Bob Pritchett: Rob Suggs: It's possible that, as you say, those not willing to pay $200 or so for Bible software "just aren't that interested" (Seriously, the Home package with its few resources isn't a fair measuring stick; it's like a 1-gig iPod). I'm still listening... but I'm worried it's a bit like saying "Ruth's Chris Steakhouse is so much better than the steak at Joe's Diner. And I know people who like steak, but aren't as passionate as I am. And so they won't spring $80 for Ruth's Chris. But maybe if there was a $9 lunch special, they'd come in, and more people could eat there." You can sell a smaller steak, but you can't get to $9 without dropping quality, firing the expensive waitstaff, changing to paper napkins, etc.
Rob Suggs: It's possible that, as you say, those not willing to pay $200 or so for Bible software "just aren't that interested" (Seriously, the Home package with its few resources isn't a fair measuring stick; it's like a 1-gig iPod).
It's possible that, as you say, those not willing to pay $200 or so for Bible software "just aren't that interested" (Seriously, the Home package with its few resources isn't a fair measuring stick; it's like a 1-gig iPod).
I'm still listening... but I'm worried it's a bit like saying "Ruth's Chris Steakhouse is so much better than the steak at Joe's Diner. And I know people who like steak, but aren't as passionate as I am. And so they won't spring $80 for Ruth's Chris. But maybe if there was a $9 lunch special, they'd come in, and more people could eat there."
You can sell a smaller steak, but you can't get to $9 without dropping quality, firing the expensive waitstaff, changing to paper napkins, etc.
To tell the truth, I had one of the best steaks in my life at Joe's, it was the 12 ounce, $7.95 special.
But more to the point, I think that the eBible demo model works great, like I said earlier, it's how I started. And I've been very happy purchasing my way up the chain. Also the way your expensive waitstaff folds the silk napkins is one of the main reasons I continue to do so.
"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."
Bob Pritchett:There are some very nice low cost Bible software programs out there, and I know they have a lot of users. But I also konw that they don't generate very much revenue at all, and many are staffed by one person. This is a valuable service to the church, but doesn't support the level and quantity of software development and book production that we do.
In my opinion one of the big hurdles is to get people to understand how computer assisted Bible study can be beneficial to them. For those that use their Bible programmes on a regular basis, they quickly find that they want more than a free or low cost programme can provide, therefore Logos among other higher end commercial candidates, becomes attractive.
Aside from it's useability, Logos is becoming such a standard for so many resources. When looking at the top list of bestcommentaries.com it is cool to see that most of the resources there are available in Libronix format. So when I talk to people about Bible software, one of the things I emphasize is that this is software that will grow with you, whether you are a casual user or an academic.
So how do we get people going in the first place? One possibility would be to have a free version of software called 'Free Logos' with public domain resources that has no support, similar to the model that AVG or Zonealarm uses. The package could have a very simplified website even for adding some basic resources like their favourite Bible version. When people are ready to 'graduate' from Logos express, the upgrade pathway would be to buy one of the other libraries currently on offer.
However, I have no clue or experience how this would work in a business plan. If Logos could pull this off, it would mean that not only Logos has one of the biggest bases of resources to grow with you, but it is on more computers than any other software product of its kind. It is conceivable with a clear upgrade path that a percentage of these users would become paying customers.
I have also wonder if PBB is something that could be promoted more for the development of materials? If this FreeLogos became the 'defacto standard' of reading Christian materials like the way Adobe Acrobat is, this would also create further market base to convert to paying customers.
Anyhow, just a few random thoughts to consider. Logos is doing a lot of the right stuff and I am so pleased to see it as the forerunner to getting so many materials that we need in electronic format on our computers.
I asked my younger son, who is a youth leader. "So how much would young people pay for a starter edition of the best BIble software?" He said without any hesitation: "it have to be free". Young people go for free things and only if they really like it and want more of it, they are willing to pay." Well, I don't know if that is the same for the american young people, but it makes me think. I would offer free Logos Starter Edition with one modern translation (ESV?) plus some public domain stuff. It would be ideal if there can be one Study Bible (ESVSB ) It would be the breaking ground thing, I believe.
Now, when you buy ESV Study Bible on paper, you get an activation key to get the web based version. What if you would get also an activation key to the Logos Starter with ESVSB? Just a thought, may be naive, I know.
Bohuslav
I must say that I was going to give one of the Nelson products to a friend who had nothing but I was embarassed as George said about Logos, the Nelson products such as deluxe, expanded, etc had much "filler" in them; not a whole lot for good study...honestly Vines???
I looked at the lowest Logos package and even though it was bare bones, it was way ahead of the Nelson packages.
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
And another thing
In the ultimate collection; what's Jack Hayford doing there? The man's a kook.
Robert Pavich: And another thing In the ultimate collection; what's Jack Hayford doing there? The man's a kook.
Robert,An unnecessarily unkind remark about a widely known Christian leader. Please retract.(Eph 4:29)
If you don't like his theology, or some of what he writes, disagree in a more loving way. (Eph 4:15a)
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
Richard DeRuiter: Robert Pavich: And another thing In the ultimate collection; what's Jack Hayford doing there? The man's a kook. Robert,An unnecessarily unkind remark about a widely known Christian leader. Please retract.(Eph 4:29) If you don't like his theology, or some of what he writes, disagree in a more loving way. (Eph 4:15a)
Very well said Richard. You know his song Majesty has to be one of my favorite songs. Definitely in my top 5.
Bob,
Understand, I'm not quite so simple-minded as to suggest you give away the farm for $20 as the answer to everything. This isn't at all about a big price drop. I understand how Logos is positioned. I think if you carefully read my posts in this thread, I acknowledged that I know it's not an easy objective to reach the next tier; just saying I love your product and would like to help more people on the fringes use it. Maybe God even provides a way to do these things occasionally (see church history), above and beyond marketing principles. I would never suggest you give away a Ruth's Chris steak for a McDonald's price. Hopefully I don't come across quite so ignorantly. As Gilda Radner used to say, "Never Mind..." /enthusiasm (1/2 j/k)
http://www.robsuggs.com
Quick addition: Also, I've been too dismissive of the Home package. Checking back on it, that's actually a pretty substantial collection for beginners. But if I show newcomers that one at $150 and the Nelson, with basic Libronix, at $20, I think I can predict what they're likely to choose. The Nelson has some filler and lacks some good stuff, but it has the NKJV and NLT (I give the latter to seekers), a decent Bible dictionary, couple of very basic commentaries, and some frankly excellent things for my target audience: various maps and charts, Everyday Life in Bible Times, Talk Thru the Bible, some devotionals, and a bunch of Bible study guides (that I haven't reviewed). Looks like a good value to me--AGAIN, realizing this is a limited-time partner/publisher sale and Logos can't very well do something like that on a permanent basis. I'm just saying, take that Nelson package into an enthusiastic church service, do a demo, and you would sell several hundred or more immediately, just because most still don't have Bible software but (I think) so many would be willing to try it for $20. I could very well be wrong about this, because I intend to be an enthusiast--I think every book I work on will be a bestseller.
Mostly I have encouraged other ministers to buy Logos. I have also done so with my elders. But I have not thought much about the "lower end" of Logos users (entry level package users). I had never really considered how I could "multiply" my self and teaching/learning through Logos. Morris gave me a bit of inspiration with his suggestion to share notes, etc with others. I had never thought of that. While it IS exciting to think of that, truthfully, I have my hands full just trying to put SOME of what I learned at training (like putting my books into collections and PRAs) that some other things are going to fall by the wayside. It is simply too much for me to process and implement right away. However, there is potential. And i would say if Logos helps spell out to us busy guys with low tech brains, how we can multiply ourselves with Logos, and how we can even use it for bible study (in a group setting, say), then we'd be more enthusiastic to promote a very basic package. I like some of the suggestions like the NET bible, TSK, etc , and functions like search, etc.
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
Rob Suggs:Quick addition: Also, I've been too dismissive of the Home package. Checking back on it, that's actually a pretty substantial collection for beginners.
Yes, I just looked through the Home Edition and I realized that is what we are talking about. It has some addins, it has some modern Bibles, the dictionaries etc. What I would add to it, would be the NET BIble with all the notes. It is just great substitute for all the textual material. I think (with the Czech Bibles collection ) I would work hard on promoting it to our lay leaders and just Christian families. For a special PROMO price of 99 USD it would be a great deal people would buy, I think. But I am pastor, not a marketing expert. I trust Logos in being good in those things.
If I was in charge of Libronix corporation, here is what i would do. Come out with a very pared down version of Logos and call it Biblos that can be downloaded for free. Obviously, you do not want to give away the store, perhaps have KJV, Matthew Henry's, New Treasury of Scripture Knowledge, Strong's, one commentary book say from Wiersbe, and maybe one or two more resources.
My ideal, is once you get people linked in, then many will eventually want to upgrade. I am sure, some will never upgrade. Thing is, there are many whou would love to take it for a test drive before plunking money down, especially in today's economy.
If they have a download page, it will really not cost all that much to give a little away to gain a bunch more customers. I am talking about stuff that you can find online anyways.
Logos should hire me.
Here is the thing. Free. Offer the Libronix package with some low budget stuff commonly available on line. KJV, Stromg's, Matthew Henry, I would say throw in something from Wiersbe in one of his commentaries, mainly using libronix authored products that are commonly available online.
Offer it free. I know a ton of people online which I would tell about it. As I said in another post on this issue, some will never upgrade, but still rave about how great Logos is to their friends in their church and online communities-word of mouth. If there is some libronix authored product that is decent, but ready to go to the garbage bin as far as sales, incorporate it in an online download/update if it is not to costly.
If this is done, it will not wipe out your sales teams, offer the cheapie nelson's package in an email-download only for the ten or 20 dollar price that Morris Proctor offers in his seminars to futher wet the appetite. Give enough to satisfy the New babe in Christ, but enough to wet the appetite of the more mature Christians. With this, I would just highly emphasize discounted products and especially your payment program which I have taken advantage of in the past and am usng right now.
I would even call it "Biblos"
To further this, I would hire a few people to answer questions on this so that this protects your staff from dropping premium customers such as myself and others.
another ideal, many seminaries and bible institutions often have book stores. I am wandering if Logos ever thought of tapping into this market or into the market of some of the bigger churches?
I love Logos and has helped a lot in my spirtual journey. I just figure, the more people buy, the more products will be made available.
God bless
Dave Emme
If anyone doesn't like kook...how about false teacher?
that's a biblical term
Robert Pavich:If anyone doesn't like kook...how about false teacher?
present the basis for your claim .....
Dave===
Windows 10 & Android 8
Ok...
Here are a few:
He teaches that we are "little Gods"
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Quote:
"If miracles really did cease at 90 A.D. ... the heretic hunters were right! If we are not 'little Gods,' we will apologize to you in front of ten thousand times ten thousand before the Crystal Sea!"
("Marching Against Mammon") and rebroadcast on a on a 10/2/86 Living Way radio program.]
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He teaches that the Roman Catholic Eucharistic Sacrament is no different than the Christian Lord's supper; in reality it's false.
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"Redeeming worship centers on the Lord's Table, whether your tradition celebrates it as Communion, Eucharist, the Mass, or the Lord's Supper, we are all called to this centerpiece of Christian worship."
Seven Promises of a Promise Keeper page 19
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From an article in Christianity Today:
A few days later, he approached a large Catholic church. Having been raised to take strong exception to Catholic doctrine, he wondered whether he would have the same feelings. He did, and heard another message from God:
"Why would I not be happy with a place where every morning the testimony of the blood of my Son is raised from the altar?"
"I didn't hear God say that the Catholics are right about everything," Hayford says now, remembering the experience that changed his ministry. "For that matter, I didn't hear him saying the Baptists are right about everything, nor the Foursquare."
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The dogma of the Roman Catholic mass is not just another "Christian denomination" or a little difference like Baptist vs Reformed, it's heresy.
We aren't "little God's" or "God's in embryo" or anything like that.
This is just the tip of the iceberg but I think it will do to support the false teacher claim I made.
HI!
First of all...if you want to discuss the alleged false teaching of Jack Hayford, there's probably a better place to do it than hijacking this thread, which has a defined purpose that doesn't include exposing false teachers.
Second of all...I started out with the eBible. It was affordable and much better than fumbling around through my 8-pound Strong's and thrift-store commentary and topical Bible from college. Sure, the resources weren't great, but to me they were amazing!
So I think I'm in the demographic this thread is about: the lay person who is hungry and willing to learn, wants to teach, and just wants to know more about scripture study.
I think what I have must be the Ultimate Home or whatever you were mentioning. I have a home page for Libronix and one for Logos, and since Christmas I am glad to say I also have the John MacArthur home page!
That is one option that perhaps some of you are not thinking of: once you get a starter program, you can put packages on your gift wish list (hmmm....having a gift wish list like Amazon might not be a bad idea!) One thing I'd like to see is the option to purchase more books and references for my program ONE AT A TIME. For instance, I'd love to buy a reverse interlinear of one kind or another: but it seems I can't purchase just that, but must cough up $150 for the whole package, when I already have several of the resources in that package.
I also bought the eBible program for Christmas for my two adult children and my then-future son-in-law, my mother and her secretary who all have their own computers. They were all delighted, and have used them frequently since then. There was a special sale which made it very affordable--I think they were $25 each.
I still do not know how to use the power of this program. When I have time (I'm a widowed mother with two of my four children still at home, working and going to school full time) I look up the videos and tutorials to find out more. That's how I know there are resources I don't know how to use or to access.
By the way, you all are spitting the "Vines" out like it's a bad word: but if you really want to reach people like me, keep in mind that a Vines is a wealth of information compared to what I've had before. I may not know it's bad or why it's bad--it's just more about the Bible than I knew before. What reference would you prefer instead of Vines? Maybe you should contact the eBible people and suggest a different reference, giving good reason why it's not the best reference for lay persons like me?
Feel free to ask me, a person in the target demographic, any questions you'd like. I'd be glad to tell you how I use my program, what I wish was different, etc.
Esther
Esther,
I know that even the basic package was more than you had, I was just fretting over the fact that there are things there that are somewhat "substandard" when there are better resources available.
There just don't seem to be many low budget packages that include what I want to give someone; ones that have better resources are too high priced except for geeks...
Robert Pavich:This is just the tip of the iceberg but I think it will do to support the false teacher claim I made.
I agree with Esther - let's not "hijack" the thread. I agree with some assertions but non regarding Jack Hayford.
Dave,
No problem, I didn't want to start a flame war.
I was really more interested in what someone would use as a first package for a novice.