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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 25 2016 1:27 AM

I look at this problem from a somewhat different perspective. How often do we see questions in the forums similar to "how do I search for prayers of David that praise God in time of danger?" We have to make the questioner step back to define what they mean by "praise"? by "prayer"? by "time of danger"? What verbal constructions meet those requirements. When you add Logos tagging for searches into the mix, you not only need to know what the requirements are on the text itself but also what are the requirements using the assistance of Logos tagging. This requires that one learn some vocabulary related to that tagging ... otherwise you can't understand what you are asking for and if what you are asking for is what you actually want. This isn't programming vocabulary, it is application vocabulary analogous to Microsoft requiring that you know "style sheet", "references", "links" . . .

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 25 2016 5:22 AM

Bradley Grainger (Faithlife):
For the <PreachingTheme Wealth> search, that entire paragraph/article was tagged as a "reference" to that preaching theme. In my mind, this is incorrect tagging (and I've reported it to Content Production as such)

  1. typing wealth in the Search 'Find' box and clicking 'Theme'  ==> query  <PreachingTheme Wealth> which gives results in 17 resources; then
  2. right clicking a result in a resource and selecting 'Preaching Theme'  ==> query {Section <PreachingTheme = Wealth>} which gives totally different results i.e. with NO results for resources in #1; whilst
  3. typing light in the Search 'Find' box and clicking 'Culture'  ==> query  <Culture Light> which provides NO results from my library, whilst
  4. right clicking light as #2 ==> query {Section <Culture Light>} and many results.

These inconsistencies (#1 & #3) need to be eliminated if users are to be encouraged to type words in the 'Find' box to formulate complex queries. Note that it is not the first time this has been reported.

All this may illustrate what {Section datatype reference} does but it confuses the definition and understanding of datatypes.

Dave
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Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 25 2016 8:15 AM

Help file excerpts and comments:

1. "<DataType ...> — indicates a data type reference of a specified type such as <Bible John 3:16>."

Comment: so far so good. As Jack Sparrow would say, "I like it: simple, easy to remember."

2. "Search terms come in a variety of types: plain text, such as Judah or John 3:16; a specific data type, such as <Person Judah (patriarch)> or <Place Judah (kingdom)> or <Bible John 3:16>; or a search extension term like {Speaker <Person Judah (patriarch)>}.

The type of term determines which dataset or kind of data will be matched. There’s a big difference between searching for the text Judah, which will only match those characters in sequence, and searching for the reference <Person Judah (patriarch)>, which (depending on your library and datasets) will not match where “Judah” refers to the place or the tribe, but will match places where the text “he” or “his” has been tagged as referring to the biblical person Judah son of Jacob."

Comment: what I learn is that there exists different types, and some extensions, and that they work differently depending on the specificity of each. No explanation is provided here that helps differentiate between a data type and an extension. 

3. "Extension terms allow specialized searches introduced with version 6. They are always enclosed in curly braces — ’{’ and ’}’ — and always start with the name of the extension, for example, {PassageList ...} or {Highlight ...}. Each extension has content after the name which can be highly variable depending on the needs of the particular search extension. For example, the Highlight extension takes the name of a highlighter style, and the Label extension takes a series of constraints for defining a label instance in a special query language designed specifically for matching labels."

Comment: This paragraph is mainly a superficial description of extensions (they have curly braces...). The most interesting part of the paragraph is that they "can be highly variable...". This may suggest that this is not the case for data types, although it is not a necessary inference. Hence the suggestion I made earlier of thinking of data types as narrow and extensions as broad which was said to be inaccurate. 

4. "Data Type: A kind or family of information as distinct from other kinds of information. Each data type has its own internal rules and structure. Some of the data types found in Logos:

• Bible
• Date
• Day of Year (for daily devotionals)
• Greek Strong’s Numbers and Hebrew Strong’s Numbers
• Louw-Nida Semantic Domains
• Nag Hammadi Codices
• Page Number
• Pseudepigrapha
• The Laws of Hammurabi
• Works of Philo"

Comment: A highlight, a section, a milestone are also kinds and families of information as distinct from other kinds of information, with their own rules and structure. The word "he" is tagged as referring to the person Abraham and is found by <Person Abraham>. My note on Psalm 23 is tagged as referring to Psalms and is found by {Label Psalms}. As I examined what kind of referents were listed as data types and what kind were extensions, I observed that the former are intrinsically narrowly identified with a word or short phrase while the latter were more properties that were not intrinsically narrowly located. My attempt to formulate this was rejected as inaccurate.

5. "Data Type Reference

A reference to a particular data type. Generally, data type references are marked as hyperlinks, so clicking on the link will open the most appropriate resource for that reference.

When a commentary on the book of Job mentions a particular passage, clicking on the hyperlink will open your preferred Bible to that passage. The hyperlink is a data type reference under the hood. Similarly, a reference to page 45 of the current book may be a data type reference to the page number, and clicking on it will open the book to page 45."

Comment: this does not add anything new to the above as far as I can tell.

Conclusion: According to what Mark wrote, "the good news is that "datatypes" and "datatype references" are easy to understand. Once you've grasped the concepts, everything will fall into place. It really will". Data types do not appear difficult to understand to me, what is difficult to understand is the difference with extensions, and no, I do not find that illumination readily comes from the first to the second. Let me recapitulate what I get from the above:

Various classes of referents are tagged in resources: places, things, persons, etc. The corresponding data type search finds the words or phrases that denote that referent. Some of these are "references" (a location in a resource, such as a Bible reference, a page number, a passage in the fathers). John 3:16 is a unique location in a Bible. The person Abraham, however, is not found at a unique location: it's a bunch of locations tagged as <Person Abraham>.

I still cannot see how this is not also true extensions: I have a bunch of locations tagged with the highlighter style Yellow which I can find using {Highlight Yellow} which is not a data type. Apparently my thought about how they otherwise differ is not right. So I am left to wonder what it is that I am supposed to find out from this that I am obviously not seeing. 

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 25 2016 9:23 AM

Thank you Francis, for taking the time to read up on datatypes and comment. I have to go to church now, but I'll respond as soon as I get back.

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LogosEmployee

Francis, I hope you don't get frustrated and give up on trying to understand this. I feel like you are close. Hopefully some of this extra detail is useful without just making things more confused.

Extension searches exist because we needed a way to search for something that could not be represented in the existing syntax. Frequently (but not always) this is because the data you looking for is not contained directly in the resource like the text is, so a different syntax is needed to tell the application to look someplace else. Some types of extension searches might have more or less in common with searching for a datatype reference, but you really have to examine each type of extension search independently. Don't try to group all extension searches together.

A datatype reference is just an arbitrary piece of data that has been attached to some selection of text. In some cases (like a Bible reference) it has a lot in common with a hyperlink (click on a reference in the text, and it takes you to someplace that tells you about that reference). Searching for a reference means you are searching for all the places that link to information about what you are looking for. But other types of references might cover a larger block of text and not actually behave like a hyperlink.

To understand a {Milestone search, you have to know that most books contain one or more milestone indexes. Each index is a list of references of a particular datatype that point to a particular place in the book. Bibles obviously have a milestone index that use the Bible datatype. Each entry in the Bible milestone index is a Bible reference and points to a specific place in the book. This is what lets you jump to John 3:16 or Genesis 1:1. The {Milestone search lets you find those locations across all your books.

A {PassageList search is similar to a {Milestone search. Rather than finding a single milestone (represented by a datatype reference), it finds a bunch of milestones as defined by the datatype references found in a specific passage list.

A {Highlight search looks text which has been marked up by a particular highlighting palette or style. This is pretty straightforward. Depending on how you tend to mark up your text, this could find arbitrary amounts of text.

A {Section search is a somewhat unfortunate artifact of how some types of data get added to the system. Rather than searching the normal index where datatype references from the resource are stored, it searches for tags that are found in special supplemental resources, hence Bradley's comment about Adoption being mistagged. This type of search is extremely similar to a datatype reference search it's just that because the data is stored someplace different, a different syntax is used to be able to search the different location where the data is stored. See Bradley's comment below.

A {Speaker or {Addressee search is similar to a {Section search. It searches for the data in a special supplemental resource rather than search in the usual index that is built on your computer. It's different from a {Section search, because rather than looking for text that has been marked up with a particular datatype reference, it's instead looking just for text where the speaker or addressee is a particular datatype reference.

A {Label search is the most complicated of the extension searches. It searches for a special type of information that has been added to a block of text (in this way it's similar to a {Section search). Labels might be directly marked up in a resource, or added with a special supplemental resource, or might have been added by a user. A {Label search is complicated, because labels have multiple attributes of different types, and the search syntax allows you to limit exactly which labels are a match by constraining your search based on the values of those attributes.

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 25 2016 1:58 PM

Francis,

I've just typed a long post with lots of detail (I'll post that in a minute), but in that post is a single sentence which I wish I'd thought of earlier, because I think it might be the missing link in your understanding. So I wanted to isolate it here in case you missed it:

You search for datatype references, you search using search extensions.

So when you type <Bible John 3:16> that means you're search for references to John 3:16. But when you type {Milestone XXXX} it means you want to use the special Milestone search to find XXXXX.

I wish I had said that sooner. If the sentence above makes sense to you, it might be more helpful than everything else I've written on the subject, including the long post that follows!

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 25 2016 1:58 PM

First, let's talk about datatypes and datatype references on their own merits — irrespective of search syntax. That way, we won't muddy the waters.

Datatypes

We usually write datatypes between angle brackets, because that's how we search for them. But datatypes are used in other contexts without angle brackets, for example in specifying locations. For example, this is a link to the AYBD that uses the VolumePage datatype: https://ref.ly/logosres/anch;ref=VolumePage.V_1,_p_342 

The help file says that a datatype is "A kind or family of information as distinct from other kinds of information. Each data type has its own internal rules and structure." There are hundreds of datatypes, and there can significant differences between datatypes:

  • Some datatypes can only support a single value <PreachingTheme Adultery>, whilst others can support ranges <LN 96-97>.
  • Some datatypes can have a hierarchy of values <Bible John>, <Bible John 3>, <Bible John 3:16>
  • Some datatypes work in a fairly generic way, whilst others are quite specific. For example, Morph datatypes allow you to specify wildcards in a search, which most datatypes don't (<LogosMorphHeb ~ Va?1?????>).

So if datatypes vary so much, what do they have in common? They're all a way of storing arbitrary pieces of structured data within a resource.

Datatype reference

If a datatype is a specification of structured data, a datatype reference is an instance of structured data. So "Bible" is a datatype. "John 3:16" (internally "bible.64.3.16") is a datatype reference.

Most datatype references are hyperlinked, so that when you click on them another resource that supports that reference opens, according to your prioritisation. (Datatype references are one of two types of hyperlinks. The other type are simple links that go directly to a specific resource.)

But datatype references can be used in other contexts. For example, they're used in milestone indexes to specify locations within resources. They're also generated by tools like Factbook, of course.

Searching for datatype references

When a datatype reference is attached to text, we can search for it using the syntax <DataType Reference>. This search will only ever find occasions where the datatype reference is attached to text. (So searching for John 3:16, will find places where John 3:16 is referred to, but it won't find John 3:16 itself.)

Search extensions

The issue noted above was a problem in Logos 4. We could only search for datatype references when they were attached to text. For example, we couldn't search for datatype references in a milestone index. A milestone index is the index of locations in most resources. The index could be of volume/page numbers, bible references, or any other datatype. It's the inability to search in a milestone index that meant we couldn't find John 3:16 itself.

Theoretically, it would have been possible for Logos to extend search so that <John 3:16> found both references to John 3:16 in the text, and references to John 3:16 in milestone indexes. But then there would be no distinction. Perhaps we only want to find references to John 3:16 in the text, and aren't interested in milestones. Or the other way around.

In addition, users were clamouring for other ways of searching. Some people wanted to search within highlights.Other datasets were being developed, which marked arbitrary sections of text, and we'd want to search those too.

So Faithlife decided to introduce a new category of search, which they called search extensions, and these were indicated with curly braces.

There's a lot of variety in search extensions, but there are also important differences between search extensions and datatypes. The primary purpose of datatypes is to store structured data in a resource. Search is secondary. The primary purpose of search extensions is to extend search capability. That means that you search for datatype references, you search using search extensions.

A search extension will often allow you to specify datatype references in a special way. So searches such as {Milestone <Bible John 3:16>} allows you to search for any datatype that occurs in a milestone index. But {Highlight Yellow} has a difference specification. Then you're not searching for datatypes at all.

I think I'll pause there. You probably have follow-up questions...

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 25 2016 2:07 PM

Extensions from Help documentation

  • Independent
    • Addressee
    • Highlight
    • PassageList
    • Speaker
  • Label
    • Biblical annotation datasets
      • Figurative Language
      • Longacre Genre
    • Interactive dataset labels
      • Intertext
      • Miracles
      • Proverbs
      • Psalm
    • Other datasets
      • Bible Books Supplemental Dataset
      • Bullinger's Figures of Speech
      • Propositional Outline
    • Resource labels
      • Bible Outline
      • Journal Article
      • Lectionary Reading
      • Personal Letter
      • Sermon
  • Milestone
    • finds citations; use resource information to identify relevant datatypes
  • Section
    • Culture
    • Event
    • Figurative language (FigLangCat, FigLangTerrn, FigLangType)
    • Grammatical Constructions
    • Literary Typing
    • Preaching Theme (when applied to the Bible text)
    • Sentence
    • Speech Act

The fact that the Morris Proctor materials only show how to initiate the search from the right click menu and do not show the search itself does not help in making these searches approachable.

The fact that there are datasets for Speaking to God and Sacrifices but no documentation of a Search function does not help in making these searches approachable.

The fact that Help is inconsistent in providing the link to potential values does not help in making these searches approachable.

However, it does appear to be true that the search terms for extensions are always either a datatype or an attribute of a label so In that sense they do form a cohesive unit that requires that the user know only two pieces of information both of which are widely used in the application.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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GaoLu | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 25 2016 5:55 PM

I am finding this extremely helpful.  Gives me hope enough to dig deeper into this.  Please keep going :)

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Andrew Batishko (Faithlife):
A {Section search is a somewhat unfortunate artifact of how some types of data get added to the system. Rather than searching the normal index where datatype references from the resource are stored, it searches for tags that are found in special supplemental resources, hence Bradley's comment about Adoption being mistagged. This type of search is extremely similar to a datatype reference search it's just that because the data is stored someplace different, a different syntax is used to be able to search the different location where the data is stored.

I'm going to disagree.

The {Section syntax is not needed because the data is stored in a different place. (The search engine would be quite capable of retrieving data from all sorts of different places and merging it together.)

The {Section syntax is used because we're talking about a different kind of annotation. There are three primary ways we can categorise the relationship of text to a data type reference:

  • the content of that reference, e.g., "In the beginning was the Word..." is the content of John 1:1. When you look up John 1:1, that's where you go.
  • reference to that reference, e.g., "see John 1:1". This is the most common use of data type references in the system, and what the syntax <John 1:1> searches for
  • text about that reference, e.g., a commentary on John 1:1

In the early days of the Logos search engine, the second kind of annotation (reference) was the only thing you could search for, and what the search syntax was designed to enable.

It became clear that searching for milestones would be a useful enhancement, so we introduced the {Milestone syntax.

At the same time, we began realising that the third kind of annotation wasn't supported well in the Logos format. (That's the root cause of <PreachingTheme Wealth> being added (incorrectly, in my view) as a reference in the example I cited earlier: the right kind of tagging wasn't available to the resource owners. In fact, if I could turn back time, I probably wouldn't have Bible Commentaries tagged with Bible milestones—which constantly causes problems when unwary users prioritise them above their Bibles—but tagged as being about that verse. But it's a little late for that now.)

So when we started making supplemental data resources searchable, we also introduced the {Section search extension. Consider the "PreachingTheme Wealth" example. The text isn't a definition of the preaching theme (that would be in the Preaching Themes Glossary resource). It's also not an explicit reference to the theme (e.g., "see Wealth"). Rather, it's a biblical text or a sermon that's topically related to that preaching theme, or is a discussion of it. All these "related" or "about" texts can be found through {Section (if the appropriate datasets are in your system).

If we need to make more fine-grained distinctions about the relationship of the text to the data type reference it's being annotated with, we will create labels with specific properties and then you would have to use a {Label search to find them.

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Bradley Grainger (Faithlife):

I'm going to disagree.

Outstanding! Thanks for the correction.

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I should emphasise that due to the way things have developed over time, you can probably find many counterexamples of data being tagged as a reference where it shouldn't be, or being used inappropriately as a milestone, etc. Our ability to change these and standardise everything according to our current taxonomy is limited.

That doesn't negate the fundamental concept that there are distinct kinds of relationships between a section of text and a data type reference. These are encoded differently inside Logos resources, and the search engine surfaces that difference.

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Mark Barnes:
You search for datatype references, you search using search extensions.

I think this is a very helpful distinction.

You can even think of each search extension as being a "mini search engine" embedded inside the main Logos search engine. 

That's why I keep saying "there's not a simple way to summarise them", each one is used for "other things", "there is no simple answer", etc.

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Bradley Grainger (Faithlife):
There are three primary ways

A fourth way is for a word (or phrase) in a tagged text to be an instance or example of a classification. Lemmas, morphs, roots, senses, etc. all fall into this category. These are currently tagged as "references" (group #2 in my earlier post) in Logos, but are not hyperlinks.

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PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 26 2016 12:56 AM

May I make a suggestion?

This information should be made available in the Courses tool. Don't leave these details buried in a forum thread or in the heads of developers and power users.

Please guide people through learning the search terminology and functionality of the software.

I am sure there is a wealth of information here, and it just needs to be organized into a course, so people (like me) can learn it from beginning to end.

As Fr. Devin mentioned in another post, there is a lot on the wiki and the help system, but if you just vaguely leave it up to us to figure out on our own, it's honestly a bit too intimidating to tackle, or progress by teaching ourselves.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 26 2016 1:17 AM

TIP of the day: Putting a search together: Jesus speaking to God the Father in the Passion Narrative

TIP of the day: Reference operators in Search arguments

TIP of the day: Why is Search so ______________ difficult?

TIP of the day: Putting a search together: Jesus called Lamb, Lamb of God, Paschal Lamb ,,,

TIP of the day: Special search fields - Amplified Bible

Tip of the day: basic search options (Search panel icon menu) and drop-down options

TIP of the day: Search foreign languages - French, German, Spanish ...

TIP of the day: Add Collection or Commentary; Search milestone or reference

TIP of the day: Nitty-gritty of the very basic search

TIP of the day: Putting a search together: Finding the Suffering Servant songs

TIP of the day: Basic Search results options

TIP of the day: Putting a search together: Hannah's song and the Magnificat

TIP of the day: one common search error and its fix

TIP of the day: How do I find 2 or more passages used in the same Systematic theology article?

TIP of the day: Searches built by Guides

TIP of the day: Context menu searches for English New Testament part 1

TIP of the day:Term modifiers - specifying language and mark sensitivity

TIP of the day: Logos tagging #13: shortcut for Searching on tags

TIP of the day: Lemma searching for Hebrew

et. al.

Know that's not what you want but giving a sense of the about of information available

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 26 2016 1:18 AM

I think one of the "problems" here is the lingo. It's like listening to two medical doctors or two car mechanics discussing something, and not understanding the terminology, never mind the anatomy or how an engine works.

The how's and whys are probably interesting, but I think most of the terms go over peoples' heads, and frankly keep us from grasping what the software can truly do.

How do you bridge the gap between the technical know-how and the simpler, practical explanations? If we can't explain something that a four-year-old can grasp, perhaps it comes down to the terms we use for these concepts?

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Cynthia in Florida | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 26 2016 1:35 AM

PetahChristian:

I think one of the "problems" here is the lingo. It's like listening to two medical doctors or two car mechanics discussing something, and not understanding the terminology, never mind the anatomy or how an engine works.

The how's and whys are probably interesting, but I think most of the terms go over peoples' heads, and frankly keep us from grasping what the software can truly do.

How do you bridge the gap between the technical know-how and the simpler, practical explanations? If we can't explain something that a four-year-old can grasp, perhaps it comes down to the terms we use for these concepts?

Yup, Yup, YUP!

Cynthia

Romans 8:28-38

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PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 26 2016 1:49 AM

MJ. Smith:

Know that's not what you want but giving a sense of the about of information available

One of the things I like about the Courses tool is that I can filter courses by beginner, intermediate, and advanced.

If the search tips could be categorized the same way, we'd be able to progress through beginner tips, and so on, and finally master everything.

The other thing about a course is that it builds on the material within the course. For example, there is an introduction, then you get into more details, then you have an activity to explore/apply what you learned, then there's a test.

It might help if the search tips use something like Mobile Ed numbering. That way, even within the beginner search tips, someone would realize they would probably need to read a 101 or 102 level beginner tip, before a 131 level beginner tip, just so we can ensure we have the necessary "prerequisites" before delving into a different tip.

I think what makes the course more successful is that it's all neatly categorized and packaged and easily repeatable.

The key is to convert the wealth of forum/wiki details to make them accessible right within the courses tool.

Posts 119
Gary Mendenhall | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 26 2016 2:18 AM

My head is spinning after reading through this thread.  I guess that's normal.Huh?Big Smile

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