No NEW Journals - why not?

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Posts 3238
Mattillo | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 25 2018 3:34 AM

Phil Gons (Faithlife):

What I'd like to ask is that you give us at least few weeks to engage more fully in this conversation. We're in an exceptionally busy season right now, and several of us will be out of the office soon for ETS/SBL and then be out for Thanksgiving. So the soonest we could give this issue any serious consideration would be the final week of November.

I'm open to hosting a video chat with those who wish you participate in late November or early December. Can we agree on that as a good next step?

Thank you Mr Gons. That works for me.  My biggest journal interests are BibSac, JETS, and MSJ (though you don't support MSJ anymore).  What I find strange is Logos has such a good relationship with DTS that I would think their journals would be an automatic add.  Either way I look forward to figuring this out as I understand you need to make money on these to survive and we need the latest info so we can be up to date... a definite balancing act for sure

Posts 1979
Joseph Turner | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 25 2018 4:36 AM

Phil Gons (Faithlife):
We were hoping to be able to take this same approach with journals. In fact, the last journal bundles we shipped we did treat as pre-orders and put them into production before they were funded. But the gap between our costs and the total funding was significant enough to where we didn't consider it wise to repeat that.

Again Phil, I think it is a vicious cycle.  I don't think people are going to invest in journals until Logos proves that they can consistently produce them, yet Logos is not going to produce journals until people invest in them.  This pretty much means journals will never work the way they should under this model.

Disclaimer:  I hate using messaging, texting, and email for real communication.  If anything that I type to you seems like anything other than humble and respectful, then I have not done a good job typing my thoughts.

Posts 5025
DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 25 2018 4:55 AM

John Duffy:
To address that, how about a two-tier process? That is, have all journals released without tagging (or a bare minimum of tagging) at a reduced cost, as soon as they are available, possibly on a subscription basis? At the same time, put them into the pre-pub process for full tagging, prioritized as Mark has suggested? That would provide the basic content of journals quickly, while allowing time for the pre-pub process to run its normal course for the more expensive full tagging. 

Seems like a messy process and if someone buys tier one so that they don't miss out and the orders tier two in the hope of getting a better tagged journal, do they get dynamic pricing or do they have to pay full price ? And do they end up with two copies of the same journal in their library ?  

Tier one would be going back to what we had before and if FL had of stuck with what we had instead of biting off more than they could chew, thinking they could do journals better than others we wouldn't be in this position.

Posts 5025
DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 25 2018 4:56 AM

Joseph Turner:

Phil Gons (Faithlife):
We were hoping to be able to take this same approach with journals. In fact, the last journal bundles we shipped we did treat as pre-orders and put them into production before they were funded. But the gap between our costs and the total funding was significant enough to where we didn't consider it wise to repeat that.

Again Phil, I think it is a vicious cycle.  I don't think people are going to invest in journals until Logos proves that they can consistently produce them, yet Logos is not going to produce journals until people invest in them.  This pretty much means journals will never work the way they should under this model.

Spot on Joseph.  

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Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 25 2018 6:10 AM

Joseph Turner:
I think it is a vicious cycle.  I don't think people are going to invest in journals until Logos proves that they can consistently produce them, yet Logos is not going to produce journals until people invest in them.  This pretty much means journals will never work the way they should under this model.

I totally agree with what you are saying.

Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God

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Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 25 2018 6:10 AM

Phil Gons (Faithlife):
I'm open to hosting a video chat with those who wish you participate in late November or early December. Can we agree on that as a good next step?

This sounds like an excellent idea.

Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God

Posts 638
Michael S. | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 25 2018 6:43 AM

So question to the forum- can someone list the Journals that are most cited in scholarly works?  Does this mean that buying the Master Journal Bundle is overkill?  When I bought the Master bundle 2.1 in December of 2017, that was my first exposure to journals.  I have already benefited from articles in Priscilla Papers, The Southern Baptist Theological Journal, and the Christian History Magazine.  

Master 4.1 preorder for me is $276

Theological Journal 1-20 preorder is $308

For scholarly/ academic purposes, what should I go for (at the present state of things)?

Posts 1945
Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 25 2018 6:51 AM

Bruce Dunning:

Phil Gons (Faithlife):
I'm open to hosting a video chat with those who wish you participate in late November or early December. Can we agree on that as a good next step?

This sounds like an excellent idea.

Phil, thanks again for your post.  I agree that it would be a good idea to have a video chat with some of us. There are always advantages and disadvantages to doing something like that.  But hopefully, a video chat could produce helpful suggestions for moving forward.

I still think there is a way to move forward, but that would be for FL to decide. Some good suggestions have already been given in this thread by several people.  You all at FL know the realities of the market and can make decisions accordingly.

But what I am going to encourage is that a decision be reached and explained to us on this thread, and I dont think it is unreasonable to ask for that decision to come by the end of the year.

Meanwhile, as I mentioned before, this project is at the moment, dead.  I do not think any of us believe we will see any updated journals in the near future, and need to go elsewhere to get what is needed. 

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Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 25 2018 7:07 AM

Phil Gons (Faithlife):
I'm open to hosting a video chat with those who wish you participate in late November or early December. Can we agree on that as a good next step?

Thank you, Phil. I think it is a good idea and will try to participate. I hope this can get fixed.

Pastor, North Park Baptist Church

Bridgeport, CT USA

Posts 208
Matt Hamrick | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 25 2018 7:12 AM

If Faithlife cannot figure this out then maybe it's time to return the stuff to Galaxie. I remember all too well when Faithlife took over the journals and the issues with customers from the very beginning. Journals are the sole reason of some users using Logos Bible Software. 

Posts 1945
Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 25 2018 7:55 AM

Matt Hamrick:
Journals are the sole reason of some users using Logos Bible Software. 

It was my introduction to Logos.  I first bought journals in L3 days. Then, started getting interested in the software.

Posts 516
Bobby Terhune | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 25 2018 8:18 AM

From my humble perspective, Logos did indeed do the journals better than they had been done in the past. The only major problem that has been from the very beginning is the cost. Users balked and did not support the cost increase for "better tagging" during the prepub process. Because Logos did not get enough prepub orders, journals were not produced in a timely manner, hence the current problem of timely delivery of journals.

I see the problem as not enough people see the value of tagged journals. So that leaves us with, what are we willing to pay for? The last batch of journals were shipped to us below cost, and as Phil said, that is not sustainable.  Many on this thread are willing to do without the tagging, but that will create confusion for many users not understanding why there new purchase won't show up in the Guides. When Faithlife introduced ebooks, I though they were a great idea, but after have many, titles that have footnotes that link to nothing in the book or my library, it has become a disappointment. I'm still glad I have the book, but the experience is lacking. And so I don't want the same experience in journals if we can help it.

I for one am willing to pay for the tagging, I would want everything to work properly in the guides as well. I don't want to go back to just what Galaxie offered in the past, good as it was in the day.

Posts 487
John Duffy | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 25 2018 8:51 AM

doc:

John Duffy:
To address that, how about a two-tier process? That is, have all journals released without tagging (or a bare minimum of tagging) at a reduced cost, as soon as they are available, possibly on a subscription basis? At the same time, put them into the pre-pub process for full tagging, prioritized as Mark has suggested? That would provide the basic content of journals quickly, while allowing time for the pre-pub process to run its normal course for the more expensive full tagging. 

Seems like a messy process and if someone buys tier one so that they don't miss out and the orders tier two in the hope of getting a better tagged journal, do they get dynamic pricing or do they have to pay full price ? And do they end up with two copies of the same journal in their library ?  

Tier one would be going back to what we had before and if FL had of stuck with what we had instead of biting off more than they could chew, thinking they could do journals better than others we wouldn't be in this position.

I understand.

But there is a two-tier solution already in place. What if basic journals were offered in Vyrso (providing that footnotes are still included and not dropped in the process), with fully tagged journals offered through the pre-pub process in Logos (grouped by popularity/citation as Mark Barnes suggested)? Not ideal, I agree. But arguably better than at present.

In any case, I think that bundles grouped as Mark has mentioned would be a great way forward, regardless of what else may or may not happen.

Posts 1945
Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 25 2018 8:59 AM

Bobby, thanks for your contribution.  I think the problems have been well stated on the thread.  The question is how to move forward, and it appears that FL is seemingly interested in ideas to resolve the issues.  As I have mentioned, some good ideas have already been made on this thread. Some of those ideas:

1. Publish the Journals (or particular journals) with no special tagging...Ebook standard (this can be preferable than getting them from another source that also would not have tagging or as a separate pdf)

2. Publish the journals fully tagged...the works (I think, however, this is why they are languishing in pre pub....there is not enough interest for the price)

3. Publish a subset of journals well-tagged in a timely manner, but not all the journals FL currently offers.

4. If the best you can offer short term is what Galaxie offered with only the functionality they offered in Logos and nothing else, then start with that so we can get the current journals.  In other words, you were too ambitious adding so many journals and bundling them together is large packages.  Start again with the original journals Galaxie offered and build a base again.  Slowly add new small packages of specific journals.  But start somewhere with journals that clearly would sell.

5. Better communication is needed.  FL needs to commit (if they truly are interested in Journals) to regular updates, whether that is quarterly or something like that.  Much of the frustration was and is avoidable if there is regular updated communication. This has been mentioned so many times on this thread.

6.  The current pricing is actually affordable for those who have previous editions to the Journals.  But for newbies, the current pricing is not realistic in these bundles.  Much better to break up the bundles, find out what the majority of people actually want and sell those journals at market prices.

These are some of the suggestions I have seen on this thread.

Posts 5025
DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 25 2018 2:01 PM

John Duffy:
But there is a two-tier solution already in place. What if basic journals were offered in Vyrso (providing that footnotes are still included and not dropped in the process), with fully tagged journals offered through the pre-pub process in Logos (grouped by popularity/citation as Mark Barnes suggested)? Not ideal, I agree. But arguably better than at present.

The two-tier solution is separated.  A resource in Logos is either and e-book or an full Logos book, what you were suggesting was to have everything as an e-book and then offer upgraded journals to those that wanted to pay for them. And if the two sets of Journals were keep separate with  no overlap between the two formats then there would be complaints about not all journals being equal and questions why does this journal show up in my passage guide, but not that journal. I think for journals they all need to be kept equal. But that's just my thought.

Posts 4763
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 25 2018 3:22 PM

Michael S.:

Master 4.1 preorder for me is $276

Theological Journal 1-20 preorder is $308

For scholarly/ academic purposes, what should I go for (at the present state of things)?

That's not an easy answer to craft. Both have resources with high-volume citations. I can't make your decision for you, but to me it seems that the decision would depend on either a) overall volume of scholarly journals, or b) whichever bundle has the journals you believe have the most utility. The easiest decision is c) BOTH.

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Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 25 2018 4:19 PM

As an example of what FL might do to determine how to bundle at least some journals here are the results of a partial search of the Master Journal contents based on my library of about 10,000 volumes. Obviously, a search of the full FL library would be of greater value.

Where I owned a journal, I eliminated it from my search to eliminate self references.

I only did a sample - choosing journals that would seem to be of academic interest, that were more-or-less current, and that had more than a few years of journals in the bundle. I obviously left a lot of them out. In some cases I used a well-accepted abbreviation of the journal as well as the journal title. This made significant differences in a few case, although it undoubtedly allowed double counting of at least some references.

It's easy to see that if I were interested in chasing down citations, I'd want the most frequently cited journals. Only about eight of those I searched seem to be 'highly' cited and might make a separate, small collection.

Obviously, people use journals in different ways so this is just one way to look at them.

They are listed in order of the number of hits:

1.

2.

3.

4.

5.

6.

7.

8.

9.

10.

11.

12.

13.

Pastor, North Park Baptist Church

Bridgeport, CT USA

Posts 1925
Nathan Parker | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 25 2018 7:16 PM

Phil Gons (Faithlife):

Thanks to all of you for your feedback and passion for Logos and journals. We're far from giving up on journals. Costs are our biggest obstacle, and we're exploring some ways to make them more manageable. Journals are especially challenging, because they're dense, long, technical, and require special tagging. Yet they're also the lowest priced category of resource we sell, by a long shot. The average journal resource (which is often 3 or 4 journal issues) can be 800–1,000 pages. Yet the average price per journal resource is $.50/$1 (depending on which bundle you buy)! As you can see, these factors add up to make producing journals a challenge:

  • a massive category with a nearly limitless number of journals
  • significant diversity of needs and desires from customers
  • one of our most expensive categories of resources to produce
  • among the longest, densest, and most technical resources we produce
  • the lowest price per resource and per page of any resources we produce
  • a smaller niche audience compared to other categories

The easiest way to make things work is through volume, and right now we're not driving enough volume for the numbers to pencil out. So we need to get creative and experiment with pulling some different levers.

We definitely want to keep working, in conversation with you all, to find the right solutions that offer

  • the right set of journals
  • in the right configurations
  • with the right level of tagging and functionality
  • at the right price points
  • available via the right options (purchase vs. ownership subscription vs. access subscription)
  • at the right frequency
  • in a timely manner
  • at a cost that's manageable
  • with financial backing that's sustainable

Many of these ideals are in tension with each other, so we'll have to continue to experiment to find the right set of compromises that work for the most people.

What I'd like to ask is that you give us at least few weeks to engage more fully in this conversation. We're in an exceptionally busy season right now, and several of us will be out of the office soon for ETS/SBL and then be out for Thanksgiving. So the soonest we could give this issue any serious consideration would be the final week of November.

I'm open to hosting a video chat with those who wish you participate in late November or early December. Can we agree on that as a good next step?

I'd definitely like to participate in the video chat when you offer it. My email address is on file if you need to directly message me or send the video chat invite when the time comes.

Nathan Parker

Posts 1925
Nathan Parker | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 25 2018 7:19 PM

Michael S.:

So question to the forum- can someone list the Journals that are most cited in scholarly works?  Does this mean that buying the Master Journal Bundle is overkill?  When I bought the Master bundle 2.1 in December of 2017, that was my first exposure to journals.  I have already benefited from articles in Priscilla Papers, The Southern Baptist Theological Journal, and the Christian History Magazine.  

Master 4.1 preorder for me is $276

Theological Journal 1-20 preorder is $308

For scholarly/ academic purposes, what should I go for (at the present state of things)?

Not sure about everyone here, but the journals that were available from Galaxie TJL in Logos and are available at Galaxie.com were the minimum requirement for me in Bible college and seminary. My professors told me: you need to buy Galaxie TJL in Logos and use the content extensively in your research.

Now that I'm in a PhD program, there's some journals I have to read outside of TJL, but for those, I can easily get the content from my seminary's library if need be. As long as I have Galaxie TJL in Logos (annual updates would work), I'd be more than happy.

Nathan Parker

Posts 2305
Beloved | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 25 2018 7:33 PM

Nathan Parker:
As long as I have Galaxie TJL in Logos (annual updates would work), I'd be more than happy.
 

As a devotional researcher my interests are more than adequately served by the aforementioned resource set. Can we at the very least get timely affordable delivery of these journals please.Yes

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

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