O'Brien NSBT volumes

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This post has 63 Replies | 4 Followers

Posts 864
LogosEmployee
Ben Amundgaard (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Posted: Tue, Sep 27 2016 10:37 AM

Just a note to say that we are aware of this situation and will post with more details as we have them.

http://rushtopress.org/pr16092609.html

To be clear, we will not force you to return your resources. You own them.

Manager, Bible Study Products Department

Posts 879
P A | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 27 2016 10:47 AM

The whole situation is so sad.

We need to pray for Peter O'Brian

P A

Posts 1977
Joseph Turner | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 27 2016 10:50 AM

P A:

The whole situation is so sad.

We need to pray for Peter O'Brian

P A

Yes

Disclaimer:  I hate using messaging, texting, and email for real communication.  If anything that I type to you seems like anything other than humble and respectful, then I have not done a good job typing my thoughts.

Posts 6407
DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 27 2016 11:19 AM

As so and so has so eloquently stated, "This whole scenario is a sad one. Prayers on behalf of O'Brien are needed." And as so and so has tenderly expressed, "We must give a thumbs up" to welcome prayers on this whole issue!

And as I have, myself, stated on several occasions, "You have got to start wondering how 'unintentional' these errors really are." The comments of some dear friend of mine stand true as of now. He uttered it this way, "I guess we'll never know." Meanwhile, several questions arise: "Is this even a salvation issue?" If so, "Why are customers given the option to keep or not to keep a work full of plagiarism?" As another source has aptly reiterated, "I guess is not for us to know..."

Anyway, I guess I will report R.T. Kendall and his "Understanding Theology" volumes where he's clearly plagiarized and quoted the New Bible Dictionary and has not given any credit whatsoever to the sources. I hope nobody thinks I'm picking on him, since  I had the time to go over his works and discover his plagiarism.

 Wow some people do really have too much time on their hands! Sorry for not quoting the source of this saying, but it's so popular I can't help but just repeating a normal everyday saying.

DAL

Ps. The things people worry about!

Posts 2250
mab | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 27 2016 12:06 PM

I think these got yanked from the D.A.Carson package L7 deal too and it looks like there wasn't even a price change for the dynamic. 

What a mess. Need to add Carson to the prayer list as it was on his watch.

The mind of man is the mill of God, not to grind chaff, but wheat. Thomas Manton | Study hard, for the well is deep, and our brains are shallow. Richard Baxter

Posts 6407
DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 27 2016 12:14 PM

mab:

I think these got yanked from the D.A.Carson package L7 deal too and it looks like there wasn't even a price change for the dynamic. 

What a mess. Need to add Carson to the prayer list as it was on his watch.

Yeah, like that time when Baker asked Logos to remove their products from L4 LE and the price didn't change one bit nor replacement resources were added. And to top it all off, the worse release from Logos base packages came out later; i.e. Logos 5...Sad, sad...

Posts 298
LogosEmployee
Matthew Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 27 2016 2:24 PM

The D.A. Carson Logos 7 Exclusive Bundle does not include any volumes from the NSBT series.

I've been working on the 34 volume NSBT collection today, and just finished it up. I've also updated the price.

Also, the titles from the NSBT Upgrade collection have not been added to the larger, now 34 volume, collection.

Posts 2250
mab | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 27 2016 5:56 PM

I think I've been spending too long looking at all the stuff in the Logos website. Gets to blur what has what. Sorry for the miss on my assessment.

Considering how few volumes get yanked overall, it's a testimony to the overall excellence of our resources.

There's a whole lot of stuff in the larger "Christian" market that should have never been printed in the first place, but that's another matter entirely. Maybe we should have a thread about repurposing bad books. Too bad you can't do that with electronic versions of them.

The mind of man is the mill of God, not to grind chaff, but wheat. Thomas Manton | Study hard, for the well is deep, and our brains are shallow. Richard Baxter

Posts 2825
Michael Childs | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 29 2016 8:05 AM

We certainly need to pray for Dr. Peter O'Brien.  He has to be under tremendous stress now.

It is clear that he failed to document or acknowledge properly some source material.  I suspect that if every author in our library was put under the microscope and examined as the work of Peter O'Brien is being examined, he would have lots of company,  

Even with the acknowledged flaws with regard to documenting source material, his commentaries are among the most helpful I have found.  I am not saying that to justify the sloppy documentation.  I just wish Dr. O'Brien could go back and correct the failures in his commentaries, rather than publishers simply withdrawing them.

This whole situation is a wake up call to all writers.  I pray for Dr. O'Brien, and I think God for gifts and talents that he has.  His writing has helped me.   If he publishes any more commentaries, I would interested in buying them. 

I believe in grace and second chances.

"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley

Posts 3187
Whyndell Grizzard | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 29 2016 8:11 AM

I think the sensible solution is a letter of apology (even though intentional wrong doing is not suspected) also a list or bibliography of undocumented materials.

This is not unreasonable, since the resources must already be known.

Posts 464
Nord Zootman | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 29 2016 9:05 AM

Yes well said.

Michael Childs:

We certainly need to pray for Dr. Peter O'Brien.  He has to be under tremendous stress now.

It is clear that he failed to document or acknowledge properly some source material.  I suspect that if every author in our library was put under the microscope and examined as the work of Peter O'Brien is being examined, he would have lots of company,  

Even with the acknowledged flaws with regard to documenting source material, his commentaries are among the most helpful I have found.  I am not saying that to justify the sloppy documentation.  I just wish Dr. O'Brien could go back and correct the failures in his commentaries, rather than publishers simply withdrawing them.

This whole situation is a wake up call to all writers.  I pray for Dr. O'Brien, and I think God for gifts and talents that he has.  His writing has helped me.   If he publishes any more commentaries, I would interested in buying them. 

I believe in grace and second chances.

Posts 26527
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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 29 2016 12:05 PM

Michael Childs:
I suspect that if every author in our library was put under the microscope and examined as the work of Peter O'Brien is being examined, he would have lots of company,  

I find this a very sad commentary on segments of society - in my circles it would result in dismissal ... even "borrowing" a student's unpublished works results in dismissal. And with the tools on the internet it is so easy to check.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 503
Sarel Slabbert | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 29 2016 1:35 PM

Michael Childs:

It is clear that he failed to document or acknowledge properly some source material.  I suspect that if every author in our library was put under the microscope and examined as the work of Peter O'Brien is being examined, he would have lots of company,  

I fully agree. It is so easy to plagiarize if you are not careful. In any study you read a lot of material which shape your thinking and ideas. If you do not keep meticulous notes, you can easily write a passage from memory, thinking it was your own words, while actually unintentionally copying another authors ideas.  I understand that authors need to be extremely careful, but I think it is easier to fall into this trap than most of us think.

Posts 5020
DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 29 2016 3:33 PM

Michael Childs:

We certainly need to pray for Dr. Peter O'Brien.  He has to be under tremendous stress now.

It is clear that he failed to document or acknowledge properly some source material.  I suspect that if every author in our library was put under the microscope and examined as the work of Peter O'Brien is being examined, he would have lots of company,  

Even with the acknowledged flaws with regard to documenting source material, his commentaries are among the most helpful I have found.  I am not saying that to justify the sloppy documentation.  I just wish Dr. O'Brien could go back and correct the failures in his commentaries, rather than publishers simply withdrawing them.

This whole situation is a wake up call to all writers.  I pray for Dr. O'Brien, and I think God for gifts and talents that he has.  His writing has helped me.   If he publishes any more commentaries, I would interested in buying them. 

I believe in grace and second chances.

MJ. Smith:

Michael Childs:
I suspect that if every author in our library was put under the microscope and examined as the work of Peter O'Brien is being examined, he would have lots of company,  

I find this a very sad commentary on segments of society - in my circles it would result in dismissal ... even "borrowing" a student's unpublished works results in dismissal. And with the tools on the internet it is so easy to check.

From a professional and academic point of view this should not have happened - but it has and I am with Michael on his response to it.  The publishers have dealt with that aspect as they necessary from that professional / academic point of view.  Beyond that Peter O'Brien is a real person and a very genuine one I've heard from friends who know him personally. As a community of believers we should now extend to him the grace and forgiveness - if somehow we think we have been wronged by Peter in this situation. The fact is that none of us are deserving of grace or forgiveness - I know am certainly not, I fail to live up to God's glory everyday - but we extend that grace to Peter because God has extended it to us.

We can be like the religious leaders in the gospels and pass judgement because the rules of our circle were not adhered or we can be reminded of Paul's comments to the Romans that we are all sinners,regardless of our background, regardless of the circles to which we belong or how well we have kept the rules of said circle. We have all fallen short of God's glory. Without Christ we are all in trouble.

As for me, as I said earlier I join with Michael, and others, in prayer for Peter O'Brien, and James Varner for that matter, because what is more important right now is their personal well being - physical, emotional and spiritual -  rather than passing our continued judgement on their failures.

Posts 2467
Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 29 2016 5:02 PM

Michael Childs:

I suspect that if every author in our library was put under the microscope and examined ... he would have lots of company,  

Sarel Slabbert:

It is so easy to plagiarize if you are not careful. In any study you read a lot of material which shape your thinking and ideas. If you do not keep meticulous notes, you can easily write a passage from memory, thinking it was your own words, while actually unintentionally copying another authors ideas.

I am not condemning the authors or anything. I'm just pointing to the demonstrable fact that some passages are reproduced at length, and almost verbatim. It can't be free recall. If this is spotted in a student's paper, he'd be at a loss to explain it.

Posts 421
Leo Wee Fah | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 29 2016 7:58 PM

Amen.

Posts 72
Andrew116 | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 29 2016 9:12 PM

The example I saw was almost verbatim from FF Bruce, and Bruce was attributed in the footnote. It was just not indicated that his actual words were being used. I can see how that could easily happen. 

To understand how easy it would be to make these mistakes, consider this.

As you take notes from books, sometimes you write it in your own words. Sometimes you use theirs. Of course in the second case, you ought to note this somehow, with quotation marks or the like. 

Suppose you forget to put the quote marks around? Or you are taking notes by hand, and miss them when you refer to them later (maybe years later). You reference Bruce, because your notes tell you the ideas are his. But you don't realise the words are his too. Long career of otherwise meticulous scholarship down the drain. 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 29 2016 11:41 PM

Andrew Hayes:

To understand how easy it would be to make these mistakes, consider this.

As you take notes from books, sometimes you write it in your own words. Sometimes you use theirs. Of course in the second case, you ought to note this somehow, with quotation marks or the like. 

Suppose you forget to put the quote marks around? Or you are taking notes by hand, and miss them when you refer to them later (maybe years later). You reference Bruce, because your notes tell you the ideas are his. But you don't realise the words are his too. Long career of otherwise meticulous scholarship down the drain. 

This mistake is something that most freshmen in college are trained to avoid ... it used to be that they suggested different colors of cards for quotes, summaries, personal ideas and questions. Yes, it is easy to make mistakes ... but students are also taught how to check their work. If it is so easy to make mistakes and so hard to avoid error then there would be so many such errors that they would not be newsworthy.

One can support the authors without condoning their errors. Speaking for myself, I would question the scholarship of any other scholar who excused the behavior ... I hope the forums are not indicative of how wide a circle that might be.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 72
Andrew116 | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 30 2016 12:46 AM

Sounds like you were taught a good system. I'm far from a scholar, but so far I've never been taught a method like that. We have of course been warned against plagiarism, but perhaps not taught the techniques of avoiding it so thoroughly as you have. 

Not condoning his behaviour - I don't think anyone here is. I was just thinking through how such a thing could have happened, and in the process of writing my own assignment today I realised how easy it could be. 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 30 2016 2:17 AM

To give you an idea of how seriously scholars take attribution, I am mentioned in a footnote of a book authored by a professor / friend. My contribution? mentioning in a casual conversation where a particular Purana mentioned an animal. I certainly wasn't expecting credit but Jack wanted to be sure I could use it in my dissertation as my discovery if I wished.

It was similarly drilled into my son in a required Community College study skills class and I've seen it in standard study skills orientation offer by state colleges in several states. My second grandson has just started college ... I'll need to ask him what study skills / paper conventions he's being taught. I suspect they're a bit different as his final product is to be a podcast not a text. Surprise

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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