"after three nights and three days I will rise again"

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 10 2010 10:28 AM

Paul Golder:

"after three nights and three days I will rise again"

When I first saw this, I was thinking that someone was indexing on a netbook...Big Smile

Actually, it was the Mac Alpha.

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Dewayne Davis | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 10 2010 11:09 AM

Vincent Setterholm:

Another tack on the issue is to explore the idea that in the Passion week there may have been two Sabbaths. The normal Saturday Sabbath (that begins on Friday night) and a special Sabbath associated with one of the feasts related to Passover week that might have been on Friday (starting Thursday night). John 19:31 specifies the coming Sabbath with "this Sabbath was a great day" (ESV reads "high day" and NIV reads "special Sabbath"), which at least presents the possibility that he is distinguishing that Sabbath from a more common seventh-day Sabbath: a detail the Church might have missed when establishing its calendar traditions.

So perhaps the solution is that we should be celebrating Good Thursday. Maybe.

Lightfoot's Commentary on the New Testament from the Talmud and Hebraica has some extended discussion on the chronology of the Passion week. I haven't quite sorted through his view on it yet myself.

Yes

“... every day in which I do not penetrate more deeply into the knowledge of God’s Word in Holy Scripture is a lost day for me. I can only move forward with certainty upon the firm ground of the Word of God.”

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Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 10 2010 11:23 AM

Paul Golder:

When I first saw this, I was thinking that someone was indexing on a netbook...Big Smile

 

Now that is FUNNY!

Robert Pavich

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Steve Howard | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 14 2010 12:11 AM

Jesus was in the grave three days and three nights as he was crucified on Thursday the 14th of Nisan with the Passover lambs.  The Sabbath that was approaching was the First day of Unleavened bread on the 15th of Nisan.  You can see this charted out on signofjonah.info

 

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DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 14 2010 1:20 AM

Paul Golder:

"after three nights and three days I will rise again"

When I first saw this, I was thinking that someone was indexing on a netbook...Big Smile

After three nights and three days of indexing you'd probably rising Super Angry or at least Ick! and definitely in need of Coffee

Thank Paul, for the Saturday afternoon smile.

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James W Bennett | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 14 2010 6:01 AM

Vincent Setterholm:
Lightfoot's Commentary on the New Testament from the Talmud and Hebraica has some extended discussion on the chronology of the Passion week. I haven't quite sorted through his view on it yet myself.

There is a Church Father, Aphrahat (ca. 345 AD), who has an extended discussion trying to explain how the three days of Jesus' statement worked. Aphrahat was either a convert from Judaism or was very familiar with the Judaism that existed in his area. He also lived/wrote in a region (modern day Iraq/Iran) where the Semitic roots of Christianity were still very visible and where Greek philosophy had not yet intruded.

The presentation of his argument is sometimes a bit rambling, but to summarize his argument, Apharahat resolves the text through portraying the death of Christ as not on the Cross, but symbolically (unusual for him) when he provided the eucharist as a "type" or representation of his death. Since night had already begun we have Thursday Night, Friday mid-day (the three hours of darkness), and Friday night are the three nights. Friday morning, Friday afternoon (after the three hours of darkness), and Saturday during the day are the three complete days. This causes a small problem for Aphrahat, what about Saturday night/Sunday morning. But Scripture, which is central to Aphrahat, says that the seal for the tomb was rolled away and the angel appeared AS the new day was dawning, Scripture does not say that Jesus rose at this time and Aphrahat presumes that He rose at least a moment or two before the rock was rolled away or before dawn. Therefore, Saturday night does not count as a new or complete night for Aphrahat.

Now to put this thread back to being on topic for the forums... If we could get his writings (23 demonstrations or essays) in Logos it would be wonderful. They are available on the CAL site and Logos already has some kind of an arrangement with CAL. So maybe we can get them in a Logos format?

PLEASE!!!! PRETTY PLEASE!!!! WITH SUGAR ON TOP!!!!

Then we could also get some of the other important Syriac writers in Logos that CAL has available. Such as Ephrem, Ishodad of Merv, Philoxenus, Joshua the Stylite, etc. Smile

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James W Bennett

http://syriac.tara-lu.com/

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 14 2010 7:31 AM

I enjoyed this post, James.

James W Bennett:

Then we could also get some of the other important Syriac writers in Logos that CAL has available. Such as Ephrem, Ishodad of Merv, Philoxenus, Joshua the Stylite, etc. Smile

Yes I'd love to see these made available.

I have a general question (honest question, not rhetorical):

 If Jesus was crucified on Wednesday (like my NT professor said) or Thursday (like many others say), would not the women have gone to the tomb for final preparation of the body earlier than Sunday? After all, they apparently did not expect to find Jesus alive. And they would have had a window of opportunity if he had been placed in the tomb earlier. Remember the burial of Lazarus?  "Master, after 4 days, he stinketh!"   The women would have every motivation to take the earliest opportunity afforded by Jewish law to finish the burial routine.

I don't know. It is just a thought.   I have my leanings but I've been wrong many times before.

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Fred | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 14 2010 7:45 AM

Either the Bible is to be taken literally or it isn't.  I think the original poster asked a good question, and it has been interesting to see how and with what convolutions the seeming contradiction is being explained away...  Smile  Wink

Fred

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 14 2010 8:06 AM

Fred:

Either the Bible is to be taken literally or it isn't.  I think the original poster asked a good question, and it has been interesting to see how and with what convolutions the seeming contradiction is being explained away...  Smile  Wink

Oh, I take the Bible literally. Probably more than most.  But sometimes a reader thinks he is reading what it says when he is really missing the true meaning.

i.e.  Genesis 2:17     I believe God told the truth and Adam and Eve did die that very day. But by limited human understanding it appears the serpent told the truth because Adam walked the earth for 900+ years.

I don't believe a closer examination of scripture is a bad thing. God's word can stand up to the scrutiny and many times our faith is strengthened by the experience. Every "seeming contradiction" should be checked out. That's why the Apostle Paul praised the Bereans.

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David P. Moore | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 14 2010 9:25 AM

Matthew C Jones:
I believe God told the truth and Adam and Eve did die that very day.

I agree, Matthew. Pastor Adrian Rogers explained Gen. 2:17 this way: Adam died immediately in his spirit, progressively in his soul, and ultimately in his body. In other words, the moment Adam ate the fruit, the Spirit left his heart. So from God's point of view, Adam did die on that day: God cannot live in a dirty heart.

To me this verse is a fine example of using scripture to explain scripture, and avoid saying something like "Well, God lied to Adam, cause Adam lived 900 years."

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Bill Coley | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 14 2010 10:58 AM

David P. Moore:

I agree, Matthew. Pastor Adrian Rogers explained Gen. 2:17 this way: Adam died immediately in his spirit, progressively in his soul, and ultimately in his body. In other words, the moment Adam ate the fruit, the Spirit left his heart. So from God's point of view, Adam did die on that day: God cannot live in a dirty heart.

 

I do not do original languages, except with the assistance of reference tools, so I may be way off with this, but from what I can tell, the word translated "die" in Gen 2.17 almost exclusively refers to the cessation of physical life - death, killing, slaying, etc. Are there other uses of that Hebrew word in the OT where the meaning is spiritual abandonment rather than physical death?

And what do you make of Eve's observation about Cain's birth in Gen 4.1, that he is born to her and Adam with God's help? Was she wrong, or did God act, not to bless the dead/abandoned couple, but only to preserve the species (of the dead/abandoned couple)?

Bill Coley

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 14 2010 12:03 PM

James W Bennett:

Now to put this thread back to being on topic for the forums... If we could get his writings (23 demonstrations or essays) in Logos it would be wonderful. They are available on the CAL site and Logos already has some kind of an arrangement with CAL. So maybe we can get them in a Logos format?

PLEASE!!!! PRETTY PLEASE!!!! WITH SUGAR ON TOP!!!!

Then we could also get some of the other important Syriac writers in Logos that CAL has available. Such as Ephrem, Ishodad of Merv, Philoxenus, Joshua the Stylite, etc.

Yes, yes, yes ... so glad to see more of us on the forum who want Eastern resources.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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James W Bennett | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 14 2010 12:09 PM

MJ. Smith:
Yes, yes, yes ... so glad to see more of us on the forum who want Eastern resources.

I think I give a Yes every time you mention early and Eastern texts M.J. Smile But, now that we are on the topic of Eastern resources (and getting back to what Logos forums are for) and since M.J. mentions him in her sig... Is there a possibility of getting Christ the Conquerer of Hell: the Descent into Hades from an Orthodox Perspective, by Archbishop Hilarion Alfeyev as a Logos resource? I bought it for my thesis work and it is a mine of information extracted from patristic and liturgical texts.

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http://syriac.tara-lu.com/

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 14 2010 12:33 PM

This is not aimed at any poster in particular. but this thread is drifting rapidly into theological discussions which are outside the forum guidelines.

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 14 2010 1:39 PM

Jack Caviness:

This is not aimed at any poster in particular. but this thread is drifting rapidly into theological discussions which are outside the forum guidelines.

After composing a post with literal thoughts, checked for more thread responses before posting - share forum guideline theological concern.  Saved my literal thoughts, then tried searching Logos 4 to see if my library had resource(s) with same conclusion.

Searching for thursday NEAR resurrection found an interesting tidbit in The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church.

For searching Logos 4, learned logical terms are case sensitive: "28 AD or AD 28" returns 0 results while "28 AD" OR "AD 28" returns 42 results.  Better understand Wiki page => http://wiki.logos.com/Search_HELP

Also found issue to research => expanding search result causes scroll bar to reset to top in Logos 4 Mac Beta 6 (need to scroll down to see result).

Keep Smiling Smile

 

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DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 14 2010 3:03 PM

Jack Caviness:

This is not aimed at any poster in particular. but this thread is drifting rapidly into theological discussions which are outside the forum guidelines.

You are correct Jack, though I have found it a good discussion, and so far I think well conducted.  Its these sort of discussions I often find valuable.  They are liking a talking commentary, and extension of Logos Bible Software itself..... but being fallen creatures they can easily descend into the depths we shouldn't go as fellow brothers and sisters in Christ.

I'll sum up a few thoughts on things I have found beneficial or thought provoking and leave it at that.

Matthew C Jones:

Oh, I take the Bible literally. Probably more than most.  But sometimes a reader thinks he is reading what it says when he is really missing the true meaning.

i.e.  Genesis 2:17     I believe God told the truth and Adam and Eve did die that very day. But by limited human understanding it appears the serpent told the truth because Adam walked the earth for 900+ years.

I don't believe a closer examination of scripture is a bad thing. God's word can stand up to the scrutiny and many times our faith is strengthened by the experience. Every "seeming contradiction" should be checked out. That's why the Apostle Paul praised the Bereans.

I confess I hadn't thought about this scripture in this way before Matthew.  Thanks for bring it up, its a great illustration, and food for thought.

 

Joe Miller:

wag9570:
Please clearify..............
See if this illustration helps you understand it http://www.morethancake.org/2007/10/christology-who-is-christ.html

Hey Joe, thanks for sharing your work on this, Illustration was most helpful in thinking through this issue.

 

Bill Coley:

I don't know whose advocate I am being when I ask this, but.... Isn't the phrase "extreme literal" redundant in the same way as is "very unique"? Either something is unique or it's not. Either we take the literal meaning of words, or we don't?

Bill I agree it seems a bit redundant but at the same time it reminds me of Steve Runge's work on getting us to look at literary devices that the writer might user to introduce or emphasize and important point they want to get across.  The phrase extreme literal could be used in that sense, to make the point : God said it, I believe it, that's good enough for me. Such devices though should be used carefully.

Vincent Setterholm:

Another tack on the issue is to explore the idea that in the Passion week there may have been two Sabbaths. The normal Saturday Sabbath (that begins on Friday night) and a special Sabbath associated with one of the feasts related to Passover week that might have been on Friday (starting Thursday night). John 19:31 specifies the coming Sabbath with "this Sabbath was a great day" (ESV reads "high day" and NIV reads "special Sabbath"), which at least presents the possibility that he is distinguishing that Sabbath from a more common seventh-day Sabbath: a detail the Church might have missed when establishing its calendar traditions.

So perhaps the solution is that we should be celebrating Good Thursday. Maybe.

Lightfoot's Commentary on the New Testament from the Talmud and Hebraica has some extended discussion on the chronology of the Passion week. I haven't quite sorted through his view on it yet myself.

We are all hanging out to access this resource! As always you bring some interesting thoughts and insights Vincent.

Lynden Williams:

Here is another Logos resource which sheds light on the problem. libronixdls:jump|pos=LLS-AOL:0<V5R280>.2800.0|res=LLS:900.3.1902

Here is the link to the web for the resource: http://www.logos.com/products/details/3441 I dare you. Big Smile

I dared Lynden... and wouldn't mind having this just to gain a perspective on that line of thinking.

Thomas Black:

That article from Bullinger is a great pointer complete with scriptural cross references to explain and demonstrate.  libronixdls:jump|pos=LLS-AOL:0<IDIOMA.I.VIII.12>.0.0|res=LLS:46.50.9

Thomas can we rely on Bullinger, isn't he's scholarship dated ?  Okay just playing Devil's advocate this has already been discussed in another thread. I appreciate having access to Bullinger's thoughts on these sort of issues.

 

Steve Howard:

Jesus was in the grave three days and three nights as he was crucified on Thursday the 14th of Nisan with the Passover lambs.  The Sabbath that was approaching was the First day of Unleavened bread on the 15th of Nisan.  You can see this charted out on signofjonah.info

 

 Thanks for sharing this explanation Steve.  I havent come acros it before.

James W Bennett:

Vincent Setterholm:
Lightfoot's Commentary on the New Testament from the Talmud and Hebraica has some extended discussion on the chronology of the Passion week. I haven't quite sorted through his view on it yet myself.

There is a Church Father, Aphrahat (ca. 345 AD), ...............Now to put this thread back to being on topic for the forums... If we could get his writings (23 demonstrations or essays) in Logos it would be wonderful. They are available on the CAL site and Logos already has some kind of an arrangement with CAL. So maybe we can get them in a Logos format?

PLEASE!!!! PRETTY PLEASE!!!! WITH SUGAR ON TOP!!!!

Then we could also get some of the other important Syriac writers in Logos that CAL has available. Such as Ephrem, Ishodad of Merv, Philoxenus, Joshua the Stylite, etc. Smile

Yes I agree it would be great to have this works available.  That's one of the great things of Logos Bible Software.... having different perspectives at your fingertips.

 

Abi Gail:

OH, That this were the largest issue i had, in understanding Scripture.Smile

I agree, though there are those who challenge the validity of scriptures of issues like this....and probably no amount of argument with them will change their mind because they simply don't want to hear the truth, they'd rather exchange the truth for a lie, but still its good once in  a while to think over and discuss such issues.

Thank you all for you sharing your thoughts. I respect and understand Logos wishes on keeping the theolgocial discussion out of the forums but at the same time love hearing all of your insights... now if we could get everyone to move such discussions over to Truth is Still Truth forum we'd be doing the right thing by Logos but at the same time not missing out on the that extension to Logos 4 of having a 'live talking commentary' on some of these issues.

 

 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 14 2010 3:11 PM

James W Bennett:

MJ. Smith:
Yes, yes, yes ... so glad to see more of us on the forum who want Eastern resources.

I think I give a Yes every time you mention early and Eastern texts M.J. Smile

True. But everything we can do to make it look like there are more of us ... Big Smile And I'm delighted that someone noticed my tag line AND knew who knew of Bishop  Hilarion Alfeyev. Definitely worth a toast.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 158
Fred | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 14 2010 3:17 PM

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):

For searching Logos 4, learned logical terms are case sensitive: "28 AD or AD 28" returns 0 results while "28 AD" OR "AD 28" returns 42 results.

Well, it seems to me as if your two tests (at least as you provided them to us) did not distinguish case as much as whether "or" (or "OR") was included inside the parentheses.

For "28 AD or AD 28", you were searching for that ~exact~ string, ~including~ the "or" in the middle of the string.

For "28 AD" OR "AD 28", you were searching for ~either~ the string "28 AD" ~OR~ the string "AD 28".

Fred

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 14 2010 3:21 PM

Andrew McKenzie:
Thank you all for you sharing your thoughts

Thanks for a good summary. I enjoyed everybody's posts on this one. It is good for study and meditation.

Also, this took my mind off the extreme heat wave we are enduring in the South-Central United States. It's 105.8 ° Fahrenheit in OKC. How cool is it in New Zealand or Australia right now? What about Scotland, Alan? 

          THINK COOL !

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 14 2010 5:42 PM

Fred:

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):

For searching Logos 4, learned logical terms are case sensitive: "28 AD or AD 28" returns 0 results while "28 AD" OR "AD 28" returns 42 results.

Well, it seems to me as if your two tests (at least as you provided them to us) did not distinguish case as much as whether "or" (or "OR") was included inside the parentheses.

For "28 AD or AD 28", you were searching for that ~exact~ string, ~including~ the "or" in the middle of the string.

For "28 AD" OR "AD 28", you were searching for ~either~ the string "28 AD" ~OR~ the string "AD 28".

Noticed pair of quotes disappeared - screen shot illustrates lower case or, effectively searched for "28 AD" AND "or" AND "AD 28":

Changing or to OR (or comma) returns more results:

Reading several results provided more to ponder - living and learning is good Geeked

Keep Smiling Smile

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