So...what would make you buy more books from Logos?

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This post has 178 Replies | 8 Followers

Posts 521
Russ White | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 19 2016 6:18 PM

Ted Weis:
The CEO's presence on this forum shows that the company listens. Compare FL to Zondervan, IVP, etc. FL looks better IMHO.

Except the CEO is the primary person who doesn't listen, IMHO.

Ted Weis:
It looks to me like prices have gone up

I can most often find the same books I find on Logos in Kindle format for at least a little less, and often much less. For anything that is public domain, I can find it for free. I know there is tagging in there, but good search is often better than tagging. 

When Logos becomes a good value again, and focuses on what they do well, then I will be an enthusiastic supporter. Right now I honestly don't think buying resources from Logos offers a good trade in value, versus what I spend, so I've learned to focus on other sources.

Russ

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 19 2016 6:19 PM

Russ White:
2. A way to actually make Logos work with outside note taking software, such as OneNote, without needing to go through hoops to make it work. In fact, this would be preferable to Logos continuing to try to be all things to all people. Give up, and cede the note taking market to applications that actually do a good job at it.

Given the maintenance cost of each external linkage, I would be very unhappy if Faithlife took this approach. And as a personal preference, I would dislike having to use an additional unintegrated software. Which is not to say that the current notes are great, but they are workable if you put some effort into figuring out how to integrate them into your workflow which itself may need some modifications.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 1328
Ben | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 19 2016 6:24 PM

More money in the bank account, more sales on the books I want, and more availablility of the books I want (Carta, etc.)

"The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected."- G.K. Chesterton

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 19 2016 9:14 PM

Russ White:

Ted Weis:
The CEO's presence on this forum shows that the company listens. Compare FL to Zondervan, IVP, etc. FL looks better IMHO.

Except the CEO is the primary person who doesn't listen, IMHO.

To avoid sending sensitive stuff to Faithlife servers, can use two installations: e.g. Logos & Verbum. One installation has Use Internet set to Yes, which is used for library and programs updates plus can access Online Only features: e.g. fuzzy bible search. The other installation has Use Internet set to No that can use scan command to copy library updates from online installation (may need to manually copy contents of one folder from online to offline so scan copies licensed library resources). The offline installation can keep sensitive stuff locally since nothing is sync'd/sent to Faithlife servers.

Thankful for many Logos and Verbum features that work offline.

Thankful for visual filter highlighting that combines hundreds of search results for simultaneous display (so can prayerfully ponder what had  been written).

Ben:

More money in the bank account, more sales on the books I want, and more availablility of the books I want (Carta, etc.)

+1 Yes especially for more money in bank account.  Thankful for Logos 7 libraries (currently dreaming).

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 2817
Michael Childs | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 20 2016 7:21 AM

Ted Weis:
The CEO's presence on this forum shows that the company listens. Compare FL to Zondervan, IVP, etc. FL looks better IMHO.

Except the CEO is the primary person who doesn't listen, IMHO.

Ted Weis:

We all have a right to our own "most humble opinion". 

However, I just do not agree with the accusation that Bod does not listen.  Bob does listen.  He may not do what you and I want Him to do in every case, but that is because he is CEO and we are not.  No business could survive doing what every customer wanted in every case.

I think it is incredible that Bod spends the time he does on these boards listening to customers.   I suspect that he listens more than he gives answers, especially when the answer the customer wants is impossible.  But I know of no other CEO in any comparable business that is as responsive to customers as the CEO of Faithlife / Logos. 

Just my opinion, but it is based on more than 20 years of doing business with Faithlife / Logos.  He has in the past responded to several of my suggestions / requests with an open mind.  True, there are times that he did not agree with my most wise unsolicited  counsel, but that is to be expected.  

"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley

Posts 9915
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 20 2016 7:59 AM

I doubt participation in a forum (that you paid for, and stocked with selected yes-people) is a special metric for 'listening'. Having spent much grief time in executive duties, sitting and chatting with customers is one of the more enjoyable aspects ... especially when they're giving you an earful. Indeed, managers 'below' always sigh, with the boss's return from customer chit-chats .... more work and creative excuses.

Unique to Bob is the electronic platform that can be scrolled back for 'promises'.  Ergo, the feeling of listening, or not.


Posts 521
Russ White | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 21 2016 12:28 PM

MJ. Smith:
Given the maintenance cost of each external linkage, I would be very unhappy if Faithlife took this approach. And as a personal preference, I would dislike having to use an additional unintegrated software. Which is not to say that the current notes are great, but they are workable if you put some effort into figuring out how to integrate them into your workflow which itself may need some modifications.

Can you scope the amount of work you're thinking this would be? It seems, to me, this would be a LOT less work than trying to build a completely new note processing package, which is what Logos is doing in a half-hearted sort of way. The basic question is this -- is it worth Faithlife's time to bring coders on board to rebuild OneNote or Evernote, for instance?

Second point -- the problem of using "unintegrated software" runs in both directions. I use OneNote for everything else, including taking notes in online versions of journals and other research materials not available in Logos, building paper outlines, keeping track of tasks that need to be done to complete a paper, building class outlines, etc. Sure, I could do all of this in Logos, hence making Logos my one resource for tracking my entire life, but this seems backwards to me -- Logos doesn't pretend to be a general organizational and writing software package, nor have I heard of any plans to make it such. In other words, I either must integrate my life around the way Logos works, or I must integrate Logos into the way I already do research. 

At this point, Logos half-heartedly allows one, has no apparent plans to replace OneNote on all my devices, and does not allow the other. Given the situation, integrating Logos into my daily workflow is a better solution than modifying my entire workflow around Logos.

Russ

Posts 521
Russ White | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 21 2016 12:37 PM

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):
To avoid sending sensitive stuff to Faithlife servers, can use two installations: e.g. Logos & Verbum. One installation has Use Internet set to Yes, which is used for library and programs updates plus can access Online Only features: e.g. fuzzy bible search. The other installation has Use Internet set to No that can use scan command to copy library updates from online installation (may need to manually copy contents of one folder from online to offline so scan copies licensed library resources). The offline installation can keep sensitive stuff locally since nothing is sync'd/sent to Faithlife servers.

So you have two installs, which must be configured in a specific way, to prevent your data from being sent to their servers. Funny how OneNote, Evernote, Dropbox, SpiderOak, Box, and many others all allow you to selectively synchronize data, and/or to encrypt data before it's sent, etc., but Logos requires you, the user, to jump through a ton of hoops to get anything close to the same impact.

This is a hack, not a solution.

Russ

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 21 2016 1:09 PM

Russ White:
The basic question is shit -- is it worth Faithlife's time to bring coders on board to rebuild OneNote or Evernote, for instance?

No, and those are not examples of my expectations of an in-app note system.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 259
scooter | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 21 2016 1:46 PM

Tony Thomas:

Lower prices?  Better libraries and bundles?  More frequent sales?  Just curious.  

1.   Pre-pubs that are => 40 % off FL regular price.  6 % off is grossly deficient.

2.   Break those collections on down.  I just don't buy collections - they contain unnecessary material.

3.  Great sales.

4.   Remove the video from Mobile Ed. + sell 'em for 1/5 the price.  I own one + when going thru it, I will read, then highlight as needed, never looking at the live human.  Or have 2 set-ups:  vid in, vid out.

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 21 2016 2:08 PM

Russ White:
So you have two installs, which must be configured in a specific way, to prevent your data from being sent to their servers.

Actually have several computers with my library in Logos and Verbum (does use many GB's of storage). Thankful can use Logos and Verbum at the same time on one computer so can have Library and Collections open in each one (quite useful when modifying collection rules).

Thankful can download library updates from Faithlife servers to one installation followed by using scan command in other installations over my local area network, which takes significantly less time.

Thankful for Logos on a MacBook Air (MBA) that is used offline several times every week.

Russ White:
This is a hack, not a solution.

"Hack" is one way to describe an innovative alternative to keep sensitive data locally, which can be maintained with program and library updates.

Russ White:
... many others all allow you to selectively synchronize data, and/or to encrypt data before it's sent, etc.,

Edit: diagnostic log files show sync to Faithlife servers uses https protocol. Faithlife web sites use https for encrypted communication to your browser, which is a change from years ago when unencrypted http was used.

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 521
Russ White | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 21 2016 6:49 PM

MJ. Smith:
No, and those are not examples of my expectations of an in-app note system.

So again -- either I integrate my life with Logos, or I integrate Logos with my life. I don't think it's really all that unreasonable to ask Logos to integrate with my life, rather than the other way around. So -- I don't agree -- making Logos integrate with other packages would not be "too difficult to maintain," or the like. It would greatly enhance the functionality and usefulness of the software.

There are two things that keep me away from these forums. First is the fan boy club here. Second is the constant insistence that Logos not add anything that would be useful to anyone, because "I don't want it." I've yet to hear a valid reason to not add functionality.

Russ

Posts 2942
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 21 2016 6:58 PM

Russ White:
I've yet to hear a valid reason to not add functionality.

Offhand, and as general principles, most or all of which don't apply meaningfully to this particular case:

1. Cost of maintaining it.

2. Increased download size(s).

3. Increased end-user complexity.

4. Slowing down the program / increased computer resource use / increased minimum specs.

5. Diversion of in-house resources from higher-priority projects.

6. Not being able to execute the functionality sufficiently well to achieve customer needs/desires or otherwise to cause customers to use it.

7. Increased server costs.

8. Risk of a lawsuit.

9. Expectations of adding some form of the functionality to the mobile apps, for which the above principles tend to apply more strongly.

Not that I've written anything above that I expect you don't already know.

Posts 521
Russ White | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 21 2016 6:59 PM

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):
Actually have several computers with my library in Logos and Verbum (does use many GB's of storage).

Which means "I don't mind spending a lot of money to solve a problem Faithlife should have solved long ago, and most other software that functions in a similar way has already solved." I have precisely one computer, and it doesn't have many gigabytes of available space to solve Logos' problems.

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):
"Hack" is one way to describe an innovative alternative to keep sensitive data locally,

No, it's a hack, plain and simple. I've been in the world of IT for going on 40 years at this point, and I recognize a hack when I see one. Innovation is taking the hack and making it into a product, or integrating it into the hacked product. What's wrong is when a company sees people doing hacks like this, and then refusing to listen, or resolve the issue.

Again -- to return to the original thread: "what would it take for you to spend more money on Logos?" One answer: when I don't have to spend money on several gigabytes of storage across multiple computers so I can keep my information off the Logos cloud, where it is not encrypted, or when Logos integrates with systems that are more useful than internal notes will ever be in a way that makes it a more useful product. 

When I can stop spending money on all this hardware, maybe I'll have more to spend on Logos. When I can spend less time flipping back and forth between various software packages because Faithlife refuses to do the right thing in terms of integration with other software packages, perhaps I'll have more time to look through the product catalog and spend a little more money.

The OP asked, I've given an answer. I'm sorry you don't like my answer(s). As always, y'all have successfully chased me off the forums -- great job, fan boys.

Russ

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 21 2016 7:04 PM

Russ White:
First is the fan boy club here.

I must have missed that. Where can I sign up?Big Smile

Merry Christmas, Russ!

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 521
Russ White | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 21 2016 7:12 PM

SineNomine:
Offhand, and as general principles, most or all of which don't apply meaningfully to this particular case:

To the contrary, (2/4/7) if Logos integrated better, there would be no notes files to synchronize, hence the synchronization time (for those who choose to use those features!) would be much less. Server costs would actually be less, as would the risk of any lawsuits (8/the current Faithlife posture is actually a large attack vector against the company's very existence, no matter how much they bury their head in the sand). For (3), Faithlife needs to stop treating their users like babies. 

As for (5) -- Faithlife could have completed development of the required features in the same amount of time they, and other folks on this forum, have spent justifying their failure to actually implement anything.

Russ

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 21 2016 11:17 PM

Russ White:

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):
Actually have several computers with my library in Logos and Verbum (does use many GB's of storage).

Which means "I don't mind spending a lot of money to solve a problem Faithlife should have solved long ago, and most other software that functions in a similar way has already solved." I have precisely one computer, and it doesn't have many gigabytes of available space to solve Logos' problems.

Apologies since "meaning" misses my mark; more than one computer provides backup for hardware failure (have experienced a few). Having more than one computer has been useful for replicating Logos user interface differences on Windows and OS X.

Different people choose number of device(s) for their Logos library. My "newest" computer is a 2014 model. Thankful for a pair of internal 256 GB SATA III Solid State Disks (SSD) that revitalized a 2009 model laptop with Intel Core2Duo P8400 CPU

Newegg currently has a 256 GB SSD for $ 79.99 => http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820211864 

512 GB SSD is $ 149.99 => http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820211881

Considering hundreds of collections in my library plus many visual filters, am Thankful and impressed by Logos 7 and Verbum 7 on older hardware with SSD's.

Russ White:
One answer: when I don't have to spend money on several gigabytes of storage across multiple computers so I can keep my information off the Logos cloud, where it is not encrypted, or when Logos integrates with systems that are more useful than internal notes will ever be in a way that makes it a more useful product. 

Thankful for your insights. For Faithlife cloud storage, this volunteer user does not know if encrypted or not. Thankful for my library having my documents without any surprise appearance from anyone else. Thankful can freely publish documents for sharing plus can copy ones that have been published.

Apologies since usually do not have any Notes open. My favorite Logos and Verbum feature is visual filter highlighting that has a couple dozen open daily.

Currently the # 1 Logos User Voice Suggestion has 958 Votes => Import/Export notes to/from Evernote.

Searching Logos User Voice for integration suggestions found: 

Also noticed 14 votes => Incorporate Logos Now into the Logos software we already pay for

For me to purchase more from Faithlife, my financial situation needs modification so currently only dreaming of => Suggestion: "Gem" superset of Base Packages

By the way, 2 Jul 2016 article Full disk encryption easily broken on tens of millions of Android devices and 19 Dec 2016 macOS 10.12.2 fixed vulnerability that allowed Thunderbolt device to obtain password from locked Mac illustrate technical complexity of implementing encryption well. Thankful for migration of Faithlife web sites to secure communication plus hoping smart people implement encryption well.

Keep Smiling Smile

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Mike Binks | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 22 2016 1:35 AM

Tony Thomas:

Lower prices?  Better libraries and bundles?  More frequent sales?  Just curious.  

Tony 

I recall the famous prayer...

'Lord, Make me the sort of person that you could trust to win the Lottery! Amen'

Posts 298
Vincent Chia | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 22 2016 1:39 AM

scooter:

Tony Thomas:

Lower prices?  Better libraries and bundles?  More frequent sales?  Just curious.  

1.   Pre-pubs that are => 40 % off FL regular price.  6 % off is grossly deficient.

2.   Break those collections on down.  I just don't buy collections - they contain unnecessary material.

3.  Great sales.

4.   Remove the video from Mobile Ed. + sell 'em for 1/5 the price.  I own one + when going thru it, I will read, then highlight as needed, never looking at the live human.  Or have 2 set-ups:  vid in, vid out.

Point 4: which is why i hardly purchase mobile ed now, unless they appear in CP ... but now they almost never appear in CP.

I do not need the videos, and Mobile Eds are priced exorbitantly with the videos even in Pre pub. I basically need the basic notes/text, which shouldn't cost much as they link to books i already own.

Hence i do not see why I should pay $399.99 for Judges Mobile Ed on Pre pub, where the same money could be spent purchasing 10 commentaries on Judges in print.

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 29 2016 10:34 AM

Vincent Chia:

scooter:

4.   Remove the video from Mobile Ed. + sell 'em for 1/5 the price.  I own one + when going thru it, I will read, then highlight as needed, never looking at the live human.  Or have 2 set-ups:  vid in, vid out.

Point 4: which is why i hardly purchase mobile ed now, unless they appear in CP ... but now they almost never appear in CP.

 

I do not need the videos, and Mobile Eds are priced exorbitantly with the videos even in Pre pub. I basically need the basic notes/text, which shouldn't cost much as they link to books i already own.

 

Hence i do not see why I should pay $399.99 for Judges Mobile Ed on Pre pub, where the same money could be spent purchasing 10 commentaries on Judges in print.

Dreaming of Mobile Ed transcript bundles. My preferred learning method is reading (visual). Transcripts have text that can be searched plus additional links to open other resources. For learning language, videos pronounce words.

Dreaming of a Hebrew audio complement to Greek Audio New Testament Also would like Latin and LXX audio.

 

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):
For Faithlife cloud storage, this volunteer user does not know if encrypted or not. Thankful for my library having my documents without any surprise appearance from anyone else. Thankful can freely publish documents for sharing plus can copy ones that have been published.

Thankful for Faithlife replies in thread => Multi Factor Authentication 

Bradley Grainger (Faithlife):

Francis:
The credit card information is only stored on their website, not our devices.

It's not even stored on our website: when you enter a credit card number into logos.com, it's immediately transmitted to a secure, third-party payment management company, then immediately deleted from our systems. (So even if logos.com was hacked, your payment information would never be exposed.)

Thankful for industry best practices being implemented and audited (checked)

Bradley Grainger (Faithlife):

Don Awalt:
Great to know, thanks Bradley! What about personal information like addresses, phone numbers, email?

This is stored on our servers (as are documents, settings, and other sync data). These databases are protected by industry best practices for technical and physical security, regularly audited by a third-party, etc.

Keep Smiling Smile

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