So...what would make you buy more books from Logos?

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PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 10 2016 3:57 PM

Don Awalt:

Why do you call it complaining and not feedback? I wonder if Faithlife sees it the same? That would answer some questions...Hmm...

Complaining is annoying, feedback isn't? FL hears the same things, over and over and over, from the same people, me included.

Feedback from the company would be good that something is being done (such as figuring out a new pre-pub policy). Then people could wait and see (and be pleased when the change is announced).

Unfortunately, most things are unacknowledged, such as recurring product page/pricing issues, and lack of dynamic pricing or bundle discounts.

I don't envy FL. It must be hard to keep customers satisfied with the program, satisfied with the quality of the resources, satisfied with the prices or savings, etc.

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GregW | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 10 2016 4:34 PM

I would buy more if...

  1. New books came to Logos more quickly. I've bought a number of dead-tree or Kindle books which I needed to read for projects, but which weren't available in Logos. Examples would be Chris Wright's The Mission of God, Fee & Stuart's Old & New Testament Exegesis, a number of books I had to purchase for an MA course I was doing, Tom Wright's 2016 Advent for Everyone, Richard HaysReading Backwards several books by Jamie Smith, and a number of others. I am not sure Logos/Faithlife is doing a good job of checking for what seminaries and theological colleges (or at least those outside the USA) put on their course reading lists. I also wonder if it would help if "reading" books were initially made available with less tagging, and subsequently tagged up. I fully understand why reference books need greater depth of tagging, but a book that I'm just going to read needs Scripture tagging, and it would be helpful to have footnotes hyperlinked to the books they refer to, but not much more is needed for me to be able to read the book fruitfully. If it were made clear at purchase that it was only partially tagged, I'd be fine with that. 
  2. Books from other, newer, theology specialities were available. I started an MA in 2012 which included a module on Practical Theology which has become a theological discipline in itself. Some academic theologians are a bit sniffy about it, but those of us who live in both the academic and pastoral worlds are engaged with it. Not one of the books I needed for the course was available in Logos or Vyrso. 
  3. Books were made more readily available individually, rather than in bundles. I know that discounts are bigger on bundles, and understand why, but if I want a $20 book it's no use to me in a $100 bundle, even if that bundle is normally $200. I have been through the process of acquiring commentaries, lexicons, grammars, systematic theologies and original-language texts and apparatus, and probably won't be buying base packages or bundles in future, but do still buy several books every month (a reducing proportion of which are in Logos format), and many of these are available as part of bundles, but not at a price I can afford. 
  4. More response was made to suggestions for resources on here. I hovered over the "Buy" button on A-Company's website today and very nearly bought the Carta set. These are invaluable for those of us who do significant amounts of teaching, as well as those who preach. It was only the thought of having to switch between applications that put me off, but if I eventually find they're not available in Logos, I will end up becoming a customer of theirs (I've already downloaded their Lite version, which means they'r enow emailing me), and will probably eventually buy other products from them that are also available in Logos, my preferred platform. The Carta resources have been regularly requested on here over a number of years, but nobody has responded (as far as I remember) to say whether they're in the pipeline, Logos won't be offering them, negotiations are on going, or Carta has an exclusivity deal with A-company. If we knew we could plan (or buy elsewhere).
  5. Logos recognised better that customers have a lifecycle. From Bob's posts on here I can see that this is beginning to be recognised, and Mark's thread on what people have bought year by year has helped. I first got into Logos when I needed a commentary for an Exegesis course that was never available in the library because everyone needed it. I bought it in electronic format (I was studying abroad and weight coming home was a concern). To use it I had to install Libronix software. Then there was a Logos deal going for people at our college and I bought the L4 Leader's Library. Once I became a pastor, I upgraded to Silver just before L5 came out, and later to Platinum and to L6 Platinum when L6 came out. I added some commentary series, textual apparatus and lexicons to make this into a package that made my preparation of teaching and preaching easier, as well as my academic papers.  I didn't buy a L7 base package. Since then, I have bought only individual books or small sets as I cannot afford and do not need to do more than that. Logos marketing needs to reach out to people in my stage of the customer lifecycle as well as those building their libraries. I think that things like getting $35 of Logos credit for every $30 you buy if you set up a monthly subscription would be quite enticing to me.
  6. Logos offered a discount to people in full-time ministry, as well as academic discounts. I really appreciated Academic Discount when I had it, but I don't any more. A-Company offers a 10% discount for those in full-time ministry (as well as a number of other categories). 
  7. Logos didn't make me search across Logos, Verbum, Vyrso, Noet and Noet Ebooks sites. I don't understand the rationale that some of the Counterpoints books are only available on Vyrso, while some are only available on Logos (see the first and second editions of Four Views on Hell). I wrote an Applescript in the end to enable me to search across all the Faithlife online stores in one go. Some of us drink from more than one theological fountain, and it is frustrating to have to try and guess which store we need. I'm a charismatic evangelical with a penchant for Benedictine, Ignatian and Celtic spirituality and Church History. That might be my problem, but I don't want to have to search in up to five different stores to find a book when one search on Amazon will get me the Kindle version. 

I hate to disagree with some of the other views, but I'm personally not that excited by massive discounts in sales any more, although I am very pleased when a title I want is on sale. I suspect the lower levels of sale discounts have more to do with tectonic plates moving in the publishing industry than penny-pinching by Faithlife. I'd like to be able to get the books I need for a project at a reasonable price, at the time when I need them for the project I'm working on rather than two or three years after I've bought them in Kindle, dead-tree or A-company format. Sorry to keep mentioning A-company, and I'm not one of their fans, but I do think someone in Faithlife's Marketing team could do with spending an hour or two browsing their website.  

In case this sounds like a complaint, I love Logos, use it every day of my life, am an enthusiastic Logos Now subscriber, and have great admiration for the way Bob engages with his customers despite the kickbacks he gets in these forums at times.  


Running Logos 6 Platinum and Logos Now on Surface Pro 4, 8 GB RAM, 256GB SSD, i5

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Jacob Hantla | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 10 2016 6:37 PM

For me 100% it is resources that I want at the time I want them. Getting newly published stuff out more quickly would be huge

Jacob Hantla
Pastor/Elder, Grace Bible Church
gbcaz.org

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DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 10 2016 6:45 PM

MJ you call anything you don't agree with as complaining and consider only those things you agree with as feedback. At the end of the day though rhe judgement you  have appointed yourself to pass on your fellow customers is not going to stop them from providing feedback to Faithlife regardless of what you might call it.

You say you have no business knowledge - so stop telling your fellow customers, some of whom have more experience, knowledge and qualifications in business and in dealing with customers, particularly the issue of customer engagement,  that your opinion is more valid than theirs and that they are simply complaing. For someone who says they have no authority to speak on the subject you are quick to judge the value of what other customers say.

MJ. Smith:

Don Awalt:
Why do you call it complaining and not feedback?

Because I am talking about the complaining and not about the feedback? They are not the same thing and both occur in the forums.

But the point was about adaptation not the goods purchased.

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DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 10 2016 7:15 PM

PetahChristian:
Complaining is annoying, feedback isn't?

No, it's not.  Let's keep it simple and look at the MW (that's MW by the way not MJ) Learner's Dictionary:

http://www.learnersdictionary.com/definition/complain

1) [no object] : to say or write that you are unhappy, sick, uncomfortable, etc., or that you do not like something

2) [+ object] : to say (something that expresses annoyance or unhappiness)

I dont' see nay reference there to annoying or inappropriate or wrong or immoral or anything similar. 

PetahChristian:
FL hears the same things, over and over and over, from the same people, me included.

They need to ask themselves why this is the case....

PetahChristian:

Feedback from the company would be good that something is being done (such as figuring out a new pre-pub policy). Then people could wait and see (and be pleased when the change is announced).

Unfortunately, most things are unacknowledged, such as recurring product page/pricing issues, and lack of dynamic pricing or bundle discounts.

Actually you've just answered why 

PetahChristian:
FL hears the same things, over and over and over, from the same people, me included.

They don't bother answering the feedback their customers provide.

 

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DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 10 2016 7:18 PM

Great sales on great quality resources!

Zondervan might bring back some of the great deals from the past during 12 Days of Logos! Be on the look out for those 👍

DAL

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DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 10 2016 7:31 PM

Tony Thomas:

Lower prices?  Better libraries and bundles?  More frequent sales?  Just curious.  

1. Better customer service - the amount of unanswered customer feedback is increasing. It gives you less trust in the company.

2. Resources of interest - goes without saying really.

3. Sales that are not full of high priced bundles but offer a range of price point options

4. Less reliance on internet for accessing features - Atlas is a big disappointment (did they ever even finish what we payed for in Logos 6 ?) along with things like bible browser.

5. I could search across all store fronts with the one search routine.

6. Either correctly tag bible reference in Vyrso books or publish Theologies, Commentaries, Bible Studies and References etc in Logos format only and leave Vyrso for novels and other titles unrelated to studying the scriptures.

7. Dynamic pricing on all bundles along with "New to Me" view available for all bundles and pricing setup and displayed correctly.

8. Sales that are not based on phoning up someone at Faithlife to find out the price

 

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DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 10 2016 7:46 PM

Don Awalt:

1...FL stopped using so much of the money coming into Logos and Verbum for other ventures - Faithlife groups, Proclaim, Vyrso, Noet, Bible Study Magazine, Soundfaith, Lexham Press, Bible Screen, Every Day Bible, Kirkdale Press, Biblia, Beacon Ads, Faithlife TV, FaithSmiles, plus probably more that I missed.....doing some things to branch out is good, but I believe most of these, if not all, are losers of money for now - investments - and the investments come from that which makes the money, Logos and Verbum. If FL would get some focus, there would be money and resources to invest in staff to work on the core product - and it's going to take a lot of users to replace 25 heavy users of Logos who drop their spending considerably, for example. Faithlife is resource strapped right now, we are told as much on the forums - how many 1 or very small person departments are there these days? How many Logos/Verbum related projects are on hold indefinitely? No money, no people - it's going to other ventures, and the product suffers.

2...FL updated the web site and made it much more functional to the needs of its users. It's substandard for today's world in so many ways. It's also probably very hard to maintain and requires a lot of manual work to do every day tasks, likely with home grown code written by people no longer in the company, and as we have seen very prone to mistakes. How many problems with forum posts, pricing, inaccurate information, delays in product information being updated, inability to correctly deal with spam, inconsistencies in how something appears one place vs. another, etc.? 

3. ...FL invested in fixing the bugs, clumsy user interface, performance issues, Mac stability issues, and incomplete features instead of continuing to heap more new features that a small percentage of the user base needs or asks for - a symptom of the dream of subscription based software that drives the continual need to find new customers and advertise a growing list of features. No one can use all the features heavily in the product any more on any desktop computer, the performance and stability is so bad if they do. Logos/Verbum is getting more and more challenging to use, and its features are getting less and less cooperative with other features when thinking about how to do Bible study. With the growth in library sizes and new features, how well do you think the product will work in 2-3 years? I would think you would get a lot more new subscribers by having forum users that exhibit how happy heavy users are with the product - it runs so well, so easy to use - instead of trying to have the longest list of new features. Quality software sells a lot of product.

4. ...FL was more transparent. The issues have been there for awhile. - It seems FL fails to understand that acknowledging issues and committing to do something about it buys a lot of loyalty. Is there any evidence that FL sees any of these bigger issues as problems? Doesn't that seem odd that we would have to wonder about it? Why have some big problems been left unaddressed for years? At some point more customers scale back or stop buying entirely, no matter how alluring the sales are, if they think  there are problems and the company won't even acknowledge or discuss the

Very true Don.  Of the things you list in point 1 above I do think Lexham Press is a worthwhile ventures. Faithlife TV along with Proclaim and Logos Now are FL's way of trying to claw back some of the revenue being lost by long term customers with large libraries now reaching the end of their free spending lifecycle by introducing a regular committed flow of cash into the business that they can bank on having each month.

Don Awalt:
I used to think my world would end if Faithlife went away, the product experience and community engagement was so good.

was is the key word Don..

I dont' expect all of the above to be fixed right away or even in the next 12 months but some progress needs to be made on the things you raise here Don.  But you do raise some quick wins, particularly in stopping redirecting their resources to side projects that add little value and simply start communicating with their customers in a more transparent way. For the bigger items, even if FL said in 2017 we'll work on getting the website fixed, that would be a positive step forward.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 10 2016 7:49 PM

Criticism vs. Feedback--Which One Wins, Hands-Down? in two parts.

from another source Know the Difference Between a Customer Complaint & Customer Feedback:

There are subtle differences as you move across the spectrum. For example, here are three different ways a customer could contact you about the same topic:

•    The complaint: “I can’t believe you don’t ________! I’m never doing business with you again!”

•    The question: “We’ve just bought your product, and we’re wondering if it can  ______?”

•    The suggestion: “We’re frequent customers of yours and really enjoy your product/service. We’d like to suggest you ________.”

The first example is a complaint and should be handled with service recovery in mind. If it’s made on your Facebook page or other social media platform remember, others, including your evangelists, are watching. Take the complaint professionally, not personally. Think before you respond, then do so in a calm manner with the intent not only to retain the customer but to increase his or her loyalty to you.

The second example is a customer who requesting information. You have an opportunity here to increase their loyalty.

The third example is from a customer evangelist. This is a small group of people who are your biggest fans and who frequently refer others to you. They offer you a suggestion that will increase your profits because then they will be able to engage with you more often which they enjoy doing. You do not want to mishandle this suggestion. An appropriate response can strengthen their loyalty thereby increasing their lifetime value to you. This is true even when there is no way in heck you can implement their suggestion. Fumbling the response can crush or severely damage their loyalty to you costing you profits in direct sales and referrals.

If you cannot meet their need, be especially careful how you respond. Generally, your employee handling the response is not in a position to change organization policy. Rather than saying, “No,” your employee should tell the person he or she will communicate their suggestion up to a higher level. Then have that person reply (perhaps off-line in the case of social media.) For an example of how not to do it, see my recent post, Squelching Customer Feedback Is A Bad Social Media Policy.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 10 2016 8:40 PM

So you can run a google search.... 

MJ. Smith:

... and what you have chosen to share only strengthens the concern customers are raising about the lack of response from Faithlife about complaints in general.

MJ. Smith:
The first example is a complaint and should be handled with service recovery in mind. If it’s made on your Facebook page or other social media platform remember, others, including your evangelists, are watching. Take the complaint professionally, not personally. Think before you respond, then do so in a calm manner with the intent not only to retain the customer but to increase his or her loyalty to you.

Too often FL leaves it up to their MVP's to respond to a complaint which is totally unfair.  MVP's do not represent the company and they have no authority to resolve the complaint. The response of MVP's i see in situations such as this:

   

MJ. Smith:
    The complaint: “I can’t believe you don’t ________! I’m never doing business with you again!”

i.e. frustrated / distressed customers, demonstrates, MVPs are not equipped to handle these situations, and often results in long unpleasant posts on these forums because of how MVP's try to resolve but only make the situation worse.

I would be amiss though if I did not acknowledge there are some FL employees who do try to respond to customers when time allows them to do so, and heir efforts are appreciated..

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 10 2016 9:47 PM

Disciple of Christ (doc):
... and what you have chosen to share only strengthens the concern customers are raising about the lack of response from Faithlife about complaints in general.

That was intentional so that the difference between complaining and feedback was emphasized without any implication that the feedback on the forums was inappropriate.

Sorry you did not appreciate my clarifying the distinction I see between the terms and providing links to information I thought relevant to the conversation. I considered it appropriate because it was my use of the terms that caused the original confusion. I am very aware that there is a subset of forum readers with whom I have trouble communicating in a clear, unambiguous style. I am also aware that there is always a period of second guessing marketing and feature selection after a major upgrade release. This particular time the tone of the forum caused me to pull back in reading the forums and temporarily suspend the TIP of the day.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 11 2016 4:47 AM

Tony Thomas:

Lower prices?  Better libraries and bundles?  More frequent sales?  Just curious.  

  1. Books that I definitely want to read/use immediately: Availability is the key factor, as long as the price is within 10-20% of Amazon, I'll buy them.
  2. Monographs that look as though they might be useful one day: Price — I'm looking for around $2-$3 per resource, but am very happy to buy in bulk to get those prices.
  3. Good-quality commentaries that I don't need right now: I'd pay up to $10 for these. Again, I'm happy to buy in bulk.
  4. Good-quality reference books that I don't need right now: I'd pay between $5-$15 for these.
  5. Fillers: I might pay upto $1/resource if I don't have much other expenditure.

So I guess that unless I want a very specific book, I'd buy for if I got discounts of around 75-80% for good quality useful books, and 95% for fillers.

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Don Awalt | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 11 2016 5:42 AM

MJ. Smith:
This particular time the tone of the forum caused me to pull back in reading the forums and temporarily suspend the TIP of the day.

I am sure I am part of that tone and I apologize for anyone I offended, including you MJ. I am just so frustrated with the problems in my face that have been for some time. The people on the front lines are great - I wish guys like Bradley, Philana, Louis, etc. had more help/bigger teams. They have thankless jobs yet they do so much. It is the stuff I 'complain' about here that gets so frustrating. 

I am taking your tip and freeing myself of this MJ. 

This morning I unsubscribed from all the forums via email. Now besides 2 hour delays, I get duplicates, I get posts out of sequence. All this to cover up that anyone can sign up for a forum account with no approval, so spam runs rampant otherwise. That's a company policy, and sad we are affected. But no more for me. I will miss the community here, but you are right MJ, the bitterness and frustration level has increased. And I have been a part of that. I won't contribute t that anymore.

I have cancelled all my orders, prepubs, community pricing. My library is plenty big enough. I am sure I have been one of the top purchasing customers since 2003, this is probably a good thing. I will  not be purchasing again. I will not feel bitter because FL doesn't even acknowledge my problems beyond the front lines, yet they take my money. 

I have cancelled all the email lists I am on from marketing. No need for them now.

I have uninstalled Verbum on my Mac. Done. Too unstable, too many freezes, no one can find the problem. Many thanks to Ryan Gano who for awhile was trying to sort out the problem. Now it's fixed (for me).

I have closed Verbum on my desktop - I usually kept it open all the time. There I saw the Home page with gaps all over it, wondering why such a "first view" aesthetic like that is tolerated by FL. What a far cry from reading the insights of Jony Ive on user interface.

I had already deleted all my Visual Filters as the only way I could open a bible and use it without waiting for a 25 second freeze on a 4 core high perf laptop. I deleted all my prayer lists because Logos wouldn't do anything to encrypt our data on its servers. 

I have adopted other ways to do things - for awhile, I have done clippings and notes in Evernote. What I really like is I can search, and the result comes right up! Amazing that Logos/Verbum can't show search results in Notes, isn't it? I have been adopting other ways to do things as well, and I have not realized it until I thought about it today. I will pray for, and worry about FL customers. I can't imagine what Verbum/Logos will look like in another year or two with a bucket of new features being piled into the product every 6 weeks. That's a strategy that can't work long term, but in the name of subscriptions FL will give it their best shot. I hope it works.

I have completely separated from the FL world, and it feels liberating. Good bye and good luck. While at times I was the gadfly for MJ because of my reaction to some of her posts, it is ironic and quite funny to me that her comment was what really got me thinking it is time to go away. And so I will. I wish I could have done it with the grace of Rosie, oh well. 

If anyone wants to contact me, I will be notified through Faithlife groups if a message is sent through there (I did leave all my groups). I suspect no one will. That's ok, I probably deserve that. "A voice crying out in the wilderness" - it cost John the Baptist his head. I am far luckier.

Good luck, God's grace, peace and love in your lives.

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Rick Ausdahl | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 11 2016 6:00 AM

GregW:

I would buy more if...

  1. New books came to Logos more quickly. I've bought a number of dead-tree or Kindle books which I needed to read for projects, but which weren't available in Logos. Examples would be Chris Wright's The Mission of God, Fee & Stuart's Old & New Testament Exegesis, a number of books I had to purchase for an MA course I was doing, Tom Wright's 2016 Advent for Everyone, Richard HaysReading Backwards several books by Jamie Smith, and a number of others. I am not sure Logos/Faithlife is doing a good job of checking for what seminaries and theological colleges (or at least those outside the USA) put on their course reading lists. I also wonder if it would help if "reading" books were initially made available with less tagging, and subsequently tagged up. I fully understand why reference books need greater depth of tagging, but a book that I'm just going to read needs Scripture tagging, and it would be helpful to have footnotes hyperlinked to the books they refer to, but not much more is needed for me to be able to read the book fruitfully. If it were made clear at purchase that it was only partially tagged, I'd be fine with that. 
  2. Books from other, newer, theology specialities were available. I started an MA in 2012 which included a module on Practical Theology which has become a theological discipline in itself. Some academic theologians are a bit sniffy about it, but those of us who live in both the academic and pastoral worlds are engaged with it. Not one of the books I needed for the course was available in Logos or Vyrso. 
  3. Books were made more readily available individually, rather than in bundles. I know that discounts are bigger on bundles, and understand why, but if I want a $20 book it's no use to me in a $100 bundle, even if that bundle is normally $200. I have been through the process of acquiring commentaries, lexicons, grammars, systematic theologies and original-language texts and apparatus, and probably won't be buying base packages or bundles in future, but do still buy several books every month (a reducing proportion of which are in Logos format), and many of these are available as part of bundles, but not at a price I can afford. 
  4. More response was made to suggestions for resources on here. I hovered over the "Buy" button on A-Company's website today and very nearly bought the Carta set. These are invaluable for those of us who do significant amounts of teaching, as well as those who preach. It was only the thought of having to switch between applications that put me off, but if I eventually find they're not available in Logos, I will end up becoming a customer of theirs (I've already downloaded their Lite version, which means they'r enow emailing me), and will probably eventually buy other products from them that are also available in Logos, my preferred platform. The Carta resources have been regularly requested on here over a number of years, but nobody has responded (as far as I remember) to say whether they're in the pipeline, Logos won't be offering them, negotiations are on going, or Carta has an exclusivity deal with A-company. If we knew we could plan (or buy elsewhere).
  5. Logos recognised better that customers have a lifecycle. From Bob's posts on here I can see that this is beginning to be recognised, and Mark's thread on what people have bought year by year has helped. I first got into Logos when I needed a commentary for an Exegesis course that was never available in the library because everyone needed it. I bought it in electronic format (I was studying abroad and weight coming home was a concern). To use it I had to install Libronix software. Then there was a Logos deal going for people at our college and I bought the L4 Leader's Library. Once I became a pastor, I upgraded to Silver just before L5 came out, and later to Platinum and to L6 Platinum when L6 came out. I added some commentary series, textual apparatus and lexicons to make this into a package that made my preparation of teaching and preaching easier, as well as my academic papers.  I didn't buy a L7 base package. Since then, I have bought only individual books or small sets as I cannot afford and do not need to do more than that. Logos marketing needs to reach out to people in my stage of the customer lifecycle as well as those building their libraries. I think that things like getting $35 of Logos credit for every $30 you buy if you set up a monthly subscription would be quite enticing to me.
  6. Logos offered a discount to people in full-time ministry, as well as academic discounts. I really appreciated Academic Discount when I had it, but I don't any more. A-Company offers a 10% discount for those in full-time ministry (as well as a number of other categories). 
  7. Logos didn't make me search across Logos, Verbum, Vyrso, Noet and Noet Ebooks sites. I don't understand the rationale that some of the Counterpoints books are only available on Vyrso, while some are only available on Logos (see the first and second editions of Four Views on Hell). I wrote an Applescript in the end to enable me to search across all the Faithlife online stores in one go. Some of us drink from more than one theological fountain, and it is frustrating to have to try and guess which store we need. I'm a charismatic evangelical with a penchant for Benedictine, Ignatian and Celtic spirituality and Church History. That might be my problem, but I don't want to have to search in up to five different stores to find a book when one search on Amazon will get me the Kindle version. 

I hate to disagree with some of the other views, but I'm personally not that excited by massive discounts in sales any more, although I am very pleased when a title I want is on sale. I suspect the lower levels of sale discounts have more to do with tectonic plates moving in the publishing industry than penny-pinching by Faithlife. I'd like to be able to get the books I need for a project at a reasonable price, at the time when I need them for the project I'm working on rather than two or three years after I've bought them in Kindle, dead-tree or A-company format. Sorry to keep mentioning A-company, and I'm not one of their fans, but I do think someone in Faithlife's Marketing team could do with spending an hour or two browsing their website.  

In case this sounds like a complaint, I love Logos, use it every day of my life, am an enthusiastic Logos Now subscriber, and have great admiration for the way Bob engages with his customers despite the kickbacks he gets in these forums at times.  

Thanks for taking the words out of my mouth and putting them on "paper".  I agree completely with every point you made but two things in particular caught my attention.

  1. Point number four:  Over the course of the past two weeks, I too have downloaded the free Lite version of the "A" software, I too am getting emails now and visiting the A-company's web site.  I too have hovered (multiple times) over the "purchase" button for graphics package that includes a Carta resource I want, but decided to first purchase a lower price map resource in order to play with and evaluate the software.  Why?  In part, for exactly the same reason as you (Carta) along with some other graphics related resources.  For me though, an additional factor spurring my interest in the other software is the desire for a simple and fast way to access maps, charts, and pictures relevant to the specific scripture passages I'm reading, AND to have those map, chart, and pictures resources on my computer rather than requiring an internet connection.  Also like you, I would really like to avoid the need to have multiple Bible apps open and would prefer to be able to have my study needs met within Logos.  THAT is the only reason I haven't yet hit the purchase button for the resources in the other software.  But I'm starting to think I'll have to bite the bullet and use the other software for my map related studies.
  2. Your last paragraph.  I'm not a Logos Now member, but all else applies.
Posts 2405
David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 11 2016 6:49 AM

Price:  The publisher sells to large brick libraries.  They sell for $2000 to a brick library with 2000 members. That is $1 per member  If that was sold on Logos at the per member price ($1) instead of the per library price ($2000) maybe we would buy more books.   We just need to convince the publishers to see their sales on a per reader and not a per sale basis.   

Posts 10178
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 11 2016 7:53 AM

Anyone that's successfully stayed married knows criticism and feedback are all in the hearing. Demanding the frustrated one to distinguish is an exercize in sky blue vs baby blue.

Regarding books, it's true my purchasing has fallen off. But often I accidentally see volumes I didn't know they had. Some of the OT and hebrew collections were really interesting, but not the price.

I don't scan the NT one, since they always have an agenda, depending on the theology. Logos' NT library is tightly managed.

I did notice that for 7 years, the Logos resource page has been a complete zero for similar titles. But oddly, the checkout has a really good algorythm. I end up emptying my cart, and buying the suggested volumes. That's how I shop both Amazon and Apple ... the similars lists ... guaranteed purchase.


Posts 1018
EastTN | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 11 2016 12:43 PM

Sean Boisen:

EastTN:

Much higher resolution images (charts, graphs, pictures, illustrations, etc.) in books.  Unless I'm just doing something wrong, it seems that most of the graphic material in the books I have is quite low resolution.  For me at least, maps, charts and diagrams are generally much less useful in Logos than they would be in paper form.  That's one of my biggest frustrations.  I've gotten to where I completely discount the presence of illustrations when deciding whether or not to buy a book, because I go into it assuming they won't have any value to me.  And that's so unnecessary.  With an electronic version it seems intuitive that you would have high resolution images that you could easily zoom in on.

In most cases, for third-party resources we're dependent on the resolution of the images that the publisher provides. The older the resource, the more likely it is that it's lower-resolution.

On the other hand, for media that Faithlife creates and publishes, we work hard to make sure the resolution is as high as is practical.

Thank you very much for clarifying. I appreciate that in many cases you are hostage to what you're given by a publisher.

I would suggest that you consider what can be done to improve the quality of images in the out-of-copyright works that you scan from old books. One example that disappointed me were the images from the Classic Studies and Atlases on Biblical Geography (7 vols.).  I just went back to actually look at one of the images so I could articulate my concern more clearly.  Plate number XII (The Tabernacle and the Temple) from The Bible Atlas of Maps and Plans is a good example.  It doesn't seem particularly clear, and there are what seem to be some weird color artifacts.  I copied it over to Paint and saved it as a TIFF file to see if I could determine the actual resolution.  It looks to be 1940x1476.  I'm not sure what that works out to in dots per inch, because I don't know what the original page size was.  But in any case, some of the smaller type is very difficult to read (see for example No. 34 in the upper right-hand corner).

Anyway, please take this for what it's intended to be - a concrete example of an image I was initially really excited to see, but then found it disappointingly difficult to read. (I'm a bit of a nerd, and do like the fine print.)

Posts 26527
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 11 2016 2:14 PM

Don Awalt:
It is the stuff I 'complain' about here that gets so frustrating. 

You have a genuine problem with the freezes that Faithlife should address. I understand getting frustrated even to the point of taking a break from it - which is exactly what I would do although I wouldn't bother with the uninstall et. al. I found L2 and L3 so frustrating for their lack of handling the deuterocanonicals well that I took a multiyear break until Logos matured and I neared retirement. But it was worth coming back at least on a PC. Let me know when you're ready to give it another go.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 8967
RIP
Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 11 2016 2:26 PM

Q: So...what would make you buy more books from Logos?

A: more Mega-Bundles. more money to buy them with.

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 408
Mark Nolette | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 11 2016 3:32 PM

What would encourage me to buy more resources (besides more spending money)? 

I have invested in Logos/Verbum/FL since the 1990's in order to build up a resource library for Biblical studies and studies in Catholic teaching/tradition. Over the years, I've built up a decent library which has become very useful in many ways. There aren't many more resources that I really need. However, to answer the question I began with...

1) I would buy resources that would help me round out my "Catholic studies" collection, such as: a commentary on the 1983 Code of Canon Law, a commentary series on the Vatican II documents, and the New Jerome Biblical Commentary. (I've ordered the New Jerusalem Bible on pre-pub, BTW.)

2) I would buy individual books from some bundles, like the Classics of Western Spirituality or the Paulist Press Church Fathers collection. Or, better yet, let me design my own bundles and give me a discount for buying a group of resources at once. I don't really like "filler", even when it costs next to nothing. I only want what I'll actually use. 

3) I'd buy more resources as long as I can read them on e-ink as well as other devices. E-ink works better for long-term reading. Some people say that the iPad Pro is easier on the eyes than my iPad Air is. If that were the case, I'd consider upgrading and just using that. But, for now, e-ink works better for me.  

4) Most of what I want to do with Verbum, I actually do on my mobile apps (iPad and Android) on e-ink). Enhancing the mobile apps would also encourage me to buy more resources.  A few more improvements on mobile and I might not even need the desktop app! (Is that heresy?) Surprise

5) Beyond that, unless some "must-have" commentary came out, I'd be all set with what I have, and some of the stuff named above.  For now, anyway, while I finish paying for my last FL shopping spree...

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