How do you use Logos? How can we improve it?

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This post has 98 Replies | 14 Followers

Posts 285
Hapax Legomena | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 31 2016 11:36 AM

Scott Spinola:

...

In general, the resources available in Verbum are tremendous, but the usability of the software needs vast improvement. My overall impression is that it’s built for use by software developers, as it seems like I’m always struggling to figure out how to do what should be very simple tasks.

...

Yes!!  In a nut shell.  I love the resources and the power I should have.  I've struggled for years with searches.  I thought I was just stupid.

Posts 287
Lonnie Spencer | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 31 2016 11:44 AM

Hey Scott,

 I too was frustrated by not having Logos open to where I left it when I closed the program. But if you go into Tools and program settings, under general- At start up open to, Most recent layout- any; it will open to the same place you left it when you closed Logos. This way I didn't have to create a layout or remember to save it when I close the software. And it is the same place as when I left it.

Posts 22
Scott | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 31 2016 2:13 PM

Thanks for that, Lonnie, that's a good tip. I just tried it though. It actually doesn't save the layout as a new permanent state of the layout. It's only temporary.

Let's say I have two layouts: Bible Study Layout and Catechism Study Layout.

Scenario 1: I open Bible Study Layout at the beginning of Mark, read to the end of Mark 3, then close the application while the Bible Study Layout is open. Then I restart.

  • Verbum opens to the Bible Study Layout at the end of Mark 3.

Scenario 2: I open Bible Study Layout at the beginning of Mark, read to the end of Mark 3, then open my Catechism Study Layout, read a few chapters, then open the Bible Study Layout again, it doesn't open to the end of Mark 3, but the beginning of Mark as the last "saved" state.

This is a decent workaround if you only use one layout and don't switch off it, but it's not a real solution if you have more than one.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 31 2016 2:44 PM

Scott you can only save the last layout open in your scenario. Save the Bible Study layout BEFORE you open the Catechism Study layout and you'll be fine.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 2465
Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 31 2016 3:25 PM

Rosie Perera:

Those are my two biggest complaints right now. I don't need more features. I only use a small fraction of the ones that are in Logos already.

IMHO the doyenne of Logos has said it perfectly. Yes

Posts 3023
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 31 2016 3:31 PM

Scott Spinola:

  • Layouts are difficult to use and unintuitive.
  • Layouts don’t open where you left off last.
  • The software adds resources to layouts on its own.
  • You can’t open more than one layout at a time.
  • There's no direct way to create a new layout.

FaithLife conceptualizes layouts differently than you (and many other people) do. For them, Layouts are principally starting points, not trackers of ongoing work. Their approach supports a common workflow model... but not your (common) workflow model. "Self-Updating Layouts" (need a better name) would be a nice option to have in order to properly support your style of workflow. (I use both models.)

Scott Spinola:
There's no direct way to create a new layout: There should be an obvious way (a “New Layout” button or menu option) to create a new layout. Since there doesn’t seem to be that clear way, I end up closing all the resources in my meticulously created layout — fearing that my layout will be lost in the process — then open new resources, and click Save As Named Layout. Again, it took a trip to the forums to even figure out what all that meant. None of it is intuitive or easy to figure out.

I find the "save as named layout" link in blue letters that appears after I click on "Layouts" in the top right-hand corner direct and straightforward. As with the above issue, it's a fundamental difference in understanding between you and FL that creates the confusion. Changing the blue text to "save as new named layout" would, I think, be an improvement.

Posts 754
David A Egolf | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 31 2016 3:45 PM

If you want Logos to run faster, then take away all the i7 processors and SSD drives from the developers.  Make them develop on slower, smaller machines.  A large number of your developers should have 8 GB of RAM, or less, rather than 16 GB.  Sorry, developers, but if you don't feel the pain, then you won't know what needs to be fixed.

When I first went to work at a mainframe computer manufacturer in the 1970's, the software developers were using a large set of in-house tools to navigate around our time sharing system.  Management stepped in and made us throw any of the tools out that couldn't be given to the customers.  Thus, the customer interfaces were improved when we were forced to use them.

During the development of a collaboration web site about 15 years ago, I asked management to not upgrade any of our PC's.  I had seen too many software applications which were really sluggish because the developers had clearly been working on the latest, fastest, and largest systems.  Their user community had suffered.

Since we were developing a web site, I divided different browser responsibilities between members of the team.  We even had assignments for each of the latest versions of Firefox.  I think the analog for Logos is to make sure that some developers are working with introductory packages while some are working on full portfolio collections.  Thus, at least some of the developers are going to notice if opening a library window takes too long. (This is a concession to MJ who specifically complained about this.  Since I never see the problem, I suspect it is due to her large library.)

Posts 10115
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 31 2016 5:02 PM

David, I always wanted to do that, but fast computers meant faster development. The solution was to give the boss the typical customer computer (under-powered). Then she (me) would do the squealing.  Very quickly.

The other requirement I had was always test with people who don't care (normal people). Beta testers usually are not normal people.


Posts 22
Scott | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 31 2016 6:15 PM

Thanks for your thoughts SineNomine. Here are mine.

SineNomine:

FaithLife conceptualizes layouts differently than you (and many other people) do. For them, Layouts are principally starting points, not trackers of ongoing work. Their approach supports a common workflow model... but not your (common) workflow model. "Self-Updating Layouts" (need a better name) would be a nice option to have in order to properly support your style of workflow. (I use both models.)

I can't imagine a scenario where starting in then exact same place is worthwhile and don't really need to. To each his own. If that's something people want to do (as you said you do), a simple preference called "Auto-Save Layouts" would do the job. But it ought to default to be on, since I think that makes the most intuitive sense to people.

SineNomine:

I find the "save as named layout" link in blue letters that appears after I click on "Layouts" in the top right-hand corner direct and straightforward. As with the above issue, it's a fundamental difference in understanding between you and FL that creates the confusion. Changing the blue text to "save as new named layout" would, I think, be an improvement.

The problem with that is that is someone new to the software would not (I don't think) assume that after working and reading that the layout would reset to the where it started. An uninitiated user would not imagine the workflow you describe because it's not common.

Also, the way it's designed now, to create a new layout, you first have to have everything in place before "save as named layout" even makes sense. How do you start to do that if you have a layout open? You need to remove things from your current layout and add new ones. If I create a new thing in any other software I don't start by taking apart another thing. That's not very intuitive. A "Create New Layout" option would be far better. It would close the current layout (and save it if that's the preference setting) and open a blank one. I think that makes far more sense than the current way. If I had to delete the story I've been writing in my word processor, then type my new story over it before I could save it, I don't think I'd ever use that software.

I maintain that the way the software is designed creates a very high and intimidating barrier to entry for new users.It even looks difficult to use. That you and other power users know how it works because you've been using it that way is great, but that doesn't mean it's intuitive. It just means you figured it out.

The best designed software doesn't need a manual. How to do things is easy to figure out. This software not only needs a manual, but it needs a 24/7 personal tutor.

If Logos wants to stay as a niche product — if that's their business model — then so be it. If, however (as MJ asked) they want to get it out into the congregation, it needs a complete overhaul with a focus on usability.

Posts 22
Scott | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 31 2016 6:19 PM

MJ. Smith:

Scott you can only save the last layout open in your scenario. Save the Bible Study layout BEFORE you open the Catechism Study layout and you'll be fine.

I know. Thank you MJ. My point was that that preference was not a solution to the problem of layouts not auto-saving because there's only a single scenario where it works. Thanks for the tip though.

Posts 128
Andrew116 | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 31 2016 7:05 PM

I disagree Scott

the way it currently works is exactly how I assumed as a new user and exactly how I want it to perform

in the process of study I often make a mess of things, opening lots of windows. But I like being able to start fresh with a new clean workspace each time

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 31 2016 7:35 PM

Scott Spinola:
My point was that that preference was not a solution to the problem of layouts not auto-saving

What you have to recognize is that I DON'T want a layout autosaving - it would screw me over royally. But I do understand why some people want autosaving - and there is a workflow that meets their requirement. An autosave feature would not have a workflow that met my requirement but would require the addition of an override switch. The difference is that I rarely use Logos to work through a resource sequentially - I work on lessons and lectionary based liturgy which rarely has me using resources sequentially.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 3190
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PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 31 2016 7:57 PM

Scott Spinola:

I can't imagine a scenario where starting in then exact same place is worthwhile and don't really need to. To each his own. If that's something people want to do (as you said you do), a simple preference called "Auto-Save Layouts" would do the job. But it ought to default to be on, since I think that makes the most intuitive sense to people.

I would think that auto-saving would be an annoyance in general, since it puts the "housekeeping" burden on the user who has to remember to close any tabs they wouldn't want to automatically open again, before quitting the program (or close them the next day, when they open if they forgot to previously close them).

I also would think that any notion of "auto-saving" layouts would have to be configured on a layout-by-layout basis, rather than a global preference. Determining whether a layout should or shouldn't auto-save doesn't seem like a simple notion that someone would intuitively understand. It merely adds additional complexity to the layout UI, which already has a per-layout "Update to current snapshot" option.

Personally, I never save any layouts before closing, and wouldn't want any layout I use to ever auto-save, as I've almost always opened other specific tabs in the course of the day that I wouldn't need to open again for the next day.

Here are a couple of examples where the "exact same place" is useful:

  • The Home Page layouts (e.g., Bible Reading Plan) is a perfect example of a layout that adjusts to today's reading, without ever needing to "auto-save" to remember where you left off.
  • (Mobile Ed and) the Courses tool also start in the "same" place. The Courses tool remembers where you left off in a course, not the layout.  (I want the course's layout to open in the exact same initial way (e.g., with this particular arrangement of notes, passage lists, etc.), but don't want every recommended reading from a previous session to also open.)

Andrew116:

the way it currently works is exactly how I assumed as a new user and exactly how I want it to perform

in the process of study I often make a mess of things, opening lots of windows. But I like being able to start fresh with a new clean workspace each time

Yes

Plus, there's the benefit of it opening much more quickly, as it only has to open the initial workspace, not every other window you left open.

Posts 754
David A Egolf | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 31 2016 8:29 PM

Scott Spinola:

I can't imagine a scenario where starting in then exact same place is worthwhile and don't really need to. To each his own. If that's something people want to do (as you said you do), a simple preference called "Auto-Save Layouts" would do the job. But it ought to default to be on, since I think that makes the most intuitive sense to people.

My very first use case for layouts was to design a layout for Greek Bible study and another for regular Bible study.  Thus, each of these customized layouts was a starting point for a new session.  It would be very distressing for these "starting" points to be auto-saved!

Posts 754
David A Egolf | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 31 2016 8:33 PM

Furthermore, I go down a lot of rabbit trails.  So I like explicit control of my current layout.  I can wander off wherever I want.  If I like where I am, then I can save the layout.  On the other hand, if it is a dead end, or something off the main track of study, then I can easily revert.

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 1 2017 1:36 AM

Scott Spinola:

1. Layouts are difficult to use and unintuitive.

  • Layouts don’t open where you left off last: If I have my Bible in the layout, logic would suggest that if I stopped reading yesterday at the end of Mark 3, opening the layout tomorrow should open right where I stopped reading but it doesn't. It returns to whatever state it was in the last time I took a snapshot last week or last month. The places in the resources, the arrangement of panes, and which tabs are active should appear where I left off. The only way to do that is to drill down into the “Layouts” menu (which means nothing to a newbie), hopefully click exactly on the tiny little hidden arrow that you can’t even see until you point to it, and select “update to current snapshot” (again, to a newbie, that means nothing). I had to find out all of this in the forums after tearing my hair out in frustration at why it wouldn’t just open where I left off, which one would expect it to do.

Quick Start Layouts in Logos 7 and Verbum 7 opens to Bible's last location. Default Devotional Quick Start Layout opens to Today's date in your highest prioritized Devotional plus changes Bible to first verse in Today's Devotional.

Logos 7 and Verbum 7 show Active Layout name in Title along with check mark in Layouts menu. Also has "Update active" with keyboard shortcut:

Logos User Voice suggestion => make 'save location in resources' optional in saved layouts. has 3 votes.

Scott Spinola:
The software adds resources to layouts on its own: After finally, carefully putting together a layout with all the resources and tools I want at hand to do my Bible study, it’s frustrating when I click on something in the home page and it opens in a seemingly random tab in my carefully constructed layout. Open them in a new window.

Concur opening something appears somewhere. Personally puzzled by panel selection for new tab. Dreaming of way to influence panel selection for tab creation. Windows allows right click option for dragging to desired location while OS X needs to create tab in a panel mysteriously chosen followed by dragging to desired location.

Logos User Voice suggestion => Assign panels a resource type for opening resources has 45 votes.

Scott Spinola:
You can’t open more than one layout at a time: I don’t know what kind of thing is happening on the back end, but why not just open each layout in its own window so we can flip back and forth between them?

Observation: a saved (named) layout can have more than one window.

Logos User Voice suggestion => Floating window layouts has 90 votes.

Scott Spinola:
There's no direct way to create a new layout: There should be an obvious way (a “New Layout” button or menu option) to create a new layout. Since there doesn’t seem to be that clear way, I end up closing all the resources in my meticulously created layout — fearing that my layout will be lost in the process — then open new resources, and click Save As Named Layout. Again, it took a trip to the forums to even figure out what all that meant. None of it is intuitive or easy to figure out.

Personally dragged command "Close All" to create a shortcut:

When want to close all resources, can click shortcut, which is much faster than closing every tab individually.

Scott Spinola:
2. Searching is overly complicated and incomplete.

Scott Spinola:
Basic searches require obscure codes: To find, for example, all the passages in my resources that I have highlighted with a specific style (say, “Saint Quotes”), I have to open a search tab and type {Highlight palette name/style name} — I had to go look that up again just now because it’s not intuitive or easy to remember. I should be able to right-click on style and click, “Find All” or be able to create a new document from a style like I can with a palette.

+1 Yes Concur right click on a highlighted word should have search options for that style. After using search code, an option is saving search in Favorites for future use. 

Current implementation of highlighting in Notes documents leaves a bit to be desired. When highlighting was converted to being stored in Note documents, a development design decision was the title should be a fragment of highlighted words.

Logos User Voice suggestion => Amend / Fix the highlighting functionality which causes only fragments of highlighted text to be stored in the Annotations (or Notes) file. has 40 votes while => Highlighting view has 13 votes.

Due to document design decision, personally have avoided highlighting. Instead have used visual filter highlighting (saved searches) extensively.

Scott Spinola:
3. Creating a reading list of any appreciable size is a hassle.

Scott Spinola:
Auto-generation of reading plans is too limited: I appreciate that there’s an auto-generate option for creating a reading plan, but it’s limited in what it creates, with dates being the only focus. It should provide options like, “1 chapter per day” or “two chapters per day” and not be restricted to a specific time frame.

Reading Plan generation has chapter and pericope options while finishing has "date" expectation.

Finish date is a bit challenging to choose when not know how many chapters so adding an option of # Chapters per day would be appreciated (allow Finish date to be calculated).

Thankful for Faithlife adding => New Bible Reading Plans for 2017 plus asking for more => Predefined Bible Reading Plans

Scott Spinola:
In the desktop app, the scroll bars are a mess. All the dashed lines for highlights make them impossible to use as a regular scroll bar, and I can’t see how they’re useful for what they’re intended for. A highlights menu or slide out drawer that lists all the highlights in a resource would be much better.

Help includes information about Program Settings (dashed lines can be turned off):

Scott Spinola:
Let me just upload a PDF into my personal books. Sometimes I don’t care about all the crazy functionality, I just want to be able to read the PDF and highlight it. Having to export a PDF to Word then import it is a hit-or-miss affair and way more trouble than it’s worth. I don’t even use this feature anymore.

Portability of PDF works well for printing. Document format allows text and/or images to be in file. Images of text can humanly be read (and highlighted on printed paper), but needs conversion to digital text for use in Logos, which includes highlighting and searching. Image conversion provides opportunities for many discussions. Thread => PBB - Converting pdf and epub to docx has longer discussion.

Keep Smiling Smile

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 1 2017 2:35 AM

Scott Spinola:
Also, the way it's designed now, to create a new layout, you first have to have everything in place before "save as named layout" even makes sense. How do you start to do that if you have a layout open? You need to remove things from your current layout and add new ones. If I create a new thing in any other software I don't start by taking apart another thing. That's not very intuitive. A "Create New Layout" option would be far better. It would close the current layout (and save it if that's the preference setting) and open a blank one.

I'm having a bit of a problem understanding your concern here ... when I wish to create a new layout I either (a) start from a blank workspace having used the command "close all" to create the blank workspace OR (b) I am deliberately building a new layout based upon another layout in which case I close and open tabs as you suggest OR (c) I had no intention of creating a new layout but in following a rabbit trail I hit upon a layout I wish to preserve to continue the rabbit trail. In all three cases, I tend to use "save as named layout" either when the layout is complete, as you suggest, or if I get interrupted to save the intermediate layout. In the later case, I then use "update active" to preserve the final layout. Whenever I wish to preserve position within the workspace, I again use "update active".

I think part of the difference in approach is I don't see "create new layout" as my goal - I see layouts as "save a useful layout". As a result many of my layouts are targeted towards very narrow tasks. I also like clean layouts with few resources open - depending upon parallel resources and links to access my resources.

One of the problems Faithlife faces is that what is an "intuitive" interface depends upon the software interfaces the user commonly uses. I had to resort to manuals and internet search more frequently for Microsoft Word than for Logos because I am very poor at guessing which of the heading categories MS thought something belonged under. Logos has only a couple of features hidden where I'd never expect them - expand/collapse all sections of a Guide being an example. Another problem Faithlife faces is that its users have been taught quite different workflows to create the same end product. This means that there is no "industry standard" workflow for them to design to. So they have designed a system that is far more language oriented rather than reception history oriented, far more single text oriented rather than a bundle of related texts oriented, far more individual reader oriented rather than corporate worship oriented ... which means that Logos is in many ways a total mismatch to my needs. But it is the best I have available and I can bend it to come reasonably close to what I really need.

I have tried putting Verbum into the congregation without a great deal of difficulty. I wrote short start-up instructions which included building a single layout and basing the group on a very small library.  The three problems that I found that needed to be addressed by Logos:

  • the ability to share layouts (and guide templates) rather than make newbies follow detailed instructions for a task they will not be using again in the group
  • the ability to define a library (including datasets) as "my total library" so that those with many resources can demonstrate tasks for the new users - getting results similar to what they get
  • a better integration of the Faithlife group tools into the Logos environment so the average user can do everything they need to participate in a class and ask questions in a single piece of software

There is no simple right answer - what we need to do is insure that Logos hears a variety of voices with a variety of needs and opinions. You have done a good job of that.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 22
Scott | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 1 2017 2:25 PM

MJ. Smith:
users have been taught quite different workflows to create the same end product. This means that there is no "industry standard" workflow for them to design to.

I imagine you're correct on this. This is natural in any software system, but I maintain it's due more to the fact that the interface is obtuse. Nothing really says exactly what the reader ultimately wants to do, only something to do before you do what you want. The result is that you need prior knowledge of all the steps involve, which is a bad thing to expect of users. "Close all" isn't the same thing as "Create New" it means close all. Then what do I do? Especially if — like me when I first started using — you have no idea if you're current layout will be saved. I can't tell you how man layouts I lost because of this.

Applications commands should match the users' ultimate intent, not what you might want to do after you use the command. Make it say "Create New Layout." It's a simple, direct command to create a new blank layout to start adding resources to.

And I don't see why a simple user preference to allow users to auto-save layouts would affect anybody who doesn't want to do that. Set to yes, it auto-saves. Set to no it doesn't. I don't understand the problem with having options for how people use the software.

MJ. Smith:
I don't see "create new layout" as my goal - I see layouts as "save a useful layout"

I don't understand how these are different. If you want to create a layout that's not the current layout then you're creating a new one by definition. If you're saving a revision of the current layout then give us a "Save Current Layout" command. Coupled with a preference to auto-save (which I would have turned on) I wouldn't even need to save the current one. With you having it turned off you would have to select "Save Current Layout". That would provide very clear indications of user intent. Commands like  are clear and obvious. None of the existing ones are.

And I wouldn't use Microsoft as an example of user interfaces, Theirs have been historically awful.

I probably won't be spending any more money on this software anyway since the last thing I want be is aggravated with the software while I'm doing Bible study. If Logos doesn't want to implement my suggestions that's their choice.

I've said all I want to say and don't see much point in continuing my part of the discussion. I hope you guys get the software you want.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 1 2017 2:38 PM

Scott Spinola:
I don't understand the problem with having options for how people use the software.

There is no problem except that each option increases the complexity of the software and interface.

Scott Spinola:
Applications commands should match the users' ultimate intent

What I tried to say was that the ultimate intent is not the same among the various users. Logos is simply a tool that provides us with data that we will use in different ways and therefore wish to see in different ways.

Scott Spinola:
I probably won't be spending any more money on this software anyway since the last thing I want be is aggravated with the software while I'm doing Bible study. If Logos doesn't want to implement my suggestions that's their choice.

I am genuinely sorry that you feel this way. Few people never get the "hang of" using Logos. Yes, it is very frustrating when you expect it to work one way but it works another ... and it takes a while to get your expectations to match what it actually does. And, yes, I have a few pet peeves where I think the design of Logos is downright wrong.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 15805
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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 1 2017 11:19 PM

Scott Spinola:
And I wouldn't use Microsoft as an example of user interfaces, Theirs have been historically awful.

Logos and Verbum has its own user interface style, which is a bit different than Windows and OS X (along with some annoyances).

Thankful Logos 7 and Verbum 7 user interface is similar to Logos 4

Scott Spinola:
... since the last thing I want be is aggravated with the software while I'm doing Bible study.

Concur since do not like frustration. While dreaming of option so can choose when to use search assistance, have found a set of parenthesis () does not have search assist pop-up. Composing a list of words for INTERSECTS has quicker entry inside a set of () compared to typing ( followed by trying to type a comma separated list with many search assistance pop-ups and spinning cursor delays.

Thankful for Faithlife creating free Bible Study Training => https://www.logos.com/bible-study-training that includes example software usage within a study framework of Observation, Interpretation, and Application.

Intriguing improvement could be sermon preparation training (on a variety of topics) to illustrate various work flow steps, which could include Proclaim (for practice and service use).

Personally not know of any other Bible software that can highlight range of Greek morphological usage. Logos wiki has => Examples of visual filters

Thankful for Faithlife enabling free sharing of documents (would like layouts added to sharable list).

Scott Spinola:
I've said all I want to say and don't see much point in continuing my part of the discussion.

Thankful for your valuable contributions. If you think of more improvement ideas or encounter points of frustration, please share.

Personally learned to click and wait for Logos 4 Alpha releases, which has some similar tendencies back in Logos 7 and Verbum 7. From a blank layout, opening one Bible with visual filters enabled has no visual clue of visual filter search progress, but click on "+" for a New Tab waits for visual filters to complete before showing list of Bibles with verse reference.

Everything Search recently changed to show 1-100 results in Library section, which is a bit distracting (would rather just see the first 100 results without 1-100 status message, prefer total number of results found).

Also dreaming of option to allow result set to have more than 10,000 (recent search of Greek Illiad for nominative case had more than 10,000 results)

Thankful for many friendly forum discussions: have learned a lot plus have a lot to learn.

Keep Smiling Smile

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