Counterpoints Software Sale: $7 Apiece at Olive Tree and Accordance

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This post has 110 Replies | 4 Followers

Posts 943
Everett Headley | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 10 2016 2:19 PM

I feel as though this is one of many times that Logos simply does not hear their customers. 

Posts 60
Alan | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 10 2016 3:15 PM

I am not sure how it would work accounting wise, but what if one the "benefits" of ordering on prepub was that for a certain period of time after purchase (maybe a year or two) if the product was to go on a publisher sale, prepub purchasers would be able to get a logos credit for the difference in price.

That would encourage prepub buyers (it makes no difference how low the publishers price is if it is not offered in Logos to begin with) and still allow for publisher sales.

The benefit of prepub would then be locking in the lowest price for a longer period of time.   That makes the "low price guarantee" not that the resource will never have a lower price, but that prepub purchasers can always get it at the lowest price.

Granted there might be issue with Logos losing money with a greatly reduced price, but that could possibly be offset with the larger number of buyers participating in a publisher sale.

I know this is not really a new idea.  Just pulling some different pieces together in my own thinking.

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PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 10 2016 3:19 PM

Mark Smith:

FL can kill or do harm to the pre-pub program if they are not careful.

And FL can do harm to their customer base by not passing on publisher sales.

I'd rather cut off my hand and not do any business with FL, than take part in a dishonorable partnership that would show partiality to us, yet restrict others from some future sale.

Mark Smith:

They need to continue to reward those who support the program so that financially feasible products can continue to be produced.

As for a reward, it's that the product was produced. If some further "reward" is that no one else will pay less than you or I (for 2 years), then why should our eyes be on what someone else pays, rather then the product itself that everyone should benefit from?

I don't go around thinking, "Oh, I partnered with FL on that pre-pub and now they sold it to someone else for less than what I paid to help produce it. I'll never partner with them again." Can't we simply give thanks, in all circumstances, instead of being envious, jealous, or resentful that someone else might get a better deal than us, down the road?

Posts 898
Justin Gatlin | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 10 2016 3:20 PM

Alan:

I am not sure how it would work accounting wise, but what if one the "benefits" of ordering on prepub was that for a certain period of time after purchase (maybe a year or two) if the product was to go on a publisher sale, prepub purchasers would be able to get a logos credit for the difference in price.

That would encourage prepub buyers (it makes no difference how low the publishers price is if it is not offered in Logos to begin with) and still allow for publisher sales.

The benefit of prepub would then be locking in the lowest price for a longer period of time.   That makes the "low price guarantee" not that the resource will never have a lower price, but that prepub purchasers can always get it at the lowest price.

Granted there might be issue with Logos losing money with a greatly reduced price, but that could possibly be offset with the larger number of buyers participating in a publisher sale.

I know this is not really a new idea.  Just pulling some different pieces together in my own thinking.

I like this idea a lot. If you make it two years, you balance it by requiring people to e-mail in their order number for the credit, instead of giving it automatically. That probably reduces the hit considerably.

Posts 1049
William Gabriel | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 10 2016 3:29 PM

PetahChristian:

Mark Smith:

They need to continue to reward those who support the program so that financially feasible products can continue to be produced.

Do you think that the pre-pub program would be harmed, if FL did what is pleasing to God?

I'd encourage you to be careful ascribing a particular action here as the one that's pleasing to God. FL is attempting to honor their word to pre-pub customers. Lying would definitely not be pleasing to God, and while you and I would prefer a different pre-pub policy, there isn't a single right one.

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PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 10 2016 3:36 PM

William Gabriel:

I'd encourage you to be careful ascribing a particular action here as the one that's pleasing to God. FL is attempting to honor their word to pre-pub customers. Lying would definitely not be pleasing to God, and while you and I would prefer a different pre-pub policy, there isn't a single right one.

Thank you for that correction. I've edited my post.

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Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 10 2016 4:12 PM

PetahChristian:
Can't we simply give thanks, in all circumstances, instead of being envious, jealous, or resentful that someone else might get a better deal than us, down the road?

I hope that you are not ascribing any of those negative feelings to me.

Pastor, North Park Baptist Church

Bridgeport, CT USA

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 10 2016 5:30 PM

Mark Smith:
As an active participant in many past pre-pubs I would not be happy to see a greatly reduced price given after the resource is produced, unless the terms are changed. I would probably still participate in pre-pubs if my price was the best offered for some period of time after the item was released. Two years would probably be the minimum I'd find acceptable.

Pardon me, but this seems a rather selfish attitude. I want to be rewarded for "partnering with Fl," and I will resent anyone else getting a good price. If that is not what you meant—it is still how it reads.

Posts 1022
Keith Pang | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 10 2016 5:40 PM

Mark...that is selfish of you for not wanting others to get a good deal

Shalom, in Christ, Keith. Check out my music www.soundcloud.com/kpang808

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PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 10 2016 6:03 PM

Mark Smith:

I hope that you are not ascribing any of those negative feelings to me.

No, I am not. I respect you, Mark.

If we need some long-term guarantee or "reward" to protect us from potentially thinking worse about a purchase, solely based on the risk of a sale in the future, then we are unnaturally complicating things by injecting rationalization and cognitive bias into the system to protect our sense of having made a good purchase.

I believe that each transaction is actually independent from any other transaction, and should be solely based on its own merit. I can't envision why the system should be harmed or die, given some nebulous chance that we might stop feeling good about a purchase, start feeling bad about it, and then project that feeling on future transactions.

Perhaps I'm overly simplistic in my view of pre-pub, but it doesn't seem to be any different from any other type of transaction I may want to make. If I want the item, and the item is offered at a good price, then I'm going buy it. If someone else pays less down the road, am I going to suddenly change my mind and decide that it wasn't a good price at the time?

I think we are better served by removing any notion that either

  • we want to be rewarded for a simple transaction (e.g., reinforcement that we made a good decision), or
  • someone else is to blame for a decision we made (e.g., the publisher offered a sale, FL lowered the price)

I'd just like to see us not being susceptible to any secular philosophy, especially when the resources we buy could spiritually benefit us all as believers.

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Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 10 2016 7:13 PM

Jack Caviness:
Pardon me, but this seems a rather selfish attitude.

My friend, Jack, I am amazed at you and others attributing selfishness so quickly.

I didn't say I wanted to be rewarded for partnering with FL, that was what FL said. I participated with that as the understanding. That meant making sacrifices in order to save money in the long run.

Now, I (and all others who participated) was given assurance that by participating in a pre-pub that I would be getting the best price ever. I fail to see how it is selfish to expect that that will in fact be the case. Since it was a promise, I would be unhappy with FL breaking their promise, at least, as I mentioned, soon after a pre-pub was released, no matter what the reason was.

I do want FL to hold to the spirit of their promises made in the past. As I said, I am willing to let FL have some wiggle room with past promises.

I understand the desire for sale prices when publishers offer them. Somehow FL needs to address this, but they must be careful that they can maintain the pre-pub program in the future. (As far as I am concerned they can assert NO price promise in the future if they want. I will be free to choose to participate or not at that point.)

Pastor, North Park Baptist Church

Bridgeport, CT USA

Posts 2062
GaoLu | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 10 2016 7:30 PM

I wonder if in every case Pre-pub would be better replaced with Community Pricing--and overall get better results.  That would solve the problem.

Posts 898
Justin Gatlin | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 10 2016 7:48 PM

Mark Smith:
I understand the desire for sale prices when publishers offer them. Somehow FL needs to address this, but they must be careful that they can maintain the pre-pub program in the future. (As far as I am concerned they can assert NO price promise in the future if they want. I will be free to choose to participate or not at that point.)

The price promise has not been on the marketing since 2010, based on Rosie's comments here (but see here). I remember it going away, but can't remember when. They ultimately decided to offer a lower price than pre-pub here last March. 

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Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 10 2016 8:08 PM

Justin Gatlin:
The price promise has not been on the marketing since 2010, based on Rosie's comments here (but see here). I remember it going away, but can't remember when. They ultimately decided to offer a lower price than pre-pub here last March. 

I know that FL made an exception earlier this year. I was in on the thread where Rosie made her observation. However, as Ben's comments indicate, FL clearly hasn't yet adopted a new policy and is still functioning largely as if the promise is in place. The Counterpoints series is of no concern to me as I did not get in on the pre-pub, but I understand if FL chooses not to offer it for the reasons they have stated.

Pastor, North Park Baptist Church

Bridgeport, CT USA

Posts 666
James McAdams | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 11 2016 2:00 AM

It blows my mind that anyone would think it was a good idea to make the promise. Expecting a company to honour their promise is fine, but the promise itself seems abhorrent to me.

It obviously means that there's another warning to throw out before I can recommend the app, it drastically changes my attitude to supporting prepubs (I can't work out how to justify them now - I thought I was helping people get books by making them available, but it turns out I'm helping to make them less obtainable), it makes me far more likely to invest in Accordance or Olive Tree instead of Logos and it just infuriates me.

Posts 6422
DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 11 2016 3:07 AM

 I'm sure glad I did not place a pre-pub for the Bible knowledge background commentary since it was included in a starter base package at a way cheaper price even though it just released a few months back HAHAHA (Hysterical laugh lol). There, I just finished killing the flawed honor system for the prepub program. It's time for a change the sooner the better! 

DAL

Ps. One last stump on the head of the prepub honor system just for good measure: I'm glad I did not place a prepub order for the Bob Utley's commentaries in Spanish because a few days later they were included in my L7 Spanish Base Package upgrade along with other cool recent prepubs!

Note: I will continue to use the prepub system/program if I need something, but please, do away with this senseless straight jacket policy that as you can see is not providing a positive vibe.

Thank you!

R.I.P. Prepub honor policy, you just got mauled and devoured by a flawless execution! 

Wow, we all should've been actors, we sure can bring a lot of drama to the scene hehehe 😜😁👌👍🤘

Posts 120
DBR | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 11 2016 5:31 AM

After Logos 7 came out, I have been disappointed by how many pre-pub and community pricing books I got were included in base packages. If I had known, I would not have bought. I have canceled many pre-pubs and community pricing products recently because of this. 

I remember a thread about the companion to the Septuagint that was steal compared to other places, and here it is, less than a year later in Lutheran Silver for next to nothing.

https://community.logos.com/forums/p/125553/818389.aspx#818389

That being said, I am much more upset with Logos for an extremely inconsistent policy and withholding publisher sales out of a sense of duty discounting other products at will with no explanation. 

If I buy a pre-pub, it is because I wanted the book ASAP and I will willing to pay the price. Logos makes its money when people need a book and pay full price for it. I prefer sales, but sometimes I pay the price for something I really need. I have no regrets.A six month window for pre-pubs is acceptable to me, but no more. If you do more than a year, you might as well never have sales on anything. 

Just my two cents.

Posts 10178
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 11 2016 6:55 AM

I suspect a conspiracy.  But have no facts, so no problem.  Prepubs are caught between a rock and hardplace. 

If the PP price is low ( and unlikely to ever be lower), then the PP sits forever in a state of PP-shock. Unless really popular ... low-hanging fruit.

If the PP price is higher (but still advantageous), the PP has a chance to escape PP-land.  But run headlong into later sales.

Finally, PP's are generally royalty-based, insuring not a whole lot of maneuvering room.

And lastly (after finally), there's the curiousity of why many resources escape PP-land entirely. There's a get-out-of-jail-card somewhere in play.

-

I accidentally left out the other curiousity, where CP and PP fail to deliver 'the goods' for upcoming packages. So, the whole thing gets thrown under the bus, in favor of something to sell.


Posts 898
Justin Gatlin | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 11 2016 10:08 AM

Mark Smith:

Justin Gatlin:
The price promise has not been on the marketing since 2010, based on Rosie's comments here (but see here). I remember it going away, but can't remember when. They ultimately decided to offer a lower price than pre-pub here last March. 

I know that FL made an exception earlier this year. I was in on the thread where Rosie made her observation. However, as Ben's comments indicate, FL clearly hasn't yet adopted a new policy and is still functioning largely as if the promise is in place. The Counterpoints series is of no concern to me as I did not get in on the pre-pub, but I understand if FL chooses not to offer it for the reasons they have stated.

I just mean that it is misleading to say they are keeping a promise, which has never been made for some of the resources in question, because it hasn't been actually made in six years. 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 11 2016 1:31 PM

Phil Gons (Faithlife):
1 Corinthians was excluded on purpose. It recently shipped off Pre-Pub, and we do our best to protect the value of the Pre-Pub program.

Phil Gons (Faithlife):

Thanks for all your feedback. For those of you who purchased the whole set and are concerned, you can rest assured that we intend to protect the value of your purchase. We are experimenting with offering individual volumes as a tool to get people into the whole set (and we're open to reevaluating that decision). However, individual volumes will be priced much higher. So buying the set on Pre-Pub will still have been the best value for getting this set.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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