Has Anyone Read This Book...

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DAL | Forum Activity | Posted: Fri, Jan 13 2017 11:52 AM

Has anyone read The Fire That Consumes ? --- According to some reviews it's a thought provoking book.  Anyone cares to comment if you've read it and have it in your Logos library? Another question: What will this book contribute to the Zondervan Counterpoints book on Hell Four Views?

Thanks!

DAL

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NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 13 2017 12:53 PM

DAL:
Has anyone read The Fire That Consumes ?

Yes I have (but some time ago). Basically everybody looking into the (evangelical) discussion of points of view on hell will find that this book is championed - by it's friends and by opponenents/dectractors as well (those that are interested in bible-based argumentation, that is) - as the most thorough explanation of the "conditional immortality" position a.k.a. annihilationism. Fudge is cited in every relevant work on this topic since the 1980s (Logos carries the third edition of the book).  

I personally bought the kindle version of it some years ago but I find that works not in my Logos library tend to be under-utilized or forgotten, so I convinced myself to buy the Logos version on New Years Day when I saw it's in the January Sale with over 50% rebate.

DAL:
What will this book contribute to the Zondervan Counterpoints book on Hell Four Views?

On approx. 400 pages it will make a much more thorough case for the conditional Immortality view than John Stackhouse and Clark Pinnock can do in the two editions of the Counterpoints book, probably leaving no stone unturned and addressing every relevant argument.

Running Logos 8 latest beta version on Win 10

Posts 1645
Rick | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 13 2017 1:17 PM

I have read it and enjoyed it. If you are interested in the subject, I would highly recommend it. The author makes his case for conditional immortality. NB.Mick said everything in a much better way that I could have. Smile

Peace  Smile

Romans 14:19 (NRSV)
19 Let us then pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding.

Posts 6224
DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 13 2017 1:30 PM

Thanks Mick and Rick! I will wait till the 31th of this month, by then, the 30 day return period for the animated Philippians commentary will be over (in fact it'll be over on the 28th), so hopefully I will get my $10 credit and buy it for $9.99  instead of $19.99,  but if the credit doesn't come then I'll still get it for $19.99 because it's still 52% off discount  from the original price.  I will have to use the credit for something else  if it doesn't make it on time.

 Anyway, thank you guys for your feedback, I am sold on it! Now it's just a matter of time for me to get it 👍

DAL

Posts 56
Fred Robbins | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 13 2017 1:48 PM

DAL:

Has anyone read The Fire That Consumes ? --- According to some reviews it's a thought provoking book.  Anyone cares to comment if you've read it and have it in your Logos library? Another question: What will this book contribute to the Zondervan Counterpoints book on Hell Four Views?

Thanks!

DAL

Yes I have and it seems good.

Posts 47
SamK | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 17 2017 12:21 PM

I value the follow review:

    The Fire That Consumes. By Edward William Fudge. Houston: Providential Press, 1982, 500 pp., $19.95.
  This book supporting conditional immortality seems to be more slanted toward raising questions about the traditional view than presenting solid arguments for the conditional view. The conditional view defines everlasting punishment as “utter extinction into oblivion forever” (p. xiii). The traditional view, of course, teaches unending conscious torment of the wicked.
  If conditionalism be correct, then it must provide worthy interpretations of certain crucial Biblical passages that come almost immediately to mind. Thus if one wishes to cut through the peripheral (and often wordy) discussions of the many pages of this book to see whether a substantial case has been made for conditionalism, let him or her read the author’s suggested exegesis of these passages: (1) 2 Thess 1:9, where eternal destruction is defined as a quality of destruction—i.e., extinction (pp. 46-47); (2) Matt 3:12, where unquenchable fire is understood to mean fire that cannot be stopped (pp. 157-158); (3) Matt 18:8–9, where eternal fire means that it neither begins nor ends with the present age, but does not indicate what it will do to those thrown into it (pp. 183-187); (4) Matt 25:41, 46, where “eternal” is understood to be a qualitative word, “though its quantitative meaning is not denied,” and where we must not press the parallel between eternal life and eternal punishment lest we fall into a spirit of vindictiveness (pp. 194-196); (5) and Luke 16:19–31, where we are told that there is “no clear exegetical basis in Luke 16 for any conclusion concerning the end of the wicked” (p. 208).
  JETS 26/4 (December 1983) 458
  In addition, one should note some of the exegetical straws necessary to be grasped to help support the conditionalist cause. They include (1) defining death as nonlife, though this does not mean nonexistence (p. 258); (2) emphasizing the symbols in Revelation so that the beast and false prophet are not individuals who are cast into the lake of fire; (3) yet acknowledging that Satan is an individual creature who will be tormented day and night for ever and ever (for which “there is no easy solution,” p. 304—unless one is a traditionalist); (4) declaring that death itself will die because the lake of fire “clearly means annihilation and cessation of existence” (p. 307); and (5) insisting that God alone has immortality and people do not, even though a number of other attributes are predicated of God alone that have a counterpart in man (p. 52).
  Certain general observations can also be made: (1) The spirit of the book is irenic. (2) So many citations may tend to obscure the real weaknesses of the crucial arguments. (3) The author says that we cannot accept the traditional view until we have answered the conditional view. But why is not the reverse true? Why should we accept the conditional view until the traditional arguments are answered (and, in my judgment, they are not in this book despite all the research that has been done)? (4) If the wicked are to suffer an unspecified length of punishment before being annihilated, is it not reasonable to expect that such a climactic event as that annihilation be stated somewhere in the many eschatological passages in the Scriptures?
  Charles C. Ryrie


The Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society. (1998). (electronic edition.). Garland, TX: Galaxie Software.

Posts 6224
DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 17 2017 2:29 PM

Excellent review, SamK! I never really studied this other than the usual this is what this group believes and this is what this other group believes but have never done any indepth study on the subject. Thanks for posting!

DAL

Posts 3114
Mattillo | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 18 2017 6:39 AM

I've been told Erasing Hell by Francis Chan is a good book though I haven't read it yet.

If you haven't grabbed it yet DAL, Vyrso has the second edition of Four Views on Hell in the coutnerpoints series... that should have all you need.  It even comes with the first edition for free albeit in Vyrso form

Posts 2822
Michael Childs | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 18 2017 7:05 AM

Indeed, an excellent review, and thanks for sharing a summary of it, SamK.

It seems to me there is a reason that a traditional orthodox theological position stands the test of time to become a traditional orthodox position. 

I am not saying such a position should never be challenged, but such a position should never be lightly discarded without clear Scriptural reasons.  Generally, the main reason such traditional positions are attacked is that the position is no longer compatible with the popular culture's worldview. 

"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley

Posts 1379
Rick Ausdahl | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 18 2017 9:57 AM

Michael Childs:

Indeed, an excellent review, and thanks for sharing a summary of it, SamK.

It seems to me there is a reason that a traditional orthodox theological position stands the test of time to become a traditional orthodox position. 

I am not saying such a position should never be challenged, but such a position should never be lightly discarded without clear Scriptural reasons.  Generally, the main reason such traditional positions are attacked is that the position is no longer compatible with the popular culture's worldview. 

It's true that challenges to a traditional position may be due to a clash with popular culture, but I think it's also true that such challenges can come from members within the body of Christ, who are prodding the body to consider the possibility that there are other reasonable theological views worthy of genuine consideration.

I'm not saying that to indicate where I stand on the issue.  Only that intelligent, well-educated, well-informed, and deeply sincere Christians can come to different conclusions on theological issues, and when that happens, humility serves us all well.

Posts 56
Fred Robbins | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 18 2017 11:25 AM

Consider an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. What this means is that the punishment should meet the crime. Does our heavenly Father think that disobedience or plain unbelief warrants eternal torment?

 

Under the old covenant, God did not setup prisons. It was death, restitution, or banishment for the crimes committed and there was a distinction for breaking the law intentionally or unintentionally. They did have sanctuary cities but for protection not punishment.

 

We all die but Christ came so that they might have life! The hope of Israel was the resurrection from the dead.

 

This is just something to think about.

 

Blessings

Posts 6224
DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 31 2017 3:25 PM

Well, I bought it for $19.99 since the $10 credit never made it on time. I'm looking forward to reading this and see what kind of explanation he gives to some obvious texts embraced by the traditional view. 

DAL

Ps. I have plenty of material now plus the ones with the traditional view on it.

Posts 6224
DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 2 2017 3:58 PM

I've just found out that Homer Hailey, towards the end of his life, embraced "Annahilationism" or "Conditional Immortality." Interesting...I'll start reading this book Saturday. 

I wish we had his commentaries on Job, Isaiah, Minor Prophets and Revelation. How about it FL?

DAL

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