Counterpoints Software Sale: $7 Apiece at Olive Tree and Accordance

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LogosEmployee

I definitely understand all your frustrations. We are looking at the pre-pub program right now. I'm not giving any projections of when things might change.

Yes, we've definitely not always done a good job at keeping things above pre-pub price. We've probably not aways done the best job of communicating clear expectations. We've probably not always been terribly consistent. I'm sorry for that. A major goal of our re-evaluation of the pre-pub program is to set out clear parameters, communicate them clearly with customers, and maintain consistency in how we execute the program.

However, the best place to start that consistency is by consistently holding to our current policy until we intentionally role out a different one.

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Jan Krohn | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 9 2016 9:42 AM

Just a thought: Might it be possible that we customers prefered flexibility over consistency? Confused

Past IT Consultant. Past Mission Worker. Entrepreneur. Future Seminary Student.
Why Amazon sucks: Full background story of my legal dispute with the online giant

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Mattillo | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 9 2016 10:03 AM

Ben Amundgaard:

I definitely understand all your frustrations. We are looking at the pre-pub program right now. I'm not giving any projections of when things might change.

Yes, we've definitely not always done a good job at keeping things above pre-pub price. We've probably not aways done the best job of communicating clear expectations. We've probably not always been terribly consistent. I'm sorry for that. A major goal of our re-evaluation of the pre-pub program is to set out clear parameters, communicate them clearly with customers, and maintain consistency in how we execute the program.

However, the best place to start that consistency is by consistently holding to our current policy until we intentionally role out a different one.

This is understandable but my worries are how long will it take to review this policy (besides the policy not being very good <- seems to be a majority opinion in this listing at least).  With the holidays coming, how many more deals will your customers miss out on while you review this?

Posts 510
Richard Villanueva | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 9 2016 10:07 AM

Jan Krohn:
Might it be possible that we customers prefered flexibility over consistency?

I would think so, but the problem I see (especially on the forums here) is that people will prefer the one that benefits them the most at the current time.  

I'm sure that once FL makes changes in their PrePub vs Sales Price come the new year, a group of people may not be happy.  I would even expect if the current standards are changed, there may be a segment of voices asking for a retro-active application of "lost sales dollars" because it's "not a fair practice."

But I may be a little pessimistic this morning or maybe I've added too much FanBoy KoolAid in my morning drink. *weak attempt at humor*  I'll ask for forgiveness if I sound that way. Big Smile

MBPro'12 / i5 / 8GB // 3.0 Scholars (Purple) / L6 & L7 Platinum, M&E Platinum, Anglican Bronze, P&C Silver / L8 Platinum, Academic Pro

Posts 81
Kevin Wang | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 9 2016 11:22 AM

Mark me down as another customer who is frustrated and unconvinced as to why Logos would keep these deals from its customers, especially Zondervan deals. 

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PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 9 2016 11:32 AM

Ben Amundgaard:

Yes, we've definitely not always done a good job at keeping things above pre-pub price. ... We've probably not always been terribly consistent. I'm sorry for that.

I think part of the problem is that FL envisions the concept of keeping things above pre-pub price as a good job.

I doubt anyone would say that it's great that FL consistently does a "good job" by never offering items on sale, should a publisher come out with a better deal than FL had offered in the past.

Holding on to a bad policy until you eventually come up with a different one, solely for the sake of "consistency" is flawed. Just please drop the policy if it's bad, instead of perpetuating it and frustrating customers in the meantime.

Mike Pettit:

This ignores the elephant in the room in that stuff goes on prepub then is included in base packages at a fraction of that price.

For this reason I have pretty much stopped buying on pre pub, as I would have saved a fortune if I had just waited for a base package incuded such items.

This is in my view why the pricing model is flawed from a customers perspective.

Yes x100. As a recent new customer -- bought L6 in May --I've discovered that FL has to redo packages every major version to get people to buy the latest libraries and topical bundles. I expect to save a great deal more when pre-pubs are bundled. I don't know what it was like in the past, but L7 included a fair number of pre-pubs.

It's odd that FL quibbles about not putting a single item on sale if it's below pre-pub, when we'd all desire that more items were bundled, rather than paying a premium to buy items one-by-one, even at pre-pub. But FL makes more profit from per-item sales, which is probably the reason for the pricing model and bottom line.

Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!

Posts 2688
Jan Krohn | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 9 2016 9:01 PM

Richard Villanueva:
I would think so, but the problem I see (especially on the forums here) is that people will prefer the one that benefits them the most at the current time.

This has been discussed in length before:

https://community.logos.com/forums/t/128219.aspx

If every customer would get every product at the best-price-ever, all companies would be out of business now, without exception.

Anyone who is uncomfortable with free market economy could just emigrate to Cuba or other communist/socialist countries, and avoid henceforth all issues related to feeling unfairly treated by restrictions of sales, promotions and special deals...

Past IT Consultant. Past Mission Worker. Entrepreneur. Future Seminary Student.
Why Amazon sucks: Full background story of my legal dispute with the online giant

Posts 1102
Tom Reynolds | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 9 2016 10:33 PM

Ben Amundgaard:

However, the best place to start that consistency is by consistently holding to our current policy until we intentionally role out a different one.

So no more free book of the month because that's definitely below prepub price.Devil

Posts 2137
Joseph Turner | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 10 2016 4:40 AM

This seems like selective participation in sales by Logos to me.  The Zondervan Biblical Languages Collection went on sale for $308.33 in December of 2015, and it was on pre-pub for $474.95.  I did say something back then to bring it to the attention of Logos, and nothing was ever said, but now suddenly Logos wants to stick to the pre-pub/lowest price?  It makes it sound like Logos just doesn't want to participate in the sale.

Disclaimer:  I hate using messaging, texting, and email for real communication.  If anything that I type to you seems like anything other than humble and respectful, then I have not done a good job typing my thoughts.

Posts 1586
John Kight | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 10 2016 4:43 AM

Joseph Turner:
It makes it sound like Logos just doesn't want to participate in the sale

I was thinking the same thing reading this thread. 

For book reviews and more visit sojotheo.com 

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PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 10 2016 7:39 AM

Joseph Turner:

This seems like selective participation in sales by Logos to me.  The Zondervan Biblical Languages Collection went on sale for $308.33 in December of 2015, and it was on pre-pub for $474.95.  I did say something back then to bring it to the attention of Logos, and nothing was ever said, but now suddenly Logos wants to stick to the pre-pub/lowest price?  It makes it sound like Logos just doesn't want to participate in the sale.

I was under the impression that Logos needed to negotiate better contracts with the publishers to be allowed to offer sales, but now I'm thinking that the publishers need to put pressure on Logos to pass along all the sales that the publisher offers.

The notion that FL plans to stop all these sales that inadvertently took place in the past is... shocking... and I'm left to consider whether I should cut my losses and run from this troubling investment.

Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!

Posts 1079
William Gabriel | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 10 2016 8:25 AM

Ben Amundgaard:

I definitely understand all your frustrations. We are looking at the pre-pub program right now. I'm not giving any projections of when things might change.

Yes, we've definitely not always done a good job at keeping things above pre-pub price. We've probably not aways done the best job of communicating clear expectations. We've probably not always been terribly consistent. I'm sorry for that. A major goal of our re-evaluation of the pre-pub program is to set out clear parameters, communicate them clearly with customers, and maintain consistency in how we execute the program.

However, the best place to start that consistency is by consistently holding to our current policy until we intentionally role out a different one.

This policy might be acceptable if the pre-pub prices were steals. And once upon a time, they were. But lately I skip out on pre-pubs because the price is so close to retail that it's not worth it. I'd rather spend the extra $5 and control when the money goes than save it and have the resource come through with another $1000 of pre-pubs. 

I'd say, don't get hung up on your pre-pub price and policy--it isn't that great.

Posts 51
Bob | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 10 2016 8:58 AM

Ben Amundgaard:

I definitely understand all your frustrations. We are looking at the pre-pub program right now.

Thanks Ben for the transparency, even in the face of complaints. Obviously, there are always trade-offs to consider, including consistent pricing policies, impact on profit and customer purchasing behaviors, impact on publisher licensing negotiations, etc. In general, I think that we all understand that pricing is a lot more complicated than it seems on the surface, and the details of pricing policy will continue to evolve. But on the surface, it sure looks like customers are better off by getting a low price on the Counterpoint deals.

While I'm new to the Logos/Faithlife "family", Logos does appear to be a leader in Bible software resource pricing models, and that they are diligent about providing additional value with tagging and indexing. Logos also appears to consistently ensure there are opportunities for customers to get some really good deals, even if they already have a significant investment in their library. For example, I like the way we can do incremental package purchases at great price after we establish a personal resource library.

I sure hope that "Do what's best for the customer" will always remain the dominant driver and top priority for decisions like this one. People appreciate that.

 

Posts 1228
Sean | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 10 2016 8:59 AM

William Gabriel:

Ben Amundgaard:

I definitely understand all your frustrations. We are looking at the pre-pub program right now. I'm not giving any projections of when things might change.

Yes, we've definitely not always done a good job at keeping things above pre-pub price. We've probably not aways done the best job of communicating clear expectations. We've probably not always been terribly consistent. I'm sorry for that. A major goal of our re-evaluation of the pre-pub program is to set out clear parameters, communicate them clearly with customers, and maintain consistency in how we execute the program.

However, the best place to start that consistency is by consistently holding to our current policy until we intentionally role out a different one.

This policy might be acceptable if the pre-pub prices were steals. And once upon a time, they were. But lately I skip out on pre-pubs because the price is so close to retail that it's not worth it. I'd rather spend the extra $5 and control when the money goes than save it and have the resource come through with another $1000 of pre-pubs. 

I'd say, don't get hung up on your pre-pub price and policy--it isn't that great.

This.

I stopped paying attention to prepubs several months ago when I learned that they (a) they had no guarantee of ever coming out of pre-pub and (b) when I kept getting mails "Get in early to buy these two books, normally $74.95, at the great sale price of $67.75." And that's supposed to be the best price those books will ever be sold at (unless they're in a base package, of course)?

That seems an unwise course to lock your company into. Ben, I'd recall what Emerson said about consistency.

Posts 1518
Rick Ausdahl | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 10 2016 9:49 AM

I wasn't planning to weigh-in on this because I don't know for sure that I would have participated in this particular sale even if it had been offered.  But it's much bigger than any one particular sales event so I'll share a couple of thoughts as feedback for Faithlife.

  1. I think it's simply a bad business practice to say any price is the lowest price an item will ever be sold for.  If the regular price and the sale price are both provided, the customer can figure out if the sale price is a modest, significant, or incredible deal.
  2. I don't recall ever reading before that pre-pub prices are the lowest prices items will ever sell for, so that concept was completely off my radar screen.  But if that has been the stated Faithlife polcy, I would encourage Faithlife to change it.  I also have to agree with others who have indicated they have been underwhelmed by pre-pub pricing, and because (in my opinion) the price reductions are so minimal, I have never been motivated by them to buy a resource I wouldn't have bought at the regular price.
  3. From my perspective as a customer, I don't ever want Faithlife to withhold a sale offered by a publisher.  If the sale is within 30 days of my purchase, Faithlife already provides a means for me to get the sale price.  If it's beyond the 30 days, then sure I'd be disappointed--maybe even upset-- and if it was a really great sale and only a few days beyond the standard 30 since my purchase, I might check with Faithlife just to see if they would be so gracious as to still give me the sale price.  But unless Faithlife had convinced me to buy it because it would never sell for less, I have no reason to be upset with Faithlife just because I bought it at a higher price.
Posts 932
Justin Gatlin | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 10 2016 10:30 AM

Consistency is not even Faithlife's usual policy, right? I always took the licensing thing to be a statement of a general company value. 

Bob Pritchett:

https://community.logos.com/forums/p/50184/380033.aspx

I hate policies. Policies are straight-jackets that prevent organizations from doing the right thing for individuals. Policies force organizations to treat individuals as a single, adversarial entity, rather than as people with special needs and concerns. Policies empower front-line staff to avoid listening and to shirk the responsibility of making decisions.

We try to have as few policies as possible.

 

Posts 1358
Edwin Bowden | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 10 2016 11:37 AM

Rick Ausdahl:

I wasn't planning to weigh-in on this because I don't know for sure that I would have participated in this particular sale even if it had been offered.  But it's much bigger than any one particular sales event so I'll share a couple of thoughts as feedback for Faithlife.

  1. I think it's simply a bad business practice to say any price is the lowest price an item will ever be sold for.  If the regular price and the sale price are both provided, the customer can figure out if the sale price is a modest, significant, or incredible deal.
  2. I don't recall ever reading before that pre-pub prices are the lowest prices items will ever sell for, so that concept was completely off my radar screen.  But if that has been the stated Faithlife polcy, I would encourage Faithlife to change it.  I also have to agree with others who have indicated they have been underwhelmed by pre-pub pricing, and because (in my opinion) the price reductions are so minimal, I have never been motivated by them to buy a resource I wouldn't have bought at the regular price.
  3. From my perspective as a customer, I don't ever want Faithlife to withhold a sale offered by a publisher.  If the sale is within 30 days of my purchase, Faithlife already provides a means for me to get the sale price.  If it's beyond the 30 days, then sure I'd be disappointed--maybe even upset-- and if it was a really great sale and only a few days beyond the standard 30 since my purchase, I might check with Faithlife just to see if they would be so gracious as to still give me the sale price.  But unless Faithlife had convinced me to buy it because it would never sell for less, I have no reason to be upset with Faithlife just because I bought it at a higher price.

Yes

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Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 10 2016 1:49 PM

Something is being overlooked in the discussion of pre-pub pricing and the guarantee of lowest price.

The pre-pub price is not a pre-release sale price. It is a price FL sets to see if they can gather enough commitments to make producing the product financially worthwhile. When they do, it is produced. When they don't, it isn't.

This makes those who opt-in to the pre-pub partners with FL in producing the resource (FL has even used language like this in the past to describe the pre-pub program). To reward that partnership, and to provide motivation to become a partner, FL has, in the past, given a low price guarantee.

As an active participant in many past pre-pubs I would not be happy to see a greatly reduced price given after the resource is produced, unless the terms are changed. I would probably still participate in pre-pubs if my price was the best offered for some period of time after the item was released. Two years would probably be the minimum I'd find acceptable.

FL can kill or do harm to the pre-pub program if they are not careful. They know that. That would hurt all of us. They need to continue to reward those who support the program so that financially feasible products can continue to be produced. That benefits the Logos ecosystem whether we were around when the 'good' price was available or not.

Pastor, North Park Baptist Church

Bridgeport, CT USA

Posts 4286
Mattillo | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 10 2016 1:57 PM

I agree with most of what you are saying Mark if the pricing and sales applies to Logos discounting a product on their own.  BUT if a publisher chooses to put a product on sale on their own I feel logos should offer that sale to its customers on the thought that it isn't them offering the discount but the publisher.  You also have to factor in new customers.  I didn't start using Logos until mid-cycle of Logos 6.  Are you saying that all new customers should lose out on great deals for 2 years because you saved 15% on a product?

Posts 689
James McAdams | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 10 2016 2:10 PM

Mark Smith:

Something is being overlooked in the discussion of pre-pub pricing and the guarantee of lowest price.

The pre-pub price is not a pre-release sale price. It is a price FL sets to see if they can gather enough commitments to make producing the product financially worthwhile. When they do, it is produced. When they don't, it isn't.

This makes those who opt-in to the pre-pub partners with FL in producing the resource (FL has even used language like this in the past to describe the pre-pub program). To reward that partnership, and to provide motivation to become a partner, FL has, in the past, given a low price guarantee.

As an active participant in many past pre-pubs I would not be happy to see a greatly reduced price given after the resource is produced, unless the terms are changed. I would probably still participate in pre-pubs if my price was the best offered for some period of time after the item was released. Two years would probably be the minimum I'd find acceptable.

FL can kill or do harm to the pre-pub program if they are not careful. They know that. That would hurt all of us. They need to continue to reward those who support the program so that financially feasible products can continue to be produced. That benefits the Logos ecosystem whether we were around when the 'good' price was available or not.

I'm far less likely to back pre-pubs now that I know this is the practice. It seems petty and unpleasant to me to say that a sale which the publisher is endorsing and other companies are providing must be withheld from Logos customers because they worry about upsetting backers - I don't want to be a backer if that's what they think of us. I buy books to learn and hopefully spread truth. I buy prepubs to help get books produced toward that end. I don't want my purchase to be used as a motive to prevent the greater spread of it.

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