Is Logos unsupportive of local church and ministry?

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Posts 58
Simon Smailus | Forum Activity | Posted: Thu, Dec 22 2016 7:03 AM

I recently enquired whether Logos offers discounts for those in full time ministry, after all they are on the frontline needing to preach sermons and teach their congregations as well as interact with their community. Logos as a resource would be wonderful.

However, the response from Logos was that they do not offer a discount for full time ministry. This is extremely sad news. Interestingly Logos does offer discounts for education, but so do most software vendors because they know this feathers their nest for the future. It seems a little hypocritical to tout a sermon builder, but not enable the very people who produce most sermons to use it because they cannot afford it! Some Pastors are very well paid, but many are not and have a very meagre budget for resources. Logos could easily help with this.

This does make me ask the question if Logos is a purely secular profit organisation? I would expect a company with a Christian ethos to try to enable those in frontline ministry and have a heart for the gospel to spread. As many have already said in these forums and elsewhere, Logos is not cheap and nor are it's packages. This leaves the impression that Logos is rapidly becoming a tool for the wealthy rather than a resource for the local church at large.

I'm posting this in the hope that Logos will read this and reconsider. I also want to bring this to the attention of those in full time ministry. Accordance, one of Logos's competitors does offer a full time ministry discount.

Perhaps Logos will change it's mind if it sees a swell of support for those in favour of discounts for those in full time ministry, after all if they can do it for education, why can they not do it for those engaged in full time ministry?

Posts 10116
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 22 2016 7:16 AM
Simon, first, I've suggested the same previously. I'm not even sure a discount would negatively impact Faithlife profits. Getting long term customers to sign into their family of products and services might be profitable ... would have to see their data. But I don't subscribe to your front-line imagery. Christians are the frontline. Every day, every hour.


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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 22 2016 7:18 AM

Simon Smailus:
This does make me ask the question if Logos is a purely secular profit organisation? I would expect a company with a Christian ethos to try to enable those in frontline ministry and have a heart for the gospel to spread

From their website:- https://faithlife.com/about/company 

"As Faithlife continues to grow, our goal is to not only create the best Bible study tools available, but to serve the church by making Bible study resources accessible to developing countries all over the globe."

So their goals and heart seem to be aligned with what you are asking for.

Simon Smailus:
Perhaps Logos will change it's mind if it sees a swell of support for those in favour of discounts for those in full time ministry, after all if they can do it for education, why can they not do it for those engaged in full time ministry?

I would expect the financial impact to their business to be very different - presumably there are many more ministers in full-time ministry than those in education and so the cost to Faithlife would be greater. 

Simon Smailus:
but many are not and have a very meagre budget for resources. Logos could easily help with this.

Can you try and quantify what you mean by this? What sort of "help" are you looking for?

And - with reference to the subject of your post - I can only say that I find the tools and products provided in Logos as very helpful in my ministry in the local church.

Posts 1966
Joseph Turner | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 22 2016 7:39 AM

I would argue that Logos offers discounts all the time for everyone.  You specifically mentioned the sermon builder functionality, and base packages with that functionality have been discounted now for some time.  If your question is more about getting extra discounts on top of that, I can say that the academic discount does not get applied on top of any other discount.  Whichever discount is greater is the one which will apply.

Disclaimer:  I hate using messaging, texting, and email for real communication.  If anything that I type to you seems like anything other than humble and respectful, then I have not done a good job typing my thoughts.

Posts 6321
DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 22 2016 8:18 AM

 Back in the old libronix days they used to have the coupon code PASTOR  and that gave a 25% off if I'm not mistaken. My personal opinion is that a minister should buy his own tools to do his job and not rely on churches or FL to get them cheap. Discounts are always welcomed but shouldn't always be expected; especially on a premium tool like Logos. I used to heavily use e-sword, but then little by little started investing in Logos as finances permitted.  I wanted premium (perhaps didn't "need" it), so I chose to invest in order to get it.  If I had not been able to invest, I'd probably still be with e-sword which still allowed me to do my job. So the title of this thread is not really appropriate since it's stating something that is not true. Logos does help, maybe not in the way some would want them to help, but they do help.

DAL

Posts 939
Deacon Steve | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 22 2016 8:19 AM

I thought there was a "Pastor" discount.  No?

Posts 263
Greg Corbin | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 22 2016 8:24 AM

Simon,

  Having been in full-time ministry for 20+ years now, I can relate to your concern.  I served in chruches that gave me little to no money for resources and paid for many of the out of my pocket. In the last several years, I have been fortunate to serve in churches that provide ample funds. That being said, I am sure that FaithLife knows the profile of those who use its products. Likely, a huge number are in ministry to some degree.  I am certain that affects the discounts they offer.  I tend to agree with the commentator who said that he feels FaithLife offers discounts all the time to everyone.

  I wonder if it might help some feelings if FaithLife offered a discount on base packages or the intital purchase for those in full time ministry?  That would provide a discount and entice people to buy in without locking FaithLife into huge discounts as long as a person is a customer. It would also encourage new customers to make larger purchases on the front end. Just a thought.

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PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 22 2016 8:29 AM

Simon Smailus:

Logos is not cheap and nor are it's packages.

Logos resources are expensive. If I knew how much it would eventually cost since buying my first package, I would have looked at a different product.

It's still a great program, but it's cost a great deal to get to this point, despite waiting for good sales, and I still have items on my wish list that I'd like to eventually get.

If you only have a meager budget, be aware that will take a long time to build up your library, additional discount or not.

Joseph Turner:

If your question is more about getting extra discounts on top of that, I can say that the academic discount does not get applied on top of any other discount.  Whichever discount is greater is the one which will apply.

I never knew that!

Posts 2760
Erwin Stull, Sr. | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 22 2016 8:44 AM

Steve:

I thought there was a "Pastor" discount.  No?

Most, if not all, of the codes changed when 7 was released.

Posts 58
Simon Smailus | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 22 2016 9:06 AM

Denise:
But I don't subscribe to your front-line imagery. Christians are the frontline. Every day, every hour.

True, but most don't carry the need to prepare sermons, teach nor engage with the community on the level a church minister would in his parish.

Posts 58
Simon Smailus | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 22 2016 9:11 AM

Graham Criddle:

Can you try and quantify what you mean by this? What sort of "help" are you looking for?

Simply put, making it more affordable.

Graham Criddle:

I would expect the financial impact to their business to be very different - presumably there are many more ministers in full-time ministry than those in education and so the cost to Faithlife would be greater. 

It would be interesting to see if this was in fact the case.

Graham Criddle:

And - with reference to the subject of your post - I can only say that I find the tools and products provided in Logos as very helpful in my ministry in the local church.

No argument there, it comes back to whether it is affordable.

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PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 22 2016 9:14 AM

Erwin Stull, Sr.:

Steve:

I thought there was a "Pastor" discount.  No?

Most, if not all, of the codes changed when 7 was released.

Understandable. FL didn't want to give an additional 10-15% off, on top of the introductory + LN discounts.

I was initially disappointed to learn out that the Library Expansion "Save 15%" when bought with L7 offer couldn't be combined with the LN discount, but like any coupon, only one can apply. (FL could communicate this better, that we might not anticipate better savings.)

I wouldn't be surprised to see 10% off base package coupon codes return down the road, once the initial discount ends. As for 15%, my rep has repeatedly said that ended with Logos 6, and we shouldn't expect to see 15% off again on a base package.

Posts 58
Simon Smailus | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 22 2016 9:15 AM

Joseph Turner:

I would argue that Logos offers discounts all the time for everyone.  You specifically mentioned the sermon builder functionality, and base packages with that functionality have been discounted now for some time.  If your question is more about getting extra discounts on top of that, I can say that the academic discount does not get applied on top of any other discount.  Whichever discount is greater is the one which will apply.

Discounts compared to what? Logos's own pricing? I've often found Logos to charge more for a product than Olive tree or Accordance, or just the plain old hard copy even with their discount. Just because it says discount, doesn't mean it is. Amazon are the same with their RRP price and what an amazing discount they offer. Problem is the RRP is often a fictional or inflated price.

Posts 58
Simon Smailus | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 22 2016 9:19 AM

DAL:

So the title of this thread is not really appropriate since it's stating something that is not true. Logos does help, maybe not in the way some would want them to help, but they do help.

There's no argument about the use of Logos. However, that only applies if you can afford it.

Posts 58
Simon Smailus | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 22 2016 9:19 AM

Steve:

I thought there was a "Pastor" discount.  No?

No

Posts 58
Simon Smailus | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 22 2016 9:21 AM

Greg Corbin:

I wonder if it might help some feelings if FaithLife offered a discount on base packages or the intital purchase for those in full time ministry?  That would provide a discount and entice people to buy in without locking FaithLife into huge discounts as long as a person is a customer. It would also encourage new customers to make larger purchases on the front end. Just a thought.

I think it would help if it has some options that were focused at those in full time ministry.

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PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 22 2016 9:28 AM

Simon Smailus:

Denise:
But I don't subscribe to your front-line imagery. Christians are the frontline. Every day, every hour.

True, but most don't carry the need to prepare sermons, teach nor engage with the community on the level a church minister would in his parish.

Paul supported himself making tents, while teaching and engaging with many different communities, and he did it all without technology.

My pastor does word studies and other sermon prep with his print library. He'll use a computer to type up his outline, but doesn't rely on bible study software. Of course, he's been doing that for 45 or 46 years, along with all the weddings, funerals, visitations, counseling, church repairs, etc., that his job involves.

I don't think he feels he is missing out on anything, as he prefers print editions.

It's not FL's job to support his ministry, the local body is responsible for supporting him!

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PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 22 2016 9:41 AM

Simon Smailus:

Joseph Turner:

I would argue that Logos offers discounts all the time for everyone.  You specifically mentioned the sermon builder functionality, and base packages with that functionality have been discounted now for some time.  If your question is more about getting extra discounts on top of that, I can say that the academic discount does not get applied on top of any other discount.  Whichever discount is greater is the one which will apply.

Discounts compared to what? Logos's own pricing? I've often found Logos to charge more for a product than Olive tree or Accordance, or just the plain old hard copy even with their discount. Just because it says discount, doesn't mean it is. Amazon are the same with their RRP price and what an amazing discount they offer. Problem is the RRP is often a fictional or inflated price.

This is true, especially when FL places a very high price on public domain resources from 2-3 centuries ago that are freely available elsewhere (albeit without the links). Everything is more expensive than it probably should be, and the discounts have apparently gotten smaller over the years. But we know this, and I doubt things will improve.

I suppose if people are really unhappy with FL, they can sell off their library, then buy another competitor's product. Personally, I like the program too much, even if the prices are expensive, so I stick with Logos, and just buy less than I'd want.

Posts 5248
Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 22 2016 9:52 AM

PetahChristian:
I suppose if people are really unhappy with FL, they can sell off their library, then buy another competitor's product. Personally, I like the program too much, even if the prices are expensive, so I stick with Logos, and just buy less than I'd want.

And I have heard of several people doing just that... I have no plans on leaving FL but I can understand why someone with a small library might go elsewhere. As we have often been reminded Faithlife is a business. As such if it wants to keep its customers it better offer a good product at a decent price. Each one must decide for themselves on the value of FL software.

-Dan

Posts 58
Simon Smailus | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 22 2016 10:01 AM

PetahChristian:

Paul supported himself making tents, while teaching and engaging with many different communities, and he did it all without technology.

My pastor does word studies and other sermon prep with his print library. He'll use a computer to type up his outline, but doesn't rely on bible study software. Of course, he's been doing that for 45 or 46 years, along with all the weddings, funerals, visitations, counseling, church repairs, etc., that his job involves.

I don't think he feels he is missing out on anything, as he prefers print editions.

Actually, Paul used the "technology" that was available at the time, books and parchments. Your Pastor has also been using "technology", which is his library of books, pens and paper, plus the electric lights, etc ,etc. He may not be using a computer, but he is certainly using technology. If you want to do ministry without technology, then get rid of your books, pens, paper, etc, plus your Bible as it is also developed with Gutenberg's technology.

Just because it was last century's technology, doesn't cease to make it technology. I would, however agree that computers are not necessary, but they are useful. How much time is saved searching a word on a computer than using Strong's Exhaustive hardcopy concordance?

PetahChristian:

It's not FL's job to support his ministry, the local body is responsible for supporting him!

You are right that Logos has no responsibility in supporting full time ministry. This thread was an attempt to ask whether they should. After all they are supporting those in Christian education. Surely full time ministry is equally worthy?

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