4.0c Beta 1 - Indexing takes a long time

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Ray Timmermans | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 23 2010 7:22 AM | Locked

Thomas Black:

Yes the indexing is painful and complicated by the fact that you're using a beta; but just envision the benefits.  And if you have a dual core system, set the indexer to only be allowed one core if it's slowing your system too much.

Thomas,

I would like to do more than envision the benefits. I would like to experience them. I do not have a dual core system and have no intention of purchasing one in the near future. Logos 4 is a drag on my system resources--especially when indexing. It is a resource hog. I don't feel the inclination to have to purchase entirely new hardware to run this program. This seems like an ill-thought-out development strategy.

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TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 23 2010 7:49 AM | Locked

Ray Timmermans:
I would like to do more than envision the benefits. I would like to experience them.
I understand Ray.  I happen to have an "old" dual core system myself.  (3-4 years old with chances of it getting much older being very good).  I understand that upgrading hardware isn't possible for everyone.

Ray Timmermans:
This seems like an ill-thought-out development strategy.

Many would agree with you it seems.   Mind you that L3 still functions perfectly - that was an intentional move to not replace L3 but to Add L4 because they understood that L4 would be power hungry. 

FWIW I ran L4 during the pre-release beta on an aging P4 laptop and had first hand experience of very long indexing times, and that was an experience repeated several times over!  It was not fun.  So please know that I do understand where you're coming from. 

The indexing is painful especially on slower machines.  The program was designed for machines purchased within the last two years and as such I still don't "qualify" in that sense.  I've been able to upgrade my RAM and Video card a bit, and that has made the whole process much better. 

That said, how much progress have you made on the indexing?

 

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LaRosa Johnson | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 23 2010 8:08 AM | Locked

Ray Timmermans:

I don't feel the inclination to have to purchase entirely new hardware to run this program. This seems like an ill-thought-out development strategy.

I hope I don't come off rude or crass when I say this (and if I do, I apologize), but at what point does a software developer continue to feel an obligation to continue supporting old hardware? When a new version of a software application comes out, as consumers, should we immediately assume that just because we buy it that it should work regardless of the hardware we run it on? I used to be an avid computer gamer (before finally giving that up permanently for console systems [i.e. Xbox 360 & the like]), and there were several titles that I would purchase annually when the new version came out. I would buy the new version, but I always came in with the expectation that it was going to run slower & have performance issues because: 1) I'm still running the same hardware, and 2) they've made improvements to the game that demand newer hardware in order for me to take advantage of those benefits. Now, I didn't complain or moan when my games ran slower because I knew that it was my system that was the problem, not the software. Just like with all of the people that are now upgrading from XP to Windows 7; sure, they may be able to upgrade because they meet system requirements, but that doesn't mean that it's going to run as well as a brand new Windows 7 machine purchased this morning; and that's to be expected.

My point is this, why should a software company stifle their development and not bring out new stuff because they want their product to run on software that is several years old (especially considering the life cycle of most computers these days is roughly 3 years)? As a consumer, I expect software companies to take advantage of the latest technology & tools that are available to them, but realizing that if I'm running an older system, I may need to upgrade to take advantage of what's being offered.

So, is it really an ill thought out development strategy? I don't think so. I think they're doing exactly what they should be, which is keeping up with where computers currently are & are headed.

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Posts 81
Ray Timmermans | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 23 2010 9:20 AM | Locked

Thomas Black:

That said, how much progress have you made on the indexing?

It took about a day and a half and was stuck on "10 hours" remaining for a looooong time....but finally did finished. I certainly hope that development is looking at someway of streamlining the indexing process..either based on library purchases or registration of products--just something to speed this up! What bothers me is the inability to do anything else with my laptop while it decides it needs to index again. It's almost as though it must have a dedicated machine for nothing else than Logos--surely they can't say that that was what they envisioned?! Also I've noticed that my laptop gets very hot during the process of indexing. I think others have mentioned this also.

What I would like to see, if indexing is a must, is a downloadable index based on a customer's purchases. After all, Logos knows what each of us has purchased...certainly enough of us have Scholar's Gold to use that as a base. It certainly would make me feel as though I have a complete program. As it stands it seems like I'm not only running a beta  but an alpha. I was shocked as a beta tester that the 4.0 went to RC

Ray

Posts 81
Ray Timmermans | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 23 2010 11:26 AM | Locked

LaRosa Johnson:

Ray Timmermans:

I don't feel the inclination to have to purchase entirely new hardware to run this program. This seems like an ill-thought-out development strategy.

I hope I don't come off rude or crass when I say this (and if I do, I apologize), but at what point does a software developer continue to feel an obligation to continue supporting old hardware? When a new version of a software application comes out, as consumers, should we immediately assume that just because we buy it that it should work regardless of the hardware we run it on?

Microsoft seems to manage it as do plenty of smaller companies developing products using their platforms.

LaRosa Johnson:

My point is this, why should a software company stifle their development and not bring out new stuff because they want their product to run on software that is several years old (especially considering the life cycle of most computers these days is roughly 3 years)? As a consumer, I expect software companies to take advantage of the latest technology & tools that are available to them, but realizing that if I'm running an older system, I may need to upgrade to take advantage of what's being offered.

In my opinion it is not stifling--it is making them be creative in their problem solving skills--rather than applying a "one size fits all" approach. As a consumer also, after having paid hundreds of dollars to the company for resources, I expect the ability to use them without feeling that I am unofficially on the development team of Logos at my own expense...or that this product really isn't ready for market in its present condition but it's all I got because all my resources have been morphed into Logos 4 format. Please, don't get me wrong, I would love to LOVE Logos 4. I really would--and if they found user-friendly way to create the index on THEIR end I would probably be much happier with their product!

But it is hard to approach Bible study with the thought, "OMG, I have to open Logos 4 again <sigh>"  not knowing if it is going to spend the next day and a half re-indexing.

Posts 8610
TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 23 2010 12:27 PM | Locked

Ray Timmermans:
What I would like to see, if indexing is a must, is a downloadable index based on a customer's purchases. After all, Logos knows what each of us has purchased...certainly enough of us have Scholar's Gold to use that as a base.
I am certain this was discussed during the beta.  At one point I thought it was a done deal; but then apparently not....

IIRC the index would end up being nearly the same size as the Library when shipping (or something related to that).  I'm searching, but can't find that particular bit of information.

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Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 23 2010 6:08 PM | Locked

Thomas Black:

Ray Timmermans:
What I would like to see, if indexing is a must, is a downloadable index based on a customer's purchases. After all, Logos knows what each of us has purchased...certainly enough of us have Scholar's Gold to use that as a base.
I am certain this was discussed during the beta.  At one point I thought it was a done deal; but then apparently not....

IIRC the index would end up being nearly the same size as the Library when shipping (or something related to that).  I'm searching, but can't find that particular bit of information.

Even if the index were the same size as the Library, I think it would be faster to download it than to generate it fresh on one's own machine (depending on your network connection speed) and I'd prefer to have an index come with new resources I buy, which could then be merged (on my machine) in with my existing index. On the other hand, my machine is pretty fast at indexing so I'm not complaining.

Posts 463
George Allakhverdyan | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 23 2010 6:31 PM | Locked

Ray Timmermans:

In my opinion it is not stifling--it is making them be creative in their problem solving skills--rather than applying a "one size fits all" approach. As a consumer also, after having paid hundreds of dollars to the company for resources, I expect the ability to use them without feeling that I am unofficially on the development team of Logos at my own expense...or that this product really isn't ready for market in its present condition but it's all I got because all my resources have been morphed into Logos 4 format. Please, don't get me wrong, I would love to LOVE Logos 4. I really would--and if they found user-friendly way to create the index on THEIR end I would probably be much happier with their product!

But it is hard to approach Bible study with the thought, "OMG, I have to open Logos 4 again <sigh>"  not knowing if it is going to spend the next day and a half re-indexing.

 

This was indeed considered heavily in the past and it can't be set in stone because users purchase new resources pretty often. If we were to have an index for every package and an index for every resource seperately then the issue seems trivial with merging indexes (which would still take some time) like you mention. That being said the merging indexing feature is currently unoptimized and doesn't benefit users, and is still a work in progress. Until it is fixed and until we handle the more prominent features and bugs we can't be certain creating prebuilt indexes to download/ship with the product is worth investing time in at the moment. I will post a link to this thread in the case regarding this issue, maybe if it gains enough popularity the devs can think about implementing it sooner. Thanks.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 23 2010 10:27 PM | Locked

Ray Timmermans:
What I would like to see, if indexing is a must, is a downloadable index based on a customer's purchases.

Remember that the resources that you create for yourself are also indexed. Indexing also takes into account the fact that you have hidden (deleted) resources from the base package. While I agree that indexing can be a pain, I'd rather have Logos staff working on PBB's and lectionaries than indexing. Yes, I have an older machine and a smaller number of resources, but that is my personal preference.

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 24 2010 2:11 PM | Locked

Ray Timmermans:
What I would like to see, if indexing is a must, is a downloadable index based on a customer's purchases. After all, Logos knows what each of us has purchased...certainly enough of us have Scholar's Gold to use that as a base.

You are effectively asking Logos to generate your index and the two indexes would be about 4 GB for any Scholar's library that would have at least 7 GB of resources. Much as I dislike indexing on my laptop, I do have a download cap and would be very unhappy with GB's of extra downloads. Now that I have a quad core desktop I let it generate the indexes and export them to the laptop via Method 2 at http://wiki.logos.com/Quick_Installation_onto_multiple_computers!  I don't mind the laptop performing supplementary (partial) indexing, but I export the resources via Method 3.

Dave
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Posts 81
Ray Timmermans | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 25 2010 9:32 AM | Locked

Ray Timmermans:

In my opinion it is not stifling--it is making them be creative in their problem solving skills--rather than applying a "one size fits all" approach. As a consumer also, after having paid hundreds of dollars to the company for resources, I expect the ability to use them without feeling that I am unofficially on the development team of Logos at my own expense...or that this product really isn't ready for market in its present condition but it's all I got because all my resources have been morphed into Logos 4 format. Please, don't get me wrong, I would love to LOVE Logos 4. I really would--and if they found user-friendly way to create the index on THEIR end I would probably be much happier with their product!

But it is hard to approach Bible study with the thought, "OMG, I have to open Logos 4 again <sigh>"  not knowing if it is going to spend the next day and a half re-indexing.

...like right now a day and a half after an upgrade and re-indexing and then another 100+MB resource update and total re-indexing again...currently timed at "10 hours" but more likely like another day and a half. Totally wasted time.

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 25 2010 5:26 PM | Locked

Ray

My suggestion above may not be possible for you but I always manage my downloads by setting Automatically Download Updates to NO! If I expect some new resources I might allow the download, else I refuse it (by clicking on the X in the notification popup).

Dave
===

Windows 10 & Android 8

Posts 81
Ray Timmermans | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 26 2010 7:27 AM | Locked

Ray Timmermans:

Ray Timmermans:

In my opinion it is not stifling--it is making them be creative in their problem solving skills--rather than applying a "one size fits all" approach. As a consumer also, after having paid hundreds of dollars to the company for resources, I expect the ability to use them without feeling that I am unofficially on the development team of Logos at my own expense...or that this product really isn't ready for market in its present condition but it's all I got because all my resources have been morphed into Logos 4 format. Please, don't get me wrong, I would love to LOVE Logos 4. I really would--and if they found user-friendly way to create the index on THEIR end I would probably be much happier with their product!

But it is hard to approach Bible study with the thought, "OMG, I have to open Logos 4 again <sigh>"  not knowing if it is going to spend the next day and a half re-indexing.

...like right now a day and a half after an upgrade and re-indexing and then another 100+MB resource update and total re-indexing again...currently timed at "10 hours" but more likely like another day and a half. Totally wasted time.

 

It is 10:25 AM (eastern time) the following day with "35 minutes" remaining on the new indexing.

Posts 463
George Allakhverdyan | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 29 2010 11:19 AM | Locked

Ray Timmermans:

Ray Timmermans:

Ray Timmermans:

In my opinion it is not stifling--it is making them be creative in their problem solving skills--rather than applying a "one size fits all" approach. As a consumer also, after having paid hundreds of dollars to the company for resources, I expect the ability to use them without feeling that I am unofficially on the development team of Logos at my own expense...or that this product really isn't ready for market in its present condition but it's all I got because all my resources have been morphed into Logos 4 format. Please, don't get me wrong, I would love to LOVE Logos 4. I really would--and if they found user-friendly way to create the index on THEIR end I would probably be much happier with their product!

But it is hard to approach Bible study with the thought, "OMG, I have to open Logos 4 again <sigh>"  not knowing if it is going to spend the next day and a half re-indexing.

...like right now a day and a half after an upgrade and re-indexing and then another 100+MB resource update and total re-indexing again...currently timed at "10 hours" but more likely like another day and a half. Totally wasted time.

 

 

It is 10:25 AM (eastern time) the following day with "35 minutes" remaining on the new indexing.

How big is your library? What is your computer specs?

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