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Paul Golder | Forum Activity | Posted: Fri, Jun 19 2009 4:04 PM

George Somsel:

BrianWhalen:

BrianWhalen:

Since Logos seems to allow 2 installs/license, I am very much looking at this as a way to have mobile Bibleage.  Quickly look up verses, use my preferred translation instead of listening to the Eugene Peterson paraphrase when it appears...

Now, now, that's not nice.  Peterson is actually pretty good.  You simply don't like it because it doesn't sound very biblical.

I'll just say it shouldn't be preached from without great caution and leave it at that, we should start a new thread if you want to discuss further.


Have you ever had the opportunity to hear someone read from it and then say "Now that's what the Bible should say...""

 

"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."

Posts 67
Brian Whalen | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 19 2009 4:11 PM

I have not had the experience you mention, for personal reading, in addition to a more literal translation, I have no problem with it.  For evangelizing to a friend, probably good there too, as long as you are careful to not skew truth.  However, the penalty for adding to or taking away from God's word is severe, I want no part of that.

I view paraphrases as a whole as good additions, especially for people who have a mental barrier about that ole King James or something like that.  I just don't believe they should be THE resource.  If you use one in preaching, you take that risk.

Brian Whalen

http://www.mcnazarene.com

Posts 1674
Paul Golder | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 19 2009 4:39 PM

BrianWhalen:

I have not had the experience you mention, for personal reading, in addition to a more literal translation, I have no problem with it.  For evangelizing to a friend, probably good there too, as long as you are careful to not skew truth.  However, the penalty for adding to or taking away from God's word is severe, I want no part of that.

I view paraphrases as a whole as good additions, especially for people who have a mental barrier about that ole King James or something like that.  I just don't believe they should be THE resource.  If you use one in preaching, you take that risk.

In reality the only problem that I have with it is how people take it. In the traditional paraphrase, the translator is trying to convey the ideas in the passage using modern idioms, language, and "phraseology". But in Peterson's work, it reads as a long sermon on the whole Bible, and even more so that in prior paraphrases you get the authors opinion on how the Scripture should not only read, but on how it should be taken.

I fear that most members of the Body can not recognize the distinction..

 

 

"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."

Posts 67
Brian Whalen | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 19 2009 10:21 PM

I really do enjoy some of Peterson's other work, for example The Contemplative Pastor was a very good read, encouraging pastors to focus on souls and important things as opposed to miscellaneous stuff.  Right now, I'm an NASB/ESV guy 95% of the time.  I have a difficult time with serious study of a thought for thought translation, as opposed to word for word.  So, for me, fine for reading, not for preaching or serious study.  I do own other paraphrases, the first one I bought was Rob Lacey's Word on the Street.  This too is defintely not a literal translation, but an interesting read nonetheless.

Brian Whalen

http://www.mcnazarene.com

Posts 2793
J.R. Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 20 2009 12:53 AM

It is a commentary, published as a Bible... It would be like my United Methodist friends taking John Wesle's commentary on the Bible and using it to evangelize or as a devotional.. interesting, but not the Scripture.

The Message is NOT a Bible Translation-Part 1 

my 2cents 

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Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 20 2009 5:57 AM

Joe Miller:

It is a commentary, published as a Bible... It would be like my United Methodist friends taking John Wesle's commentary on the Bible and using it to evangelize or as a devotional.. interesting, but not the Scripture.

The Message is NOT a Bible Translation-Part 1 

my 2cents 

More like ⅛ ¢.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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Ted Hans | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 20 2009 7:46 AM

Joe Miller:

It is a commentary, published as a Bible... It would be like my United Methodist friends taking John Wesle's commentary on the Bible and using it to evangelize or as a devotional.. interesting, but not the Scripture.

The Message is NOT a Bible Translation-Part 1 

my 2cents 

Great post Joe my thoughts exactly.

Ted

Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ

Posts 2744
Bohuslav Wojnar | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 20 2009 1:36 PM

If the Message was good enough for the Apostle Paul, why it would not be good enough for me? Big Smile (Kind of KJV joke.) It reminds me many years ago on the one of my first trips to the USA one man trying to convince me that only KJV is the real translation, chosen by God. He offered me even some book writen on that subject. I asked him what shel I do with all our people in Czech, when nobody understand KJV. What are we to do? He had no answer. It was obvious he had never thought outside of the USA box. I found it really funny.

Bohuslav

Posts 129
John McComb | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 20 2009 2:02 PM

Bohuslav Wojnar:

It reminds me many years ago on the one of my first trips to the USA one man trying to convince me that only KJV is the real translation, chosen by God. He offered me even some book writen on that subject.

If nothing can be trusted but the KJV what does that say about his book?

Years ago I got into a long online discussion with a new age preterist. I would point things out to him like quotes from people like Polycarp or Irenæus that fully supported (confirmed?) the traditional view and his answer was always the same. It's not scripture so it can't be trusted. I found his arguments disorganized and irrational. His solution for that? Go read this book, written and published by some guy who has a preterist web site. Whatever this book is it must be scripture because apparently that dude can be trusted.

Yours in Christ

John

Posts 390
Alain Maashe | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 20 2009 2:26 PM

Joe,

It is a commentary indeed and a bad one at that (since it often fails to convey the meaning and the nuances of the text)

For me the message epitomizes everything that is wrong with human centered preaching and teaching. I must conform my thoughts and understanding to Him, not the other way around.

English is my second language, as such I have no sympathy for those that are too lazy to read a translation, even one using dynamic equivalency like the NIV and the NET  in their own language.(as opposed to relying on the watered down commentary found in the message)

I have too much respect for the Bible to replace it with my own commentary

So what if some do not want to put in the effort to read and understand a legitimate translation?

This is more likely a symptom of a deeper spiritual problem that will not be solved by merely updating the language

Just like you do not cure alcoholism but prescribing more alcohol, you do not solve the “dumbing down”  of Christianity (which is a reflection of what is happening in the larger society) by prescribing a dumbed down commentary masquerading as a translation  

The least common denominator is not the way to go

That is why to the message I say away you go  J

Alain

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Ted Hans | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 20 2009 3:22 PM

Alain Maashe:

Joe,

It is a commentary indeed and a bad one at that (since it often fails to convey the meaning and the nuances of the text)

For me the message epitomizes everything that is wrong with human centered preaching and teaching. I must conform my thoughts and understanding to Him, not the other way around.

English is my second language, as such I have no sympathy for those that are too lazy to read a translation, even one using dynamic equivalency like the NIV and the NET  in their own language.(as opposed to relying on the watered down commentary found in the message)

I have too much respect for the Bible to replace it with my own commentary

So what if some do not want to put in the effort to read and understand a legitimate translation?

This is more likely a symptom of a deeper spiritual problem that will not be solved by merely updating the language

Just like you do not cure alcoholism but prescribing more alcohol, you do not solve the “dumbing down”  of Christianity (which is a reflection of what is happening in the larger society) by prescribing a dumbed down commentary masquerading as a translation  

The least common denominator is not the way to go

That is why to the message I say away you go  J

Alain

Well said Alain, are you some college Prof/scholar or something? You seem to know what your are talking about and capture my thoughts well. You write well and your post make more sense to me and i shall be looking out for more of them. Do have a website?

Ted  

Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 20 2009 4:00 PM

Ted Hans:

Well said Alain, are you some college Prof/scholar or something? You seem to know what your are talking about and capture my thoughts well. You write well and your post make more sense to me and i shall be looking out for more of them. Do have a website?

Ted  

No, he teaches at Liberty.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 1674
Paul Golder | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 20 2009 4:11 PM

Bohuslav Wojnar:

...It was obvious he had never thought outside of the USA box. I found it really funny.

I though that all worldwide theological thought must conform to US standards. There can't be anyone out there but us, can there? Smile

 

 

"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."

Posts 390
Alain Maashe | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 20 2009 4:34 PM

Ted,

 I do not have a website I am just a lowly seminary student at DTS preparing for his comprehensive exams.

 I am told by those who cut me a paycheck that I am some sort of professor in their online program but I do not necessarily believe them Smile

Scholar? Not me! That was my goal when I started seminary, now, the only thing I know for certain is the inadequacy of my knowledge and skills and the vanity of the whole pursuit even though I try to excel at what I do (the Lord has been busy working on me in that respect, this is not false modesty)

There is indeed one thing George and I can readily agree on, Alain is no scholar Stick out tongue

 Alain

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Ted Hans | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 20 2009 4:34 PM

George Somsel:

No, he teaches at Liberty.

Thanks George - i have found his views on the high view of scripture to be similar to mine.

Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ

Posts 2831
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Ted Hans | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 20 2009 4:40 PM

Alain Maashe:

Ted,

 I do not have a website I am just a lowly seminary student at DTS preparing for his comprehensive exams.

 I am told by those who cut me a paycheck that I am some sort of professor in their online program but I do not necessarily believe them Smile

Scholar? Not me! That was my goal when I started seminary, now, the only thing I know for certain is the inadequacy of my knowledge and skills and the vanity of the whole pursuit even though I try to excel at what I do (the Lord has been busy working on me in that respect, this is not false modesty)

There is indeed one thing George and I can readily agree on, Alain is no scholar Stick out tongue

 Alain

Thanks Alain for responding i have appreciated your post and look forward to more. I was beginning to think i was the only one who shared such a view.

Ted

Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ

Posts 2793
J.R. Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 23 2009 10:15 AM

Ted Hans:

Joe Miller:

It is a commentary, published as a Bible... It would be like my United Methodist friends taking John Wesle's commentary on the Bible and using it to evangelize or as a devotional.. interesting, but not the Scripture.

The Message is NOT a Bible Translation-Part 1 

my 2cents 

 

Great post Joe my thoughts exactly.

Ted

Ted, George, etc... glad you dug the post.

I also agree that as a commentary, it is very poor.  If you look at the verse by verse comparison in my post, you will notice that Peterson inserts much of his own theology and distorts many biblical concepts. 

My Books in Logos & FREE Training

Posts 2793
J.R. Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 23 2009 10:18 AM

Alain Maashe:
 I do not have a website I am just a lowly seminary student at DTS preparing for his comprehensive exams.
Paul made tents, and I make websites.  As a bi-vocational church planter, I can take care of that for you if you want a website designed Wink

http://www.morethancake.org/designs

My Books in Logos & FREE Training

Posts 2831
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Ted Hans | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 23 2009 10:30 AM

 

Joe Miller:

Alain Maashe:
 I do not have a website I am just a lowly seminary student at DTS preparing for his comprehensive exams.
Paul made tents, and I make websites.  As a bi-vocational church planter, I can take care of that for you if you want a website designed Wink

http://www.morethancake.org/designs

Hi Joe how are you getting on with Karl Barth. Hope you are are enjoying himWink

Regards

Ted

Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 23 2009 12:27 PM

Joe Miller:

Ted Hans:

Joe Miller:

It is a commentary, published as a Bible... It would be like my United Methodist friends taking John Wesle's commentary on the Bible and using it to evangelize or as a devotional.. interesting, but not the Scripture.

The Message is NOT a Bible Translation-Part 1 

my 2cents 

 

Great post Joe my thoughts exactly.

Ted

Ted, George, etc... glad you dug the post.

I also agree that as a commentary, it is very poor.  If you look at the verse by verse comparison in my post, you will notice that Peterson inserts much of his own theology and distorts many biblical concepts. 

I don't know how much original languages training you have had, but, with the little that I have looked at Peterson, he appears to be reasonably accurate even if he is a bit unconventional.  Of course, being unconventional is the whole idea behind his translation.  As Wayne Leman, who was a SIL translator and who runs a Bible Translation list, says, we must avoid "biblish" if we are to be understood by the average Joe or Jo.  I haven't delved into it enough to comment on any theological perspective it has, but I didn't note anything in what I read.  Some live by 6,000 translations, but I prefer to go to the original and therefore don't get too excited by what a particular translation might have.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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