialog box. Run the following search and replace. In the "Find what", you are searching for "Paragraph Mark", which you can select from the "Special" button on the bottom left of the Find and Replace dialog. What we are doing is searching for carriage returns, and replacing them with the <Place> format Logos needs:
5. Fix the first and last one manually in Microsoft Word.
6. You'll end up with the following search string, which you can then search for in your preferred Bible, limiting yourself to the Gospel of John, with all the places reported by the Explorer:
<Place Galilee>, <Place Bethany (on the Mt. of Olives)>, <Place Sychar>, <Place Golgotha>, <Place Jerusalem>, <Place Judea>, <Place Sea of Galilee>, <Place Capernaum>, <Place Jordan>, <Place Samaria (city)>, <Place Cana>, <Place Nazareth>, <Place Siloam>, <Place Israel>, <Place Bethsaida>, <Place Kidron>, <Place Mount Gerizim>, <Place Bethany (Beyond the Jordan)>, <Place Jacob’s Well>, <Place Aenon>, <Place Bethlehem (of Judah)>, <Place Ophrah (of Benjamin)>, <Place Tiberias>, <Place Beth-Zatha>, <Place Salim>, <Place Places John the Baptist went>, <Place Any Place>, <Place Ramah (of Benjamin)>, <Place Mount of Olives>, <Place Places Jesus went>
7. From your Search Panel menu, select "Save as Passage List." Give it a new name if you like. FYI, I got 88 verses.
8. If you want your single, full list in canonical order to be usable in a document as a pure list of references: In the Passage List you just created, select Print/Export. Then, on the left hand pane, select "Print as minimized list". Finally, select "Copy to clipboard."
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James Taylor said:
Yes, maybe this has to be a two step-er at least in the concordance tool
John Brumett said:They should allow us to choose the top category such as all people or all places or all the women in the Bible and then allow us to create a visual filter.
I'd like to see the option of choosing more than one filter in the Concordance tool (and other Interactives). Kind of selecting more than one.
This would give us the option to find all the references, but then Concordance would not allow us to save it as a passage list neither.
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I tried a Clause search in John for place:ANY. It gave me 3557 hits!!! How can that be? A lot of hits are no places at all. Shouldn't it find all Biblical Entities that are tagged as places? I thought that would be exactly what we are looking for.
Then I tried
place:Any Region OR place:Any City or Town OR place:Any Place OR place:Any village
which gave me exactly one hit. Didn't work neither.Is this all expected behavior?
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Fr Devin Roza said:Donnie Hale said:
Still no luck...
Well, first let me say that you are right, there should be an easy way to do this, it should be possible from the search panel with a simple <Place ANY> or something like that, it should be possible from the Bible Browser, etc.
That being said... here is a workaround solution until it is.
- In the Explorer, collapse all sections except for Biblical Places. Then run a search for John 1-21.
- Right click on the header, and select "Copy."
- Open up Microsoft Word, and paste the results into Word. You'll have one place on each line.
- Open up the Search and Replace dialog box. Run the following search and replace. In the "Find what", you are searching for "Paragraph Mark", which you can select from the "Special" button on the bottom left of the Find and Replace dialog. What we are doing is searching for carriage returns, and replacing them with the <Place> format Logos needs:
5. Fix the first and last one manually in Microsoft Word.
6. You'll end up with the following search string, which you can then search for in your preferred Bible, limiting yourself to the Gospel of John, with all the places reported by the Explorer:
<Place Galilee>, <Place Bethany (on the Mt. of Olives)>, <Place Sychar>, <Place Golgotha>, <Place Jerusalem>, <Place Judea>, <Place Sea of Galilee>, <Place Capernaum>, <Place Jordan>, <Place Samaria (city)>, <Place Cana>, <Place Nazareth>, <Place Siloam>, <Place Israel>, <Place Bethsaida>, <Place Kidron>, <Place Mount Gerizim>, <Place Bethany (Beyond the Jordan)>, <Place Jacob’s Well>, <Place Aenon>, <Place Bethlehem (of Judah)>, <Place Ophrah (of Benjamin)>, <Place Tiberias>, <Place Beth-Zatha>, <Place Salim>, <Place Places John the Baptist went>, <Place Any Place>, <Place Ramah (of Benjamin)>, <Place Mount of Olives>, <Place Places Jesus went>
7. From your Search Panel menu, select "Save as Passage List." Give it a new name if you like. FYI, I got 88 verses.
8. If you want your single, full list in canonical order to be usable in a document as a pure list of references: In the Passage List you just created, select Print/Export. Then, on the left hand pane, select "Print as minimized list". Finally, select "Copy to clipboard."
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THIS!
This is one of the BEST things I have learned all year in Logos. All of the sudden, knowing how to do this has opened up a whole world of search for me! THANK YOU!!!
P.S. Edited to add that your explanation is FLAWLESS!
Cynthia
Romans 8:28-38
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Fr Devin Roza said:
That being said... here is a workaround solution until it is.
Thanks for the detailed reply. I'll have to get motivated to do that, but I clearly see how it will work.
One comment on your explanation: For me it helps to know up front what the steps in a tutorial like yours are leading to; e.g. "You can follow these steps to create a search string that contains all <Places> in John." Granted, that may just be me. But it makes it easier, at least for me, to relate the individual steps to where they are taking me.
Thanks again,
Donnie
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Fr Devin Roza said:
Well, first let me say that you are right, there should be an easy way to do this, it should be possible from the search panel with a simple <Place ANY> or something like that, it should be possible from the Bible Browser, etc.
So Dave, KS4J, Todd, MJ, and Fr Roza have replied in this thread. Does anyone know if someone at FL has seen it and can comment on:
a) The possibility of enhancing a straight search to support this capability, e.g. <Place ANY>?
b) Improving the interactives (Concordance, Bible Browser, Explorer) to support this capability?
Thanks everyone for the replies.
Donnie
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I been wanting this type of search for a while. All people (all women and men), all places and all things.
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Schumitinu said:
I tried a Clause search in John for place:ANY. It gave me 3557 hits!!! How can that be? A lot of hits are no places at all. Shouldn't it find all Biblical Entities that are tagged as places? I thought that would be exactly what we are looking for.
Then I tried
place:Any Region OR place:Any City or Town OR place:Any Place OR place:Any village
which gave me exactly one hit. Didn't work neither.Is this all expected behavior?
The results for "place:Any" aren't correct (and I get the same results with "person:ANY" and "thing:ANY"). I'll follow up on this.
The semantics of "Any Place" is not all places: this is the tag we use for generic places for which we don't have enough information to be more specific. Clause Search with "place:Any Place" returns a single hit (John 11:30), and that's correct: "the place where Martha had met him".
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Sean Boisen said:
The semantics of "Any Place" is not all places: this is the tag we use for generic places for which we don't have enough information to be more specific. Clause Search with "place:Any Place" returns a single hit (John 11:30), and that's correct: "the place where Martha had met him".
Earlier in John 11:30 village has <Place Bethany (on the Mt. of Olives)> that could also apply to the "place" where Martha meet Jesus near Bethany when He had not yet come into the village.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Sean Boisen said:Schumitinu said:
I tried a Clause search in John for place:ANY. It gave me 3557 hits!!! How can that be? A lot of hits are no places at all. Shouldn't it find all Biblical Entities that are tagged as places? I thought that would be exactly what we are looking for.
Then I tried
place:Any Region OR place:Any City or Town OR place:Any Place OR place:Any village
which gave me exactly one hit. Didn't work neither.Is this all expected behavior?
The results for "place:Any" aren't correct (and I get the same results with "person:ANY" and "thing:ANY"). I'll follow up on this.
The semantics of "Any Place" is not all places: this is the tag we use for generic places for which we don't have enough information to be more specific. Clause Search with "place:Any Place" returns a single hit (John 11:30), and that's correct: "the place where Martha had met him".
Thank you for clarifying "Any Place" etc. to me, as well as for following up on "place:Any" etc. searches. Much appreciated!
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Sean Boisen said:
I'll follow up on this.
Do you mean you'll follow up on the overall request in this thread, i.e. the ability to search for all instances of a certain kind of entity?
I would like someone with FL to comment on this - the company's perspective on the concept and if there's a chance it will be implemented.
Thanks,
Donnie
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Donnie Hale said:Sean Boisen said:
I'll follow up on this.
Do you mean you'll follow up on the overall request in this thread, i.e. the ability to search for all instances of a certain kind of entity?
I would like someone with FL to comment on this - the company's perspective on the concept and if there's a chance it will be implemented.
Thanks,
Donnie
The results for "place:Any" aren't correct: that's what I've followed up on (nothing more to report yet).
Adding a way to search all values for a data type is an issue for Bradley to address: I'll mention it to him.
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Sean Boisen said:
Adding a way to search all values for a data type is an issue for Bradley to address: I'll mention it to him.
Thanks, Sean.
-Donnie
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Schumitinu said:
I tried a Clause search in John for place:ANY. It gave me 3557 hits!!! How can that be? A lot of hits are no places at all. Shouldn't it find all Biblical Entities that are tagged as places? I thought that would be exactly what we are looking for.
Clause Search for ANY and NONE has been fixed in 7.2 Beta 2, and will be to stable users once 7.2 ships at the end of the current beta cycle.
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Logos 7.2 Beta 3 Clause Search in John for:
place:ANY
Keep Smiling [:)]
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This is still not available in english bibles and the clause search does not narrow it down so you can list individual cities as in the concordance tool.
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I can't test it because I don't run betas, but can Analysis allow the user to sort by the places (hits)?
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Francis said:
can Analysis allow the user to sort by the places (hits)?
It takes forever to run the Analysis view in clause search.
The results in analysis view mixes up People, places and things because it is looking at the whole clause not just places. I tried Adverbial, Subject and Object.
The Analysis View only gives results in the Sbl Greek or Hebrew.
I still need the ability to search and create a visual filter for all cities or places in the English Bible (NKJV). It would be nice to limit this to proper names.
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John Brumett said:
I still need the ability to search and create a visual filter for all cities or places in the English Bible (NKJV).
This will work if you really need this before Faithlife implements an easier solution: http://community.logos.com/forums/p/130857/851289.aspx#851289.
That being said, I really hope that we get a way to search for ANY, or... even better, to search based on traits, or better still, a Bible-Sense-Lexicon like tree structure based on traits. i.e. with the Bible Sense Lexicon we can search for a specific branch of the tree structure, or that branch and anything below it.
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Schumitinu said:
I tried a Clause search in John for place:ANY. It gave me 3557 hits!!! How can that be? A lot of hits are no places at all. Shouldn't it find all Biblical Entities that are tagged as places? I thought that would be exactly what we are looking for.
Then I tried
place:Any Region OR place:Any City or Town OR place:Any Place OR place:Any village
which gave me exactly one hit. Didn't work neither.Is this all expected behavior?
This is now fixed in 7.2
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Philana R. Crouch said:Schumitinu said:
I tried a Clause search in John for place:ANY. It gave me 3557 hits!!! How can that be? A lot of hits are no places at all. Shouldn't it find all Biblical Entities that are tagged as places? I thought that would be exactly what we are looking for.
Then I tried
place:Any Region OR place:Any City or Town OR place:Any Place OR place:Any village
which gave me exactly one hit. Didn't work neither.Is this all expected behavior?
This is now fixed in 7.2
Thank you FL! Works like charm...
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Philana R. Crouch said:
This is now fixed in 7.2
Philana
Do you know if we will have the ability to search for all places including proper Nouns of Cities such as Corinth, Ephesus, ect in our English Bibles? Do you know if this is in the works?
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Was this ever answered? I'm trying something similar. How do I find all the <Place> names in the Pastoral Epistles?
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