So...what would make you buy more books from Logos?

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This post has 178 Replies | 8 Followers

Posts 540
Glenn Crouch | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 10 2016 5:04 AM

Bruce Dunning:

I'm always looking for good deals and especially am motivated to purchase when those good deals include resources that interest me.

Agreed Big Smile

Pastor Glenn Crouch
St Paul's Lutheran Church
Kalgoorlie-Boulder, Western Australia

Posts 442
Tony Thomas | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 10 2016 7:42 AM

I hope that the Faithlife leadership team and marketing folks are reading this. 

Director of Zoeproject 

www.zoeproject.com

Posts 1577
Kenute P. Curry | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 10 2016 8:23 AM

They really should be Tony Thomas

Because they are losing money, and also losing customers.

Posts 1647
Rick | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 10 2016 8:42 AM

I would buy more if Faithlife:

1) Quit pushing bundles on us. I refuse to pay $200 to get a resource that costs $20 when sold by itself. Usually, by the time a bundle is broken up, I have either gotten it elsewhere or have lost interest.

2) Had more compelling prepub prices. Saving $5 on a resource that I'm not sure I want/need will not persuade me to buy it anyhow.

3) Had sells on resources that interest me.

Peace  Smile

Romans 14:19 (NRSV)
19 Let us then pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding.

Posts 3219
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PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 10 2016 9:17 AM

William Gabriel:

Definitely lower prices, however not through more frequent sales, but higher quality sales.

One of the negative trends I've noticed over the past few months is that FL puts together bundles of resources for sales but fails to pass along any regular savings over buying the items individually (omitting "Total value if purchased separately" information).

Bundles should always be discounted compared to the regular price of their items, even when they're not a part of a sale

I believe a higher-quality sale would apply additional savings to any initial* savings of a bundle.

*The bundle discounts probably should be better than ~1% I've recently noticed. Saving $2 when buying 50 books together isn't much of a savings in the first place.

Posts 5250
Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 10 2016 9:27 AM
The number one like everyone is resources that interest me. I find most of the time the prePub price is ok, although I will admit lately the prepub prices feel less than attractive. I have most of what I want already and paying off what I owe FL is my top priority. There are numerous things I have ordered that I would love to have but many are not past the gathering interest stage so if Fl won't offer them to me I cannot buy them. A fair price is also extremely important... If I can get a resource less than half price from a competitor no amount of tagging or integration is going to make it worth it for me to get it in Faithlife's ecosystem. -Dan
Posts 155
Dennis Davis | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 10 2016 10:07 AM

Like many others who responded, I look for resources that are: 1. priced right for me and 2. resources that appeal to me and my studies.  I admit to snagging every free resource that I see but many of these are so far down on my reading list that I have not read them.  So, again, it has to be resources that are relevant for me.

Posts 678
Dale E Heath | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 10 2016 11:05 AM

1. Dynamic pricing.

2. On sale for 25% off or more.

3. Already in a discounted bundle.

4. In my wish list.

5. A better way to organize my existing library and compare it to what's available in Logos and Vyrso.

Dale Heath

Posts 3187
Whyndell Grizzard | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 10 2016 11:37 AM

Buy only as needed anymore.

Posts 2825
Michael Childs | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 10 2016 12:14 PM

MJ. Smith:

Resources that meet my interests.

  If you publish the Bicentennial Edition Works of Wesley from Abingdon Press - the only scholarly edition of his works - I will beg and borrow the money to buy it.

"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley

Posts 1577
Kenute P. Curry | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 10 2016 12:27 PM

Am with you Whyndell Grizzard

I only buy as needed, and that's it. 

Posts 263
Greg Corbin | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 10 2016 1:02 PM

1.    The ability to choose specific resources to receive at a sale price.  I remember once several years ago that Logos did a promotion where purchasing resources resulted in Logos credit to use toward any other resources.  Anything that would enable me to zero in and get a deal on things that I want would give me incentive.

2.     More collections of well known evangelical pastor's sermons i.e.   W.A. Criswell, Charles Stanley, Alistair Begg, H. Edwin Young, H. B. Charles, Rick Warren, just to name a few.

3.     More collections from well known authors that actually include some of their best work.  On a number of occasions, I have excitedly seen the offer of a collection from a well-known pastor or theologian, but wound up disappointed when I realized they did not include the very titles that made me most excited look at a bundle from them.

Posts 2829
Don Awalt | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 10 2016 1:13 PM

I would buy more if....

1...FL stopped using so much of the money coming into Logos and Verbum for other ventures - Faithlife groups, Proclaim, Vyrso, Noet, Bible Study Magazine, Soundfaith, Lexham Press, Bible Screen, Every Day Bible, Kirkdale Press, Biblia, Beacon Ads, Faithlife TV, FaithSmiles, plus probably more that I missed.....doing some things to branch out is good, but I believe most of these, if not all, are losers of money for now - investments - and the investments come from that which makes the money, Logos and Verbum. If FL would get some focus, there would be money and resources to invest in staff to work on the core product - and it's going to take a lot of users to replace 25 heavy users of Logos who drop their spending considerably, for example. Faithlife is resource strapped right now, we are told as much on the forums - how many 1 or very small person departments are there these days? How many Logos/Verbum related projects are on hold indefinitely? No money, no people - it's going to other ventures, and the product suffers.

2...FL updated the web site and made it much more functional to the needs of its users. It's substandard for today's world in so many ways. It's also probably very hard to maintain and requires a lot of manual work to do every day tasks, likely with home grown code written by people no longer in the company, and as we have seen very prone to mistakes. How many problems with forum posts, pricing, inaccurate information, delays in product information being updated, inability to correctly deal with spam, inconsistencies in how something appears one place vs. another, etc.? 

3. ...FL invested in fixing the bugs, clumsy user interface, performance issues, Mac stability issues, and incomplete features instead of continuing to heap more new features that a small percentage of the user base needs or asks for - a symptom of the dream of subscription based software that drives the continual need to find new customers and advertise a growing list of features. No one can use all the features heavily in the product any more on any desktop computer, the performance and stability is so bad if they do. Logos/Verbum is getting more and more challenging to use, and its features are getting less and less cooperative with other features when thinking about how to do Bible study. With the growth in library sizes and new features, how well do you think the product will work in 2-3 years? I would think you would get a lot more new subscribers by having forum users that exhibit how happy heavy users are with the product - it runs so well, so easy to use - instead of trying to have the longest list of new features. Quality software sells a lot of product.

4. ...FL was more transparent. The issues have been there for awhile. - It seems FL fails to understand that acknowledging issues and committing to do something about it buys a lot of loyalty. Is there any evidence that FL sees any of these bigger issues as problems? Doesn't that seem odd that we would have to wonder about it? Why have some big problems been left unaddressed for years? At some point more customers scale back or stop buying entirely, no matter how alluring the sales are, if they think  there are problems and the company won't even acknowledge or discuss them. 

Maybe none of these are problems - but it sure seems they are to me. I used to think my world would end if Faithlife went away, the product experience and community engagement was so good. Now I really think if it happened, despite my considerable investment, I would just shrug my shoulders and move on. That's very sad.

Posts 332
Steve Farson | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 10 2016 2:29 PM

The option to easily read resources on an E-Ink device without wailing and gnashing of teeth.  I would buy Logos books versus Kindle books. 

Posts 3054
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 10 2016 2:33 PM

1. Larger catalogue - more resources of interest to me, more sales. Adding certain publishers (e.g., Scepter) or contracting for/carrying more books by publishers that they already have some stock from (e.g., TAN, CUA Press) would help a lot with this. Relaunching a number of individual volumes or mini-collections using remnants from cancelled CUA and other Pee-Pub bundles would be nice.

2. Page number tagging for Abingdon Press/other academic Vyrso/Noet Ebooks titles. I'd do it myself for some of those books in return for a free copy of whatever I did it for. Seriously, page number tagging would be more than enough!

3. Versions of Libraries stripped of grammars/original language resources. Maybe I'm the only person who has more resources on ancient languages and whatnot that I care for, but I doubt it. Highly discounted resources that I don't want just make what I do want more expensive, which makes me buy less of it, so FL gets less of my money.

4. Bundle-breaking - there are a number of titles that I would like to pick up that are still in their old Pre-Pub bundles (only), or which are offered as part of Pre-Pub bundles that I otherwise don't care for.

5. More curated Catholic/Verbum bundles - A "Verbum Classic Commentaries Bundle" composed of Catholic and perhaps 'near Catholic' classic commentaries from the giant Classic Commentaries Bundle 3.0 would be pretty high on my wishlist, for example.

Posts 26533
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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 10 2016 2:41 PM

Let me step back a little and give a totally unrelated case as an example.  A little over a year ago, I left Seattle for a small town in the mountains a bit outside the city - far enough outside that there are only big chain grocers - none of the large niche grocers at whom I had regularly shopped. One of my favorite grocers (Central Market) had been going to open a store within 25 miles of me - a thought to warm any tummy. Then they backed out because the industry was changing too quickly - Seattle now has a no checkout Amazon grocery using cell phones (employees only at this point), a chain has opened a preorder only drive up to pick up grocery, and a myriad of companies offer delivery of the necessary ingredients for preplanned meals.

Logos is in an industry that is similarly changing rapidly. But they are like a local chain which must be able to adapt quickly to stay in the market but without the resources of the national chains. Plus they are headed by an ideas man - someone who loves to see new possibilities. So yes, they develop Faithlife groups, Proclaim, Vyrso, Noet, Bible Study Magazine, Soundfaith, Lexham Press, Bible Screen, Every Day Bible, Kirkdale Press, Biblia, Beacon Ads, Faithlife TV, FaithSmiles - and Faithlife News. Some of these are simply repurposing software they already have; some are prototypes to test markets; some are new elements to win at the integration game. They are the Logos strategy for not becoming a store that is unable to expand because of uncertainty as  to the future. Logos wants to be a player in shaping the future.

The only time outside of Faithlife I have ever seen customers trying to second guess management to anything close to this extent is when Safeway did a reboot and lost significant market share as they had disastrously misunderstood their market base. They correctly identified where they went wrong and readjusted. Company transparency is usually an issue between the company and its stockholders, not the company and its consumers. As a consumer what I expect from a company is honesty in packaging, labeling, advertising ... and customer service at a level I deem appropriate (I don't expect Nordstrom level service at Costco).

I agree that we should hold Faithlife's feet to the fire with regards to bug fixes, promised resources and tagging - you should get what you were promised was included in your purchase. As an economist would tell you, pricing is related to demand (i.e. the customers' willingness to buy), so if you don't like the pricing vote with your dollars just as you do in any other consumer relationship. But please ... most of us are not business owners and have neither the expertise or desire to be one. Then consider if all the speculation and/or complaining is actually the best use of your time. The best use of my time was to comb the internet and business directories to find grocers who had something I needed or online businesses that could ship it to me. So successful that I even managed to find alligator pepper - related to but not the same as grains of paradise and some would have you believe. Big Smile

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 2829
Don Awalt | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 10 2016 3:03 PM

Cute story.

MJ. Smith:
so if you don't like the pricing vote with your dollars just as you do in any other consumer relationship.

I think that's exactly what people are saying they are doing. The comments come because there is a vested interest involved here. We are not buying groceries - which are perishable, consumed, and there is no expectation of value beyond their eventual consumption. 

MJ. Smith:
Then consider if all the speculation and/or complaining is actually the best use of your time.

Why do you call it complaining and not feedback? I wonder if Faithlife sees it the same? That would answer some questions...Hmm...

MJ. Smith:
The best use of my time was to comb the internet and business directories to find grocers

Google "switching costs" for customers - while your story is a nice one and has some relevant points, there is little to no cost to switching to a new grocery store. With Logos/Verbum, costs of switching are very high - and most know that, especially Faithlife. If this was a grocery store I suspect most of the "complainers" would be long gone.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 10 2016 3:10 PM

Don Awalt:
Why do you call it complaining and not feedback?

Because I am talking about the complaining and not about the feedback? They are not the same thing and both occur in the forums.

But the point was about adaptation not the goods purchased.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 1426
Wild Eagle | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 10 2016 3:49 PM

Dale E Heath:

1. Dynamic pricing.

2. On sale for 25% off or more.

3. Already in a discounted bundle.

4. In my wish list.

Yes On the top of that, if bundle is cheaper that separate resource

"No man is greater than his prayer life. The pastor who is not praying is playing; the people who are not praying are straying." Leonard Ravenhill 

Posts 754
LogosEmployee
Sean Boisen | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 10 2016 3:52 PM

EastTN:

Much higher resolution images (charts, graphs, pictures, illustrations, etc.) in books.  Unless I'm just doing something wrong, it seems that most of the graphic material in the books I have is quite low resolution.  For me at least, maps, charts and diagrams are generally much less useful in Logos than they would be in paper form.  That's one of my biggest frustrations.  I've gotten to where I completely discount the presence of illustrations when deciding whether or not to buy a book, because I go into it assuming they won't have any value to me.  And that's so unnecessary.  With an electronic version it seems intuitive that you would have high resolution images that you could easily zoom in on.

In most cases, for third-party resources we're dependent on the resolution of the images that the publisher provides. The older the resource, the more likely it is that it's lower-resolution.

On the other hand, for media that Faithlife creates and publishes, we work hard to make sure the resolution is as high as is practical.

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