Poor Standards applied to Carson Sermon Library

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Posts 4829
DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Posted: Tue, Dec 20 2016 2:00 PM

Glad to finally have the Carson Sermon Library in Logos but the standard of what has been delivered is poor.

The sermons are arranged in what can only be described and an adhoc order. To make follow through a series you have to go to the end of the resources to the Sermons by Series Index and when you do that there are problems.  The person who built this clearly was not thinking as someone who might actually want to use this resources.  For sermons which are simply titled by the passage references, as in these Psalms examples, rather than taking you to the transcript of the sermon, clicking on the hyperlink takes you to your highest priority bible.

The index...

and where the links to sermons titled with a bible reference take you, eg. Ps 2 - not to the sermon transcript but to your bible.

The index by reference also has the same faults.

Once again great to have the media files that were availble to be included in the library but...they too are arranged in an ad hoc order, that doesn't even match the arrangement in the transcript resource and to make it worse there is not index a the end of the resource organising the media files by series or reference. But there is more, there is not link between the transcripts and media files so you can not open up a transcript and click on a link to go to the related media file if it is available and neither can you be working from a media file and click on a link to go to the associated transcript file because the link is missing.

Another project pushed out the door by Faithlife with a clear lack of thought about how users are going to use it and without some basic quality control checks - and on a resource we pay to have quality control done before purchasing - but Faithlife seem to think its acceptable to push substandard stuff out the door and then fix up the problems that customers complain about the loudest after the fact.

Thank you Faithlife for making this available.  It would be great it you can fix up some of these problems early in the new year with this resource.

Posts 6153
DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 20 2016 2:56 PM

 And here I was criticizing wordsearch for being sloppy in the way they put together the Adrian Rogers sermons. FL  has done worse with DA Carson's sermons.   Like you said doc I hope FL fixes this sometime early this coming year.  Over all, at least we have access to the manuscripts and media. 

DAL

Posts 7919
LogosEmployee

Disciple of Christ (doc):
 For sermons which are simply titled by the passage references, as in these Psalms examples, rather than taking you to the transcript of the sermon, clicking on the hyperlink takes you to your highest priority bible.

I've reported this problem.

As far as I can tell, it affects about a dozen sermon titles in the (two) sermon indices; is that correct?

Posts 914
LogosEmployee
Kyle G. Anderson | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 20 2016 3:43 PM

There will be a few things we can do.

  1. We'll be able to re-order to some of the sermons to facilitate better grouping.
  2. The entire index is already linked to the sermon. The only issue is the dozen sermons whose sermon title equals a Bible reference. This can be solved by removing the Bible references for the entire index. Normally I would be opposed to this but am fine with it in this scenario. The indicies are used primarily for navigation to the sermon.
  3. There was a misunderstanding in the production spec. There should be a link from the text to the media.
  4. Although videos are typically meant to be a supplemental target resource, I can see what I can do to re-order the videos.
Posts 4829
DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 20 2016 4:51 PM

Thank you Kyle for looking into the issues.

Kyle G. Anderson:

There will be a few things we can do.

  1. We'll be able to re-order to some of the sermons to facilitate better grouping.
  2. The entire index is already linked to the sermon. The only issue is the dozen sermons whose sermon title equals a Bible reference. This can be solved by removing the Bible references for the entire index. Normally I would be opposed to this but am fine with it in this scenario. The indicies are used primarily for navigation to the sermon.
  3. There was a misunderstanding in the production spec. There should be a link from the text to the media.
  4. Although videos are typically meant to be a supplemental target resource, I can see what I can do to re-order the videos.

Posts 4829
DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 20 2016 4:51 PM

Thank you Bradley for reporting this issue.

Bradley Grainger (Faithlife):

Disciple of Christ (doc):
 For sermons which are simply titled by the passage references, as in these Psalms examples, rather than taking you to the transcript of the sermon, clicking on the hyperlink takes you to your highest priority bible.

I've reported this problem.

As far as I can tell, it affects about a dozen sermon titles in the (two) sermon indices; is that correct?

Posts 200
David J. Wilson | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 20 2016 5:06 PM

Thanks Kyle Smile

Posts 95
Johan L | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 20 2016 6:13 PM

Thank you Diciple of Christ for reporting these issues.

First of all, I'm very happy to see this resource released! However, I too was a bit perplexed by how haphazardly this resource was put together. To me a main problem seems to be the way series are put together.

Take a look at the following screenshot, and have in mind that this is a random section of less than one percent of the total number of sermons. The main thing here is consistency.

  • The first "Elders, pastors..." is not marked as being a part of a series while the other is. This is of course not a problem when opening from the TOC, but may be if you open it from a guide.
  • Part 7? Of what?
  • The Adam and Eve one is minor of course, but still an inconsistency.

In all these examples it is pretty clear what the theme of the series is, but in others it's not. I wish series could have a series headline, and then there was a space after the last item making it easier to immediately identify how many items where in a series and to scroll the pages. In the TOC bar the series could be collapsible like chapters with subchapters in other books.  

I would also love to be able to find the 16 sermons with videos more easily.
Edited for clearity.

Posts 317
Vincent Chia | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 20 2016 6:44 PM

It seems to me that FL has an intrinsic/inherent quality control problem. This is very disappointing considering the fact that some of us have invested much into FL. Maybe the big boss might want to look into the quality control in FL.

I understand that some software companies subcontract certain projects to third world countries (like India) for sustainability and cost issues. But FL is unlikely to be using some third party services in her production/quality control. However, the end product comes short of being acceptable in quality.

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Posts 95
Johan L | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 20 2016 7:22 PM

I should have looked harder, but there is a sermons by series section at the end. I would still like this resource to be organized in a more logical manner originally. Besides, what constitutes a series still looks a bit strange.

Some titles of series gives away nothing like "1994 conference". Sometimes series seems to mean theme. And sometimes series starts out logical, but ends strangely. E.g. this:


  Praying with Paul

    Part 1—Foundations (2 Thessalonians 1:1–12)
    Part 2—People (1 Thessalonians 2:17–3:13)
    Part 3—Practice (Colossians 1:3–20)
    Part 5—Mystery (Ephesians 1:1–23)
    Part 6—Ministry (Romans 15:14–33)
    Understanding Postmodernism from a Confessional Stance—Part 1
    Understanding Postmodernism from a Confessional Stance—Part 2
    The Use of the Old Testament in the New Testament—Part 3
    Postmodernism Workshop: Understanding Postmodernism from a Confessional Stance
    The Use of the Old Testament in the New Testament—Part 1
    The Use of the Old Testament in the New Testament—Part 2
    The Gagging of God—Q & A
    The New Perspective on Paul
    The Love of God

Posts 943
Everett Headley | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 20 2016 8:49 PM

Just another example of the desperate need of Bob to spend some money on a QA dept. Or at least one person.  Or just look over a product before it ships.

Posts 95
Johan L | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 20 2016 9:27 PM

Johan L:
and have in mind that this is a random section of less than one percent of the total number of sermons.

Whoops, although I wish I had 5000 sermons by Carson in my library the correct percentage should of course be less than 10 percent. Stick out tongue

Posts 772
JRS | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 21 2016 7:47 AM

Kyle G. Anderson:
videos are typically meant to be a supplemental target resource

I understand the thinking behind media being a 'supplemental target' but I think it is a rather myopic assumption.  There are probably two different types of users for this material.  

First would be any one who is simply mining the sermons for illustrations, apt quotes, soundbites, anecdotes, word freq studies of how often Carson says, "unpack" or "tease out" [Wink], etc.  In this case it would be appropriate for the transcribed sermons to be primary and the media to assume a "supplemental" role - hence the 'just throw it into the shoe box' lack of organization of the media files.

The second type of user wants to go through and actually watch/listen to each sermon or lecture in a series - in which case the media files would take a primary role and the transcriptions would be supplemental.  In this scenario, the current media TOC is next to worthless.

Suggestions (FWIW):

(1) The 'Sermons by Reference' section at the end of the transcribed sermons/lectures is very good and should be left alone - exactly where it is at.  It should, however, be added to the same position in the media TOC.

(2) The 'Sermons by Series' is worthless at the end of the transcribed sermons TOC.  In fact, it should have been used as the actual TOC for both the transcribed and the media resources (with the media files in the same exact order as the transcribed).

How blessed is the one whom Thou dost choose, and bring near to Thee(Psa 65:4a)

Posts 2820
Michael Childs | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 21 2016 8:00 AM

The material in the Don Carson Sermon Library is A++.  However, it does need some work.  It seems slow and unstable, on top of the organizational problems mentioned in this thread.  In fact, it has hung up several times as I was reading it, and I had to use Task Manager to close the Logos program, and restart.

"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley

Posts 589
Ted Weis | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 21 2016 3:00 PM

It does need to be organized better, both text and media. I'm disappointed it came out in this condition.

Posts 13199
Forum MVP
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 21 2016 3:38 PM

Kyle G. Anderson:

There will be a few things we can do.

  1. We'll be able to re-order to some of the sermons to facilitate better grouping.
  2. The entire index is already linked to the sermon. The only issue is the dozen sermons whose sermon title equals a Bible reference. This can be solved by removing the Bible references for the entire index. Normally I would be opposed to this but am fine with it in this scenario. The indicies are used primarily for navigation to the sermon.
  3. There was a misunderstanding in the production spec. There should be a link from the text to the media.
  4. Although videos are typically meant to be a supplemental target resource, I can see what I can do to re-order the videos.

The table of contents could do with an update too — so that sermons are grouped under series.

I do agree with others that this really does underline the need for better QA before books are published.

Posts 616
Ryan | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 21 2016 3:39 PM

Michael Childs:

The material in the Don Carson Sermon Library is A++.  However, it does need some work.  It seems slow and unstable, on top of the organizational problems mentioned in this thread.  In fact, it has hung up several times as I was reading it, and I had to use Task Manager to close the Logos program, and restart.

I've had the same problems Michael, especially with trying to play the videos. It causes Logos to hang almost every time and I have to use the Task Manager to close it. It's the only resource in my entire library that is problematic.

Posts 481
Richard Villanueva | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 21 2016 4:26 PM

I wonder if this is an issue of being a FL Created Resource or rather something they have received from Carson or TGC or whomever has provided the material and handed to FL to be Tagged, Linked, and then sold to FL Customers.  I'm sure if FL gathered and created this as an In-House Resource, it's a matter of assigning a person or team to thinking better about how this was all put together.

On the other hand and thinking about some complaints that have come up in the past about image quality, typos, etc. with both Vyrso and Logos Books the official FL response has been: "We can fix typos/image quality, unless it came from the Publisher that way. Then the Publisher has to update it."

FWIW, In our church, I know titles of series can occasionally be formatted wonky ("Part 1" goes at the beginning of the sermon title and next week a different volunteer puts "Part 2" at the end of the sermon title.)  It seems like these audio/video files were gathered from all over the place.  If it was all material gathered by another organization and then handed over to FL, they (unfortunately) may not have much say in how these are formatted. 

Side note - I have been getting a kick out of listening to a couple teachings and hearing about 45 minutes into it: "Turn the tape to side b now."  Flashbacks.

Edit: Looking briefly at the FL responses above, maybe my points are invalid?

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Posts 2
Lawrence Almond | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 23 2016 7:01 PM

My biggest problem is with the media files. There is no link from the Sermons by Series Index to the media files so, because of the way the various talks are named, it becomes nearly impossible to work out which talks go with which in a series.

 

I was looking for talks about Revelation. The table of contents lists the following.

1 Rev 4

1 Rev 4

2 Rev 5

2 Rev 5

3 Rev 12

3 Rev 12

4 Rev 13 (part 1)

4 Rev 13

5 Rev 13 (Part 2)

5 Rev 14

6 Rev 14

6 Rev 21:1-8

7 Rev 21-22:6

7 Rev 21:9-22:6

How do I make sense of that ???

 

There are 22 files called “Part …….”

These obviously come from at least 4 different series of talks – but how do I tell which comes from which.

Posts 32
elliott siu | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 5 2019 11:04 AM

Sorry to revive an old thread. Has this been resolved? I'm considering purchasing.

Thanks!

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