So...what would make you buy more books from Logos?

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This post has 178 Replies | 8 Followers

Posts 3024
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 29 2016 2:28 PM

Russ White:

SineNomine:
Offhand, and as general principles, most or all of which don't apply meaningfully to this particular case:

To the contrary, (2/4/7) if Logos integrated better, there would be no notes files to synchronize, hence the synchronization time (for those who choose to use those features!) would be much less. Server costs would actually be less, as would the risk of any lawsuits (8/the current Faithlife posture is actually a large attack vector against the company's very existence, no matter how much they bury their head in the sand).

As I noted and you quoted, most of the reasons for non-development that I listed don't apply to this particular case.

Russ White:
For (3), Faithlife needs to stop treating their users like babies. 

I would say both that, generally speaking, FL tries not to "treat their users like babies", and that some of their users act (at least intermittently) meaningfully younger than they are. But such is life.

Posts 2811
Doc B | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 29 2016 9:01 PM

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):
Thankful for industry best practices being implemented

Technically, that's not a 'best practice,' it is an industry standard, required by law (PCI). The third-party PMCs are making a killing off the rules, though, I don't see a better way to do it given the size and resources of those who are trying to steal the data (i.e., your money).

My thanks to the various MVPs. Without them Logos would have died early. They were the only real help available.

Faithlife Corp. owes the MVPs free resources for life.

Posts 18651
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 30 2016 12:34 AM

Half the time when I go looking on logos.com or vyrso.com for a theological book that I've come across in my meanderings online, they don't have it, but it's available in Kindle. I click "Buy now with 1-click" and I'm off to the races. And then when I look at all the other interesting related books that Amazon suggests to me, I discover MORE books that I buy on impulse too. And these are from major Christian publishing houses that Logos already has tons of books from (IVP, Baker, Brazos, Abingdon, etc.) I seriously am that impulsive a buyer, and if more great books were available in Logos as one-offs with Kindle-like prices (or close) I would buy more.

Here's a good example of what I'm talking about. The first random book that came to my mind, Knowing God by J.I. Packer, is available in Kindle now but hasn't been in Logos for years.

I often spend time just browsing around through Amazon's catalog by clicking on related books to one I'm searching for and then following the rabbit trails from there. I can usually in a matter of about a half an hour draw up a list of 10-30 highly rated theological books by powerhouse authors from reputable publishers that Logos doesn't have. I used to regularly make up wishlists of such books, but I gave up because it's a never-ending battle. Logos should have someone full-time making up lists like this, and they should go after them all to fill out their catalogue.

Here are some examples of these book suggestion lists I used to post regularly:

https://community.logos.com/forums/t/98668.aspx

https://community.logos.com/forums/t/98766.aspx

http://community.logos.com/forums/t/97784.aspx

https://community.logos.com/forums/t/98878.aspx 

https://community.logos.com/forums/t/12197.aspx

http://community.logos.com/forums/t/70968.aspx

http://community.logos.com/forums/t/12082.aspx

https://community.logos.com/forums/t/79803.aspx

https://community.logos.com/forums/t/13916.aspx

https://community.logos.com/forums/p/48793/361387.aspx#361387 

https://community.logos.com/forums/p/71688/499100.aspx#499100

https://community.logos.com/forums/t/52995.aspx

https://community.logos.com/forums/p/102193/706890.aspx#706890

https://community.logos.com/forums/t/9012.aspx

https://community.logos.com/forums/t/94765.aspx

https://community.logos.com/forums/t/106915.aspx

https://community.logos.com/forums/p/85523/599325.aspx#599325

https://community.logos.com/forums/p/9193/576358.aspx#576358

https://community.logos.com/forums/t/28448.aspx

http://community.logos.com/forums/t/84022.aspx

https://community.logos.com/forums/t/73032.aspx

https://community.logos.com/forums/t/79779.aspx

https://community.logos.com/forums/t/97783.aspx

To my knowledge, most of these have still not seen the light of day in Logos.

Posts 8898
Forum MVP
Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 30 2016 5:10 AM

Rosie Perera:
To my knowledge, most of these have still not seen the light of day in Logos.

Wow, listing all those threads is a powerful reminder.

Rosie Perera:
Here's a good example of what I'm talking about. The first random book that came to my mind, Knowing God by J.I. Packer, is available in Kindle now but hasn't been in Logos for years.

This book often comes to my mind. So far I have been patient and not purchased much from Kindle. But the longer Logos goes without addressing books like these the harder it is to wait. What's a person to do?

And then there is the ongoing discussion of Carta books that seem to have little hope of ever being in Logos....

Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God

Posts 10120
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 30 2016 6:46 AM

Russ White:
For (3), Faithlife needs to stop treating their users like babies. 

If memory serves, L4 didn't have notes when intro'd. And it was Bob that argued repeatedly, that external note software was the better route. And presumably the 'babies' insisted  ... I've always thought pastors should minimally be expert in computers, software, encryption, etc with maybe some Bible on the side.

I've always kept notes outside ... having Logos support for a preferred notes app would do nothing, since I use several Bible packages.


Posts 4761
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 30 2016 10:32 AM

I have resisted making any comments regarding the Notes conversation on this thread until now, because the main reason I still use L3 is the beautiful and ingenious (aka serendipitously lucky) way it handles notes. I have just committed myself to accepting increasing isolation in that regard. However, my difficulty in getting my new computer system to support L3 adequately led a friend to suggest that I may have to bite the bullet at some point and move over to L>3, like it or not. Though I despise that notion to its core, I am at least contemplating what that would look like.

One thing I can say for sure is that the idea of external notes is one big fat STINK BOMB. I don't know how others use Notes, but my notes MUST BE part of my Bible. My notes are almost entirely wedged into the precise point in my NASB where that information is relevant. As I've said many times before, the notion of "presentation software" is utterly redundant in my view, since L3 IS PRESENTATION SOFTWARE. Bob didn't recognize that when he put it together (that is what I mean by "serendipitous" above--he called the way I use L3 "creatively novel"). And L>3 certainly isn't geared anywhere close to being as useful in that regard. But the ONLY thing that makes my possible migration to L>3 conceivable is INTERNAL NOTES.

Nothing that OneNote or EverNote can do replicates this...

In L3, every one of these note icons is capable of bringing up a complete screenful of pertinent and highly useful information, Johnny-on-the-Spot.

Here is an example:

This is a NOTE from L3...and you can't replicate this in L6, L7, nor any subsequent version either, because there is no will to do so. But this screen can be filled pretty much with anything text based, regardless of language, including fully formatted interlinear passages...and all it takes to access this info is a simple HOVER. My Bible study presentations are POWERFUL because of this instantaneous flood of information. L>3 in this regard? Not even remotely close. So much for progress.

Without a satisfactory replacement, I wouldn't take a million dollars for L3. Even so, with L>3's paltry stand-in for Notes, I might be able to muddle through if I had no other options. Having to use EverNote or OneNote would constitute catastrophic disaster. It's hard to overemphasize how important my notes are and how important it is to have them IN MY BIBLE.

Therefore, consider this my vote against the noxious notion of removing Notes from Logos.

Posts 1937
Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 30 2016 12:17 PM

Denise:
I've always kept notes outside

Learned this lesson long ago.  Keep personal notes separate from software. 

Posts 1048
William Gabriel | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 30 2016 12:18 PM

David Paul:

Having to use EverNote or OneNote would constitute catastrophic disaster. It's hard to overemphasize how important my notes are and how important it is to have them IN MY BIBLE.

Therefore, consider this my vote against the noxious notion of removing Notes from Logos.

These implementations need not be mutually exclusive. There are multiple layers to note taking software, from the back end syncing, to the input model to the presentation layer. You could implement something like an Evernote core and still have the same bible integration you want. I think most of us like the way our notes and highlights format our books, but I also think most of us despise note input and management. 

Posts 18651
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 30 2016 1:13 PM

Bruce Dunning:
So far I have been patient and not purchased much from Kindle. But the longer Logos goes without addressing books like these the harder it is to wait.

That used to be my firm policy, but I gave it up a couple of years ago. Kindle now even has collections to help organize your books there (though they don't have searching across multiple books; Logos is far ahead of them in search). I now have 139 books in my Theology collection in Kindle. I would have bought these all in Logos if I could have.

Posts 776
JRS | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 30 2016 2:06 PM

Insofar as "... what would make me buy more books from Logos?" - probably not much.  

I have what I consider to be an adequate library for my needs.  It reflects much of what I have come to believe and understand with just a sprinkling of the heretical to add spice.  Many books are not much more than rehashes of other people's thoughts with minimal, genuinely new material - I have little need or desire for those tomes.  Or, they are bubbling fountains of buzzwords and buzzideas - always trying to be the next big thing - yawn.  And, of course, there are the categories that I just have no desire to read, own, much less purchase [I dare not to list them lest the hypersensitive combust into self-righteous, indignant flames].  Only on rare occasions do I sit up and take notice of a title that is an absolute 'must have'. 

-------------------

As an aside, I do find the Notes discussion in the last few pages of this thread rather interesting.  My note taking is far more along the lines of what Bob originally intended, i.e., analogous to the simple notes one might pencil into the margin of a paper bible.  All I want is a few words to jog my memory here and there, on this and on that, plus a place to record my own cogitations from under the fig tree.  The addition of tags and labels are a plus, but I need not much more.

And yet, I can fully understand the needs/wants of, say, Russ, et al., for a more robust note capability.

It has always been my contention that FL/Logos is trying too hard to write 'one program to rule them all' [apol. to Tolkien].  IMO, the Logos ground floor should be a very simple, basic program with kindergarten research and note-taking capabilities, combined with a minimal/basic resource collection(s).  Then, by the addition of more complex modules and resources, one works his/her way to the scholarly pinnacles of a Languages program, or a Preaching program, or a Classics program, etc..  

But, hey, what do I know?

How blessed is the one whom Thou dost choose, and bring near to Thee(Psa 65:4a)

Posts 8898
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Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 30 2016 4:00 PM

Rosie Perera:
Kindle now even has collections to help organize your books there (though they don't have searching across multiple books; Logos is far ahead of them in search). I now have 139 books in my Theology collection in Kindle. I would have bought these all in Logos if I could have.

Wow, you are slipping to the dark side. Wink I'm still holding strong as an optimist but...Tongue Tied

Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God

Posts 13348
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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 31 2016 2:06 AM

Rosie Perera:
I now have 139 books in my Theology collection in Kindle. I would have bought these all in Logos if I could have.

The big difference between my Logos and Kindle spending habits is that I generally only purchase Kindle books that I know I'm definitely going to read through. In Logos, I'm more likely to buy resources 'just in case', as I know they'll surface in guides and searches.

In 2016, I read nine books on Kindle, all of which I would prefer to have read in Logos...

  1. Praying the Bible
  2. The Way of the Righteous in the Muck of Life: Psalms 1-12
  3. The Heart Is the Target: Preaching Practical Application from Every Text
  4. Searching for Jesus: New Discoveries in the Quest for Jesus of Nazareth
  5. The Great Christ Comet: Revealing the True Star of Bethlehem
  6. Evangelistic Preaching
  7. A History of Christianity: The First Three Thousand Years
  8. How to Walk Into Church
  9. The Pastor's Justification

(Some of these might be in Logos/Vyrso now, but they weren't when I purchased them.)

Posts 521
Russ White | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 31 2016 6:25 AM

David Paul:
Nothing that OneNote or EverNote can do replicates this... In L3, every one of these note icons is capable of bringing up a complete screenful of pertinent and highly useful information, Johnny-on-the-Spot.

With proper integration, they could. That's the point I've been trying to get to/make, but Faithlife doesn't see the value, so it won't ever happen.

Russ

Posts 1577
Kenute P. Curry | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 31 2016 6:53 AM

Hi Mark Barnes:

" The Great Christ Comet" is in VYRSO at $22.00.

https://vyrso.com/product/55216/the-great-christ-comet-revealing-the-true-star-of-bethlehem

But being at 368 pages, this should have been a Full-blown LOGOS EDITION. This is a book that I also wanted to read as well, but I am very cautious at buying books in VYRSO these days, due to the lack of quality control by FAITHLIFE.

Posts 3024
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 31 2016 6:56 AM

Russ White:

David Paul:
Nothing that OneNote or EverNote can do replicates this... In L3, every one of these note icons is capable of bringing up a complete screenful of pertinent and highly useful information, Johnny-on-the-Spot.

With proper integration, they could. That's the point I've been trying to get to/make, but Faithlife doesn't see the value, so it won't ever happen.

Russ

Can you point to one or more other programs/apps that are integrated with OneNote and/or EverNote in which you can do essentially what David Paul is describing?

Posts 2811
Doc B | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 31 2016 10:11 AM

Rosie Perera:
I now have 139 books in my Theology collection in Kindle. I would have bought these all in Logos if I could have.

I have just under 200, and the saddest (happiest) part is, with only three or four exceptions, I paid less than $3 for any of them. When the Kindle was first being pushed, there were a LOT of giveaways and huge discounts. I took advantage of all I could, and now have these, plus several hundred nonfiction and history books on my Kindle. Of the almost 600 books there, I have paid a total of about $160.

This will likely never be possible in Logos, so I continue to grab Kindle deals when they happen (which is much less often, these days).

Oh, and on the last sentence in Rosie's post- I have been able to get about five of them in Logos. Mostly because of unavailability, but probably 20% are available but too expensive. I don't mind doubling up when the book is very inexpensive on one of the platforms. But I will almost never pay $50+ for a book in Logos that I got for $3 or less on Kindle.

My thanks to the various MVPs. Without them Logos would have died early. They were the only real help available.

Faithlife Corp. owes the MVPs free resources for life.

Posts 15805
Forum MVP
Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 31 2016 11:54 AM

David Paul:
In L3, every one of these note icons is capable of bringing up a complete screenful of pertinent and highly useful information ... But this screen can be filled pretty much with anything text based, regardless of language, including fully formatted interlinear passages..

Concur Logos 7 and Verbum 7 limit the size of Note pop-up:

Also noted that copying interlinear passage of Genesis 1:1-5 from LHI with paste into Notes has very different appearance. Lemma, Transliteration lines, and Morphology are missing. Notes has Lexical Value and Literal English Translation lines while Inline Interlinear only had translation displayed.

"Work around" for full screen is opening Bible and Note file(s) in tabs within a full screen panel so click on Note indicator switches focus to Note file (brings that tab to the front). Click on Bible tab to change focus back to the Bible. Caveat: "work around" is two more mouse clicks than hover to show content. A setting to allow larger note pop-up would be appreciated.

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 52
Eduardo Espiritu | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 1 2017 1:59 PM

A tough choice for me is buying electronic versions of books I already own. The value is, then, not the content of the book. It is the ease of reference and integration with search tools and the ease of cut and paste to write papers and make notes. For example, I gladly bought the Harpercollins Bible Dictionary because it was an newer edition than what I owned and was well integrated as a dictionary resource within Verbum environment. 

Some of the books I already owned were part of the base package that I purchased or upgraded to.  Books I do use are unavailable such as Brown, New Jerome Biblical Commentary. 

Textbooks or reference books recommended for courses I am takI got that i don't already own I buy based on value In the electronic environment and content, an easier decision. 

Posts 521
Russ White | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 3 2017 6:22 PM

SineNomine:
Can you point to one or more other programs/apps that are integrated with OneNote and/or EverNote in which you can do essentially what David Paul is describing?

Yes and No -- Outlook and Word can integrate in some similar ways, as can several rss readers and web browsers. All of these have components of what is needed here, but not the whole thing. OTOH -- I can describe precisely how it could be done. I can even do this manually today, but it takes too many copy/paste cycles, and pressing too many buttons. Once you figure out how to do it without streamlined tools, you can figure out what tools are needed to make it really work.

The problem is not the ability to do this -- it is that Faithlife sees no value in doing it.

Russ

Posts 548
Brent Hoefling | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 10 2017 2:46 PM

Mark Barnes:

The big difference between my Logos and Kindle spending habits is that I generally only purchase Kindle books that I know I'm definitely going to read through. In Logos, I'm more likely to buy resources 'just in case', as I know they'll surface in guides and searches.

egg
zact
lee

:) hay, just agreeing.

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