Essential Resources Missing in Orthodox and Verbum Base packages

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This post has 16 Replies | 2 Followers

Posts 32
KJB1611 | Forum Activity | Posted: Wed, Oct 12 2016 8:36 AM

Logos has left out two essential resources from its Orthodox and Catholic base packages.

The Gottingen Septuagint:

https://www.logos.com/product/4951/gottingen-septuagint

is not present in any Orthodox base package.  This is the standard edition of the LXX.  It does not make sense at all when the Orthodox view the LXX as inspired to not have the standard critical edition of the LXX in any base package.  The Gottingen also ought to be (at least) in the standard base package, the Collector's edition, if not also in a lower level of the standard package such as diamond or portfolio.

Furthermore, the standard edition of the Latin Vulgate with its apparatus is missing in all Catholic/Verbum base packages:

https://www.logos.com/product/17846/vulgate-with-apparatus

It is crazy to not include the tagged/standard edition of the Latin Vulgate with its apparatus in any Catholic base package, not to mention in other base packages--it ought to be in the standard base package at a relatively low level as well, IMO.

I think these omissions must be oversights.  I know that Logos likes to put a lot of public domain resources in its base packages since such resources are 100% profit for the company, but surely the texts the Orthodox and Catholics think are inspired or at least authoritative ought to be in their base packages in their standard critical editions, and such important resources ought to also be in the standard base package.

The omission of these resources also makes the Orthodox and Catholic base packages substantially less attractive to me as a separatist Baptist (who, of course, thinks that his system of belief represents genuine orthodoxy, but that is not the point of this post).

Logos, could you please update some base packages to include the tagged Vulgate and the Gottingen LXX?  Thank you!

Posts 2564
David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 17 2016 4:33 AM

KJB1611:

I think these omissions must be oversights.  I know that Logos likes to put a lot of public domain resources in its base packages since such resources are 100% profit for the company, but surely the texts the Orthodox and Catholics think are inspired or at least authoritative ought to be in their base packages in their standard critical editions, and such important resources ought to also be in the standard base package.

Maybe the cost of the LXX??   [Just posted to let you know that somebody is reading this]

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 17 2016 11:15 PM

KJB1611:
but surely the texts the Orthodox and Catholics think are inspired or at least authoritative ought to be in their base packages in their standard critical editions, and such important resources ought to also be in the standard base package.

I suspect that the Orthodox and Catholic traditions have the "average user" making less use of these resources - the focus on the grammatical technicals and manuscript traditions tends to be left to scholars who are trained in the area rather than people with a term or two. It is useful to have them but being able to trace reception history in various forms hold a more significant place than it does in the protestant tradition.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 5315
DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 18 2016 2:21 AM

KJB1611:

Furthermore, the standard edition of the Latin Vulgate with its apparatus is missing in all Catholic/Verbum base packages:

https://www.logos.com/product/17846/vulgate-with-apparatus

is not present in any Orthodox base package. 

KJB1611:

Logos has left out two essential resources from its Orthodox and Catholic base packages.

The Gottingen Septuagint:

https://www.logos.com/product/4951/gottingen-septuagint

In addition to what others have suggested it may also come down to unsuccessful negotiations with publishers to include this in a base package at a significantly reduce price.

I dont know specifically about these two resources but some other resources have at times been included in a previous base packages but then removed from the current base package in order to refresh the range of titles on offer to make them of interest to owners previous base packages. Without fresh titles existing customers will not buy the  base packages because they will already own everything of significance from the previous base packages and so Faithlife gets no sales.

You are correct these titles could be included in the base packages but for whatever reason, maybe on of the things suggested or maybe another reason Faithlife have not included them.

Posts 32
KJB1611 | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 20 2016 5:48 AM

It may very well be that some users will not use the standard critical editions of the Vulgate and LXX, but by not including them at any level Logos is saying that their Orthodox and Verbum packages are not at all geared towards scholars.  These are texts that these traditions think are inspired or at least authoritative, yet they are absent from even the highest level of base package.  That simply does not make sense.  Imagine if the standard editions of the Greek NT and Hebrew OT were not in any base package at all because only some people will use them while others will not.

Thanks. 

Posts 291
Hapax Legomena | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 20 2016 8:08 AM

Not "base" packages but maybe top-level packages.  An awareness of textual variants is important for scholars but of not much interest to base-level customers.  But it is important to be aware of resources which are missing.  I suspect , in assembling the various packages, publisher agreements on discounts are very important.  We've seen that the scholarly publishers are not too keen on big discounts.

Posts 3524
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 15 2017 11:25 AM

KJB1611:
It may very well be that some users will not use the standard critical editions of the Vulgate and LXX, but by not including them at any level Logos is saying that their Orthodox and Verbum packages are not at all geared towards scholars.

It is quite possible to be a well-published professional theologian in the Catholic Church and to have no need whatsoever for the resources you are advocating for. Ever. And so leaving them out does not convey to Catholics the message that you suggest it does.

KJB1611:
Imagine if the standard editions of the Greek NT and Hebrew OT were not in any base package at all because only some people will use them while others will not.

See above.

Posts 32
KJB1611 | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 15 2017 11:32 AM

So "well-published, professional theologians in the Catholic Church have no need whatsoever," and and can not "ever," use the standard critical edition of the Latin Vulgate, despite the Catholic Church's teaching about the place of the Latin Vulgate, and, at least if they are engaged in any kind of Biblical research, can totally ignore the standard critical edition of the LXX--they can never use these in their entire lives, because they have no need of them?

Is this a serious comment?

Posts 3169
LogosEmployee
Thomas Ball | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 15 2017 11:37 AM

I'm moving this thread to the Suggestions section of the forums. Thank you for everyone's input on this topic!

 

Posts 32
KJB1611 | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 15 2017 11:50 AM

Dear Mr. Ball,

Thanks for the move.

By the way, Accordance Bible software includes the critical edition of the Vulgate, along with the traditional Clementine Vulgate, in its Latin package.  (It does not have a package designed for Greek orthodox people, but its Greek and Hebrew master packages include the Gottingen LXX at a reasonable price).

Also, I rather suspect that a peek at the bibliography in a scholarly Catholic commentary such as some in the Anchor Bible series would result in a rather different conclusion than that of the above comment about the alleged entire absence of any necessity for the standard critical editions of LXX and Vulgate for Catholic scholars.

Thanks.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 17 2017 1:46 AM

KJB1611:
Is this a serious comment?

Is this non sequitur a serious comment? Some, not all, well-published professional theologians have no need of the Vulgate standard critical edition. The question is why? The Catholic and Orthodox traditions are less concerned with the recreation of the original text because they read the text with (a) confidence that Tradition has preserved a truthful edition (b) that reception history provides a template for how Tradition has interpreted the scripture and (c) that the message is more important than the precise text and grammar. I would suggest that you read an Orthodox or Catholic book on the interpretation of scripture to understand why these texts are useful but required only for people with particular interests and skills. Put another way, Catholics and Orthodox are more willing to trust their scholars and not repeat the effort of elements they can easily look up ... unless, of course, it applies to an area where you are in fact the leading scholar ... then you question everything.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 2564
David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 17 2017 5:43 AM

MJ. Smith:

(c) that the message is more important than the precise text and grammar.

I would suggest that you read an Orthodox or Catholic book on the interpretation of scripture to understand why these texts are useful but required only for people with particular interests and skills.  

Any particular suggested texts??  And Yes, the (overall) message is the most important part of Scritpure.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 17 2017 11:53 AM
  • Scripture in Tradition: The Bible and Its Interpretation in the Orthodox Church by John Breck
  • Catholic Principles for interpreting Scripture: A Study of the Pontifical Commission's The interpretation of the Bible in the Church (Subsidia Biblica) by Peter S Williamson and Albert Vanhoye
  • Scripture in the Tradition (Milestones in Catholic Theology) by Henri de Lubac and Peter Casarella

These are the ones that come to my mind first - others may have a different list.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 5315
DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 17 2017 2:02 PM

KJB1611:

Logos has left out two essential resources from its Orthodox and Catholic base packages.

The Gottingen Septuagint:

https://www.logos.com/product/4951/gottingen-septuagint

Another point ton consider in regards to the Orthodox base packages is that they currently only go up to Gold level.  I would not expect to find a resource like Gottingen Septuagint in a Gold level or less base package. It could well be a candidate for inclusion in a Portfolio level Orthodox Base package in the future.

Posts 979
Deacon Steve | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 17 2017 3:19 PM

Adding my comments to this topic - not responding to any other specific comments above.

Looking at the current listing of resources in the following, existing categories it seems we have room for some resources suggested by the OP at the highest base package levels:

     - Greek Grammars, Lexicons, and Tools

     - Septuagint

     - Latin Grammars, Lexicons, and Tools

Posts 3524
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 17 2017 3:35 PM

KJB1611:

So "well-published, professional theologians in the Catholic Church have no need whatsoever," and and can not "ever," use the standard critical edition of the Latin Vulgate, despite the Catholic Church's teaching about the place of the Latin Vulgate, and, at least if they are engaged in any kind of Biblical research, can totally ignore the standard critical edition of the LXX--they can never use these in their entire lives, because they have no need of them?

Is this a serious comment?

Yes, and yes, respectively.

Posts 1
Heather Ross | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 17 2017 3:57 PM

By the way, I would also love to see Lampe's Patristic Greek Lexicon in a base package--or at least somewhere--it isn't even for sale.

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