So...what would make you buy more books from Logos?

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Posts 2835
Michael Childs | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 13 2016 7:21 AM

Tony Thomas:

MJ. Smith:

Tony Thomas:
The Logos program is too big and bloated.

Could you give some examples of what you consider to be "bloat"?

1. The fact that I have to load gigabytes worth of resources to be able to use the program. 

2. The length of time it takes to boot the program and begin working. It is sometimes minutes! 

3I . The need to run a complete index every time a resource is added or updated. 

4. Datasets that must be bought for complete upgrades even when many customers don't want/need them. 

Tony, I cannot disagree with a single one of your points. 

I only upgraded for the book packages that go along with upgrading to a new Logos upgrade.  There was not really any of the new features that interested me.  Part of that may be that I am just a grumpy old man, 40 plus years out of seminary, and I like the way I study now.  I certainly am not interested in having the program do more interpretive analysis of the text.   There is a point where the bells and whistles start to annoy me.

Having used Logos Bible Software for 20+ years now (whenever Bob bought the rights to CDWORD's library), I would have thought they would have made more progress on the issues you mention by now.

"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley

Posts 10630
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 13 2016 8:28 AM

I get the feeling, had the L7, collections (anyone remember??), or Christmas sale been really good, the Logos' challenges (ok, failings) would have remained under the rug another year.  My guess is that's how the L4-6 proceeded.

There seems to be bunches of Logosians presently/formerly in the computer arena, and no doubt have pondered these issues. Plus retail folks. I'd bet only small tinkering is feasible, due to 2 issues: the early choice of platform to replace MS (coding intensive), and an high-cost delivery archetecture (complete with on-PC indexing).

It's certainly pretty software. But each iteration (now, sped up by Now) translates to increased customer confusion, and frustration. People now searching for value.

I know people don't want to hear it, but Libby is snappy, I choose what's in her library. She's missing tons of datasets and I don't notice. She is a bit confusing. And her searches are eminently terrible ... though I suppose, if Accordance can do snappy searches, Libby could have to.  

I think I'd buy Libby's code, shift the platform, fix the search, and hook it up to the Logos library for purchase. Accordance on steroids.

"I didn't know God made honky tonk angels."

Posts 1062
EastTN | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 13 2016 9:11 AM

Denise:

... I know people don't want to hear it, but Libby is snappy, I choose what's in her library. She's missing tons of datasets and I don't notice. She is a bit confusing. And her searches are eminently terrible ...

Well, that's the challenge in designing any complex product.  Some folks need/want a snappy little convertible, some folks need/want a pickup truck, and some folks need/want a mini-van.  It's hard to make everyone happy with one product.  Sometimes it feels to me like Logos is building an atomic bulldozer of a Bible-study program.  The power is exhilarating, but learning to drive it can be a bear. 

Posts 10630
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 13 2016 9:42 AM

Excellent, EastTN. Atomic bulldozer!

"I didn't know God made honky tonk angels."

Posts 78
Rob | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 13 2016 10:03 AM

Thinking more globally, I would like to see FL really open up the Logos API and promote third party apps. That would be a real test of the value of Logos and the desirability of further investment by it's users.

Posts 1441
Rick Ausdahl | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 13 2016 10:33 AM

Rob:

Thinking more globally, I would like to see FL really open up the Logos API and promote third party apps. That would be a real test of the value of Logos and the desirability of further investment by it's users.

One of my primary concerns-one that is starting to affect my purchasing decisions--is along these lines.  I.e., when I first bought into Libronix, it was because the resources were advertised as using a new standardized format that I understood could be read by several Bible software companies that had agreed to use the format.

As it stands now, the only way I can access the thousands of resources in my library is via Logos, so if anything goes amuck there, I'm totally hosed.  I won't even be able to "read" the resources, let alone leverage them via a Bible software app.  I certainly wish the best for Faithlife in general and Logos in particular, but regarding purchases, I think I'm approaching a threshold in regard to how much I'm willing to invest on resources that have a proprietary format with no format conversion option.  Tongue Tied

Posts 1983
Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 13 2016 11:37 AM

Rick Ausdahl:

Rob:

Thinking more globally, I would like to see FL really open up the Logos API and promote third party apps. That would be a real test of the value of Logos and the desirability of further investment by it's users.

One of my primary concerns-one that is starting to affect my purchasing decisions--is along these lines.  I.e., when I first bought into Libronix, it was because the resources were advertised as using a new standardized format that I understood could be read by several Bible software companies that had agreed to use the format.

As it stands now, the only way I can access the thousands of resources in my library is via Logos, so if anything goes amuck there, I'm totally hosed.  I won't even be able to "read" the resources, let alone leverage them via a Bible software app.  I certainly wish the best for Faithlife in general and Logos in particular, but regarding purchases, I think I'm approaching a threshold in regard to how much I'm willing to invest on resources that have a proprietary format with no format conversion option.  Tongue Tied

This says it all.  Very well written.

Posts 15805
Forum MVP
Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 13 2016 11:56 AM

Rick Ausdahl:
As it stands now, the only way I can access the thousands of resources in my library is via Logos, so if anything goes amuck there, I'm totally hosed.

Thankful for many Logos features that work well without an Internet connection.  Personally have a MacBook Air with stable Logos, which is primarily used offline (periodically connect online for program and resource updates).

Caveat: if computers become unusable (lack of electricity or magnetic pulse), then all Bible software is afflicted,

Personally dreaming of "Gem" => Suggestion: "Gem" superset of Base Packages (along with God's calling in my life for work that glorifies Him so can pay for "Gem")

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 3482
Forum MVP
PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 13 2016 12:24 PM

Rick Ausdahl:

when I first bought into Libronix, it was because the resources were advertised as using a new standardized format that I understood could be read by several Bible software companies that had agreed to use the format.

I'd been dreaming of the day when you could buy a resource from any bible software company, and use it in your preferred program, and now I find out that day already came and went.

It's a shame that office programs can read a different manufacturer's word processing or spreadsheet documents, but bible study software won't.

(I'm happy with the Logos program, but would prefer to buy less expensive editions of a resource from other companies to use within Logos. High cost of resources, including PD works, really hinders what I can afford to buy.)

My top three Logos 9 Wishlist items: Carta, Dark mode, and Hebrew audio bible, please.

Posts 1983
Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 13 2016 1:43 PM

PetahChristian:
I'd been dreaming of the day when you could buy a resource from any bible software company, and use it in your preferred program, and now I find out that day already came and went.

This is the point of reference when a major change took place from L3 to L4.  It really stunned me after investing in a philosophy that I really felt was good (Libronix).  So many were left in shock that Bob eventually came out with the reasoning which seemed logical at least at the time.  Yet still disappointing.  That being said, the program as it stands in L7 is really wonderful.  But the let down that occurred with the change in L4 and other let downs since...I suppose if a book were to be written on the Faithlife story, at least from a customer standpoint, that change was THE big one. 

Posts 1578
Kenute P. Curry | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 13 2016 1:49 PM

Very well said Rick Ausdahl

Yes

Posts 8148
LogosEmployee

PetahChristian:

Rick Ausdahl:

when I first bought into Libronix, it was because the resources were advertised as using a new standardized format that I understood could be read by several Bible software companies that had agreed to use the format.

I'd been dreaming of the day when you could buy a resource from any bible software company, and use it in your preferred program, and now I find out that day already came and went.

It already came and went, but it wasn't Libronix. (Libronix books were never advertised as being usable within other software programs.)

The book format that could be used in multiple programs was STEP: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STEP_Library. It was never supported by Logos. 

Posts 1062
William Gabriel | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 13 2016 2:38 PM

Rick Ausdahl:

As it stands now, the only way I can access the thousands of resources in my library is via Logos, so if anything goes amuck there, I'm totally hosed.  I won't even be able to "read" the resources, let alone leverage them via a Bible software app.  I certainly wish the best for Faithlife in general and Logos in particular, but regarding purchases, I think I'm approaching a threshold in regard to how much I'm willing to invest on resources that have a proprietary format with no format conversion option.  Tongue Tied

If something ever happens to the company, I and others will work to reverse engineer the resource structure and encryption so that we can all free our resources. I don't do it now because I want to respect the license, but won't feel beholden to anyone if the company were to fold. I've taken a little peek, and the relatively easy part will be unlocking the encryption. The tougher part will be making use of the proprietary logos format. But we'll work to make sure nobody loses their investment.

Posts 1983
Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 13 2016 3:25 PM

Bradley Grainger (Faithlife):

It already came and went, but it wasn't Libronix. (Libronix books were never advertised as being usable within other software programs.)

The book format that could be used in multiple programs was STEP: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STEP_Library. It was never supported by Logos. 

STEP was one program.  But Libronix was another: http://www.libronix.com/page.aspx?id=techpartners0

Posts 1441
Rick Ausdahl | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 13 2016 3:41 PM

Bradley Grainger (Faithlife):

Rick Ausdahl:

when I first bought into Libronix, it was because the resources were advertised as using a new standardized format that I understood could be read by several Bible software companies that had agreed to use the format.

It already came and went, but it wasn't Libronix. (Libronix books were never advertised as being usable within other software programs.)

The book format that could be used in multiple programs was STEP: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STEP_Library. It was never supported by Logos. 

Bradley, thanks for commenting.

Yes, STEP does ring a bell!  Funny thing is, I only had one Bible software app before Libronix and if STEP was the standardized format in question, then that was the resource format used by my first Bible app.  The interesting thing (and probably the reason for my impression that Libronix was initially STEP compatible), is that when I called to investigate Libronix and told the sales person what I currently had, I was told I'd be able to see and use all my resources in Libronix.  Now to be sure, my library at the time was very small and the person I was speaking to knew what I had, so maybe the person phrased it the way he did simply because he knew the Libronix package I was looking at had all the resources in my current library and then some.  I was very new to Bible software at the time, and frankly, quite naive, so it didn't occur to me that I should press the issue.  I was told all my current resources would be there in Libronix and they were, so I thought all was well.  So I too was under the impression the move away from that "standardized" format happened after my purchase of Libronix.

Posts 4838
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 13 2016 4:17 PM

William Gabriel:
I can't help but feel like it's used as Base Package filler to justify the high prices.
 Idea

Posts 10630
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 13 2016 4:27 PM

William Gabriel:

If something ever happens to the company, I and others will work to reverse engineer the resource structure and encryption so that we can all free our resources. I don't do it now because I want to respect the license, but won't feel beholden to anyone if the company were to fold. I've taken a little peek, and the relatively easy part will be unlocking the encryption. The tougher part will be making use of the proprietary logos format. But we'll work to make sure nobody loses their investment.

William ... no need to unencrypt what you own .... it's written in modern english.  The idea one need not respect other's property seems to be a very recent theology, without benefit of the Divine.

"I didn't know God made honky tonk angels."

Posts 8148
LogosEmployee

Mark:

STEP was one program.  But Libronix was another: http://www.libronix.com/page.aspx?id=techpartners0

Libronix was sold as a technology platform to publishers, not to other Bible software companies. Resources produced in LBXLLS format were only readable in Libronix Digital Library System and its successor, Logos Bible Software 4 (now Logos 7).

It was not like STEP where you could buy an ebook from a publisher and open it in both QuickVerse and WORDSearch.

Posts 310
Bernhard | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 13 2016 5:00 PM

Mark:
STEP was one program.  But Libronix was another: http://www.libronix.com/page.aspx?id=techpartners0

The companies in that list produced books that could be read in the Libronix software, not the other way round. They did not produce their own software that could open Libronix modules. Not sure if some of them were using a re-branded version of Libronix? But still Libronix...

Posts 4838
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 13 2016 5:03 PM

Bradley Grainger (Faithlife):

Mark:

STEP was one program.  But Libronix was another: http://www.libronix.com/page.aspx?id=techpartners0

Libronix was sold as a technology platform to publishers, not to other Bible software companies. Resources produced in LBXLLS format were only readable in Libronix Digital Library System and its successor, Logos Bible Software 4 (now Logos 7).

It was not like STEP where you could buy an ebook from a publisher and open it in both QuickVerse and WORDSearch.

And for those who weren't around back in the day when this was discussed on the forum, there were often serious QC issues in the resources these publishers submitted to Logos. That is one reason why Logos/FL moved away from this approach.

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