O'Brien NSBT volumes

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Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 30 2016 4:43 AM

In serious works, even ideas dropped in casual chit-chat are credited as "private conversation with so-and-so" or something similar.

Posts 72
Andrew116 | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 30 2016 5:11 AM

Perhaps the Australian school system isn't as thorough - both myself and O'Brien hail from down under, where we convicts steal anything we can get our hands on.

Posts 6406
DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 30 2016 5:34 AM

 We should discredit the apostle Paul then since he quoted poets and philosophers of his time in Acts and Titus and yet he did not give any credit to them.  From now on I will no longer quote those verses where he failed to give credit to the authors.   In fact we should wipe out those verses from the Bible and consider them uninspired because he plagiarized.  That would be the right thing to do according to the logic of these so-called scholars and their rules. 🙄

 I think the right thing to do would've been to allow O'Brien and Varner to fix their work and that's it,  but I guess that's unacceptable in the academic world  which probably doesn't have the concept of second chances included in their dictionary.

DAL

Posts 1496
Josh | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 30 2016 7:03 AM

DAL:
We should discredit the apostle Paul then since he quoted poets and philosophers of his time in Acts and Titus and yet he did not give any credit to them.

Source?

Posts 6406
DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 30 2016 7:30 AM

Josh:

DAL:
We should discredit the apostle Paul then since he quoted poets and philosophers of his time in Acts and Titus and yet he did not give any credit to them.

Source?

Acts 17:28 and Titus 1:12

This is pretty much a "as so and so said..." with no name cited. Really Paul, which poet?

DAL

Posts 80
Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 30 2016 7:41 AM

DAL:

Josh:

DAL:
We should discredit the apostle Paul then since he quoted poets and philosophers of his time in Acts and Titus and yet he did not give any credit to them.

Source?

Acts 17:28 and Titus 1:12

This is pretty much a "as so and so said..." with no name cited. Really Paul, which poet?

DAL

Taken from: Paul and his Use of Greek Philosophy (https://biblethingsinbibleways.wordpress.com/2013/07/14/paul-and-his-use-of-greek-philosophy/)

Titus 1:12
The Cretians are always liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.

In writing to Titus Paul quotes a description of the Cretans taken from “Epimenides“. Paul calls Epimenides “one of themselves, a prophet of their own”.

Acts 17:24-29
In Acts 17:18 Paul is encountered by Epicureans and Stoics. Paul’s first sentence struck directly at the “Epicurean” theory (the origin of the world by mere coincidence and of atoms) and arrayed himself with the “Stoics” in their doctrine of the (Divine Wisdom and Providence creating and ruling all things). His speech is made up of words quoted from a Roman Stoic Philosopher called Lucius Annaeus Seneca as mentioned below.

Posts 879
P A | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 30 2016 7:59 AM

In defence of Paul he was using the standards of his time.

Also Paul did not write Acts, but his fellow companion Luke.

P A

Posts 1496
Josh | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 30 2016 8:19 AM

DAL:

Josh:

DAL:
We should discredit the apostle Paul then since he quoted poets and philosophers of his time in Acts and Titus and yet he did not give any credit to them.

Source?

Acts 17:28 and Titus 1:12

This is pretty much a "as so and so said..." with no name cited. Really Paul, which poet?

DAL

Sigh, sometimes my wit escapes people....

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Ted Hans | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 30 2016 9:40 AM

DAL:

Acts 17:28 and Titus 1:12

This is pretty much a "as so and so said..." with no name cited. Really Paul, which poet?

DAL

This is getting rather confusing. Paul acknowledges that these sayings came from one of their poet, he is not putting forward these ideas as if were his or originated with him.  

Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ

Posts 6406
DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 30 2016 9:41 AM

P A:

In defence of Paul he was using the standards of his time.

Also Paul did not write Acts, but his fellow companion Luke.

P A

Then why did Paul say, Our LORD SAID 'it is more blessed to give than to receive'  to refer to Jesus.  Or Peter when he said our beloved brother Paul wrote some things that are hard to understand.  They both specified individuals...not that I really care about this whole issue, just trying to prove a point; mainly this:

 I think this whole plagiarism baloney is man-made to protect their own interests.   It all boils down to money... may their money perish with them!

DAL 

Posts 6406
DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 30 2016 10:09 AM

Ted Hans:

DAL:

Acts 17:28 and Titus 1:12

This is pretty much a "as so and so said..." with no name cited. Really Paul, which poet?

DAL

This is getting rather confusing. Paul acknowledges that these sayings come from one of their poet, he is not putting forward these ideas as if was his or originated with him.  

 He still didn't provide proper citation which is the issue or part of the issue here, according to the "scholars" pa'trolling' O'Brien and Varner but not a bunch of others. Anyway, who cares about those ravenous wolves! 

DAL

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Ted Hans | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 30 2016 11:11 AM

DAL:
 He still didn't provide proper citation which is the issue or part of the issue here, according to the "scholars" pa'trolling' O'Brien and Varner but not a bunch of others. Anyway, who cares about those ravenous wolves!

Okay Dal SmileBig SmileStick out tongue

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Posts 6406
DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 30 2016 11:14 AM

Ted Hans:

DAL:
 He still didn't provide proper citation which is the issue or part of the issue here, according to the "scholars" pa'trolling' O'Brien and Varner but not a bunch of others. Anyway, who cares about those ravenous wolves!

Okay Dal SmileBig SmileStick out tongue

Yep not worth worrying about it 😜😁👌

Posts 516
Bobby Terhune | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 30 2016 11:35 AM

Dr. O'Brien has admitted to making unintended mistakes, but as Christians we should restore and heal instead of destroying. To take all that he has done and send it to the shredder seems harsh for something that both publishers said that they believed was done unintentionally.

In some ways I think we have created this problem because the church wanted to "convince" the secular world by "argument" that Christianity was superior to their pagan worship, or any worldly philosophy.

That of course required Christian scholars that would be recognized by the secular world as being equal to them in scholarship. We wanted to be taken seriously by secular academia. I fear that we have adopted the world's thinking about higher education to the point we are indistinguishable from them.    

Posts 516
Bobby Terhune | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 30 2016 11:37 AM

Dr. Stanley E. Porter, president of McMaster Divinity College wrote the following about O'Brien.

Please see the link below for all his comments.

https://domainthirtythree.com/2016/09/05/the-shocking-news-of-peter-obrien-and-plagiarism-august-is-the-cruellest-month/

Commentaries for some time have become (rarely otherwise) little more than compendia of other people’s knowledge. With so many commentaries being produced in endless series, and with there being very little to distinguish most of them, there are only so many new things to be said and only so many new ways to say them in any commentary. In fact, I believe that the acceptable convention of commentary writing today is essentially to repeat what others have said before you, even if you massage their words in various ways. Therefore, I find it hard to fathom that there is so much self-righteous indignation over Peter O’Brien’s supposed plagiarism in several commentaries. I think that O’Brien, if he did plagiarize (and I wish to question this), may well have simply been following the convention of current commentary writing—an inevitability that has become an accepted norm. From my experience of reading commentaries, I suspect that many commentary writers would not like anyone looking too closely at how they have written theirs, simply because the use of other commentators is exactly what writing a commentary (unfortunately) has become.

I find it interesting that the notion of plagiarism has developed into what it has become. If the New Testament authors cite or closely paraphrase Old Testament writers but without attribution, we consider this a meaningful citation or allusion and engage in all sorts of exegetical gymnastics (and write endless books) to ascertain their meanings and motives—but we do not accuse them of plagiarism. Why? Because that is the convention of the ancient writers (as I believe the convention is for contemporary commentary writers). This is also true of more recent authors. If Shakespeare uses Holinshed’s Chronicles or earlier versions of the story of Hamlet, we don’t call Shakespeare a plagiarist, we instead call him the most brilliant writer of the English language who ever lived. If a contemporary author invokes an earlier author, such as Shakespeare or any number of others, we may spend hours determining the nature of the invocation or its purpose—but again we don’t call it plagiarism, we call it literary allusion and commend the learnedness of the author (as in the allusion to T.S. Eliot above).

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 30 2016 1:06 PM

DAL:
 We should discredit the apostle Paul then since he quoted poets and philosophers of his time in Acts and Titus and yet he did not give any credit to them.  From now on I will no longer quote those verses where he failed to give credit to the authors.   In fact we should wipe out those verses from the Bible and consider them uninspired because he plagiarized.  That would be the right thing to do according to the logic of these so-called scholars and their rules. 🙄

Had the concept of intellectual property existed at the time of Paul. However, it is a very recent concept - think circa 1700.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 30 2016 1:08 PM

Andrew Hayes:

Perhaps the Australian school system isn't as thorough - both myself and O'Brien hail from down under, where we convicts steal anything we can get our hands on.

I'll cut you slack as the home of Rationale software for education. Big Smile

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 30 2016 1:11 PM

DAL:
I think this whole plagiarism baloney is man-made to protect their own interests.   It all boils down to money... may their money perish with them!

Exactly ... so that writers, composers, artists, programmers, engineers, inventors can make a living without the patronage of a court. You understand history very well.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 30 2016 1:16 PM

Bobby Terhune:
That of course required Christian scholars that would be recognized by the secular world as being equal to them in scholarship. We wanted to be taken seriously by secular academia. I fear that we have adopted the world's thinking about higher education to the point we are indistinguishable from them.    

Er ... ah ... check your history as education was initially a religious enterprise ... even when my great-grandfather was educated, education was primarily religious. It is the secular education which is new and less disciplined allowing one to study only a single side of an issue or to divorce a study from its philosophical underpinnings. The church has convinced the secular world by argument since its founding - look at Jewish argumentation and Paul in front of pagan temples.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 30 2016 1:25 PM

Bobby Terhune:

Dr. Stanley E. Porter, president of McMaster Divinity College wrote the following about O'Brien.

Please see the link below for all his comments.

This has been brought up before. I hate to think of the damage done to the reputation of Dr. Porter and McMaster Divinity College. Yes, people build on the work of those who proceed them. Yes, there is a reason why reception history commentaries are becoming more frequent e.g. Blackwell Bible Commentaries. It is also true that with linguistic advances and advances in cultural understanding, in philosophical hermeneutics, computer assisted pattern recognition ... that there are new things to say. Not new meaning in the text but new ways to tease it out, verify it, present it. Why would an author accept a contract to write a commentary if he has nothing new to say? introductory textbooks yes but a commentary?

The thing is that a couple of authors made a serious mistake. The humiliation is more than sufficient punishment - simply remove the books from sales and move on. The attempt to justify the mistake is what is doing the most harm to a group of scholars and institutions because of what it implies about their standards.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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