NASB in Paragraph Format

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Posts 1
Greg Pickle | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 5 2017 12:49 PM | Locked

Kyle G. Anderson:

We're looking into improvements to the visual filter.

This wasn't a change that came out of nowhere. NASB95 has been a tricky Bible for years.

When it was in a one verse/one line format it bothered the people who preferred the paragraph formatting. As an aid for those who preferred the one verse/one line it was formatted with bold verse indicators and/or first words of a new line to indicate paragraphs. This also received numerous complaints and typo reports.

As a compromise we converted it to the paragraph styling. Those who preferred paragraphs now could read with paragraphs and those who preferred one verse/one line could use the visual filter. To us, this seemed an agreeable mediating position.

It appears this exposed some weaknesses with the visual filter that we're addressing.

Thank you for the explanation.

I haven't seen mentioned that the reason the one verse/one line format is so appealing is that it matches many of our hard-copy NASBs, so it's a seamless transition between digital and print for those of us dinosaurs who still carry a print Bible into the pulpit. It also better fits the type of study many of us primarily use Logos for - word-by-word, verse-by-verse exegesis, rather than sitting down to read large sections at a time. This is, no doubt, why some people chose the NASB at all to begin with. I still have a hard time preaching from my paragraph-format ESV when the need arises. 

In other words, it's not just resistance to change, but desire for a format that aligns most closely with our day-to-day work. 

I understand you're in a tough spot, but any efforts you could make to provide a natural line-by-line option that doesn't demand a visual filter would be tremendously appreciated!

Posts 283
Jerry Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 5 2017 1:31 PM | Locked

Greg Pickle:

Thank you for the explanation.

I haven't seen mentioned that the reason the one verse/one line format is so appealing is that it matches many of our hard-copy NASBs, so it's a seamless transition between digital and print for those of us dinosaurs who still carry a print Bible into the pulpit. It also better fits the type of study many of us primarily use Logos for - word-by-word, verse-by-verse exegesis, rather than sitting down to read large sections at a time. This is, no doubt, why some people chose the NASB at all to begin with. I still have a hard time preaching from my paragraph-format ESV when the need arises. 

In other words, it's not just resistance to change, but desire for a format that aligns most closely with our day-to-day work. 

I understand you're in a tough spot, but any efforts you could make to provide a natural line-by-line option that doesn't demand a visual filter would be tremendously appreciated!

Well said! Another dinosaur!

Posts 136
Willie | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 5 2017 11:05 PM | Locked

Greg Pickle:

I haven't seen mentioned that the reason the one verse/one line format is so appealing is that it matches many of our hard-copy NASBs, so it's a seamless transition between digital and print for those of us dinosaurs who still carry a print Bible into the pulpit. It also better fits the type of study many of us primarily use Logos for - word-by-word, verse-by-verse exegesis, rather than sitting down to read large sections at a time. This is, no doubt, why some people chose the NASB at all to begin with. I still have a hard time preaching from my paragraph-format ESV when the need arises. 

In other words, it's not just resistance to change, but desire for a format that aligns most closely with our day-to-day work. 

Greg - Thank you for so perfectly expressing the underlying reasons why this issue is so important to me.  The NASB’s verse format has unique characteristics not found in any other Bible of which I’m aware which makes it perfect for my personal study needs and yes, this is why I chose it to begin with. 

Greg Pickle:

I understand you're in a tough spot, but any efforts you could make to provide a natural line-by-line option that doesn't demand a visual filter would be tremendously appreciated!

I also would rather not have to depend on a visual filter for the following reasons:

  1. With features such as visual filters, Faithlife seems to like standardization.  That is understandable; however, this means the finished “one verse per line” visual filter, although improved, will most likely look the same for all Bibles.  This will almost certainly require omitting at least some of the unique characteristics of the publisher’s NASB verse format since some of those characteristics are not found in any other Bible. (I sincerely hope I’m wrong about this!)
  2. Even if Faithlife were to design a unique visual filter only for the NASB which reproduces the publisher’s original verse format exactly as it appeared in Logos before, the issue with the Copy Bible Verses tool would still have to be addressed (restoration of the recently removed “fully formatted” verse styles).

Rather than relying on a visual filter, Faithlife could design a user controlled option for the NASB specifically, to change the default format from paragraph to verse format.  I assume switching to default verse format would also automatically restore the recently removed “fully formatted” verse styles within the Copy Bible Verses tool.  If not, this would have to be addressed as well.   

However, I continue to believe the best and simplest solution is for Faithlife to allow customers to purchase the Lockman Foundation’s original verse formatted NASB or the current paragraph format as separate resources.  Purchasing the NASB’s verse formatted version would ensure that everything appears exactly as previously existed in Logos (default verse formatting, Copy Bible Verses style, and Print/Export documents). 

Posts 4171
Disciple of Christ (doc) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 6 2017 12:04 AM | Locked

The reason I used the NASB95 for study purposes was it's one verse per line format. I don't use it as a translation for reading so don't care for having a paragraph formatted version.

I acknowledge FL is between a rock and a hard place on this one in terms of satisfying both groups of users but...

I believe it would be wrong if we were forced to pay for another copy of this resource in the original one verse per line format when that is what we purchased in the first place. This was taken away from us as the default viewing option by a decision of FL employees - without enough thought of the implications IMHO. While I respect your concerns about the no longer having a digital version that matches your print version - and I believe FL has a responsibilty to correct this las they are the ones responible for the decision that broke this continuity, two wrongs don't make a right. So respectfully Willie your suggestion that you and any other user should have to pay a second time to get back what you paid for in the first place is wrong. I do not support it, but I do support your call for FL to  make right what they have broken.

Willie:

However, I continue to believe the best and simplest solution is for Faithlife to allow customers to purchase the Lockman Foundation’s original verse formatted NASB or the current paragraph format as separate resources.  Purchasing the NASB’s verse formatted version would ensure that everything appears exactly as previously existed in Logos (default verse formatting, Copy Bible Verses style, and Print/Export documents). 

Posts 136
Willie | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 6 2017 12:55 AM | Locked

Disciple of Christ (doc):

I believe it would be wrong if we were forced to pay for another copy of this resource in the original one verse per line format when that is what we purchased in the first place.

Hi doc,

All your points are good ones.  I appreciate your feedback.  I struggled a lot with this one before suggesting it.  I agree it's not an ideal suggestion.  Perhaps Faithlife would be willing to just make two resources available at no additional charge (one default verse formatted and one default paragraph formatted) for anyone who owns the NASB? 

It would not be completely unprecedented.  Most of us own two versions of the NET Bible and did not have to pay for the second one.

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alabama24 | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 6 2017 4:10 AM | Locked

Willie:
Perhaps Faithlife would be willing to just make two resources available at no additional charge (one default verse formatted and one default paragraph formatted) for anyone who owns the NASB? 

I previously requested this, but haven't heard back from FL. I'll follow up. 

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Posts 168
Kiyah | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 6 2017 6:19 AM | Locked

I agree with Willie. They could offer them as a set, kind of like the KJV with Apocrypha is actually two resources. They could have one NASB download that has 2 resources in it (NASB95 and NASB95 Paragraph Edition). Then everyone would have both editions if they own the NASB. This happened when I got the BHS SESB 2.0, I ended up with two resources that are different in terms of file format (.logos4 and .lbxlls). They've already created both resources so I wouldn't think it would be extra work.

I certainly hope I get to keep the paragraph version free of charge, but I definitely understand the frustration of folks who use the NASB specifically for its verse-by-verse format.

Posts 1
JONN PAUL | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 6 2017 6:58 AM | Locked

As a subscriber and ongoing customer (at least currently), a couple of notes....

This actually was a change that came out of nowhere. I was given no notice, and like others have been fiddling with settings trying to restore my NASB Bible. I have used the NASB 95 verse format since I first purchased Logos many years ago, and it is by far my preference for adding notes.

To me, after so many years of relying upon this for my preparation, I believe a "compromise" and "agreeable mediating position" by Logos would have been to add a visual filter to convert it to paragraph for those few who wanted it. Those who have been happy with the verse format shouldn't have to express their happiness to retain it.

I still don't know where this visual filter is...

I believe I am reasonable in being very disappointed in Logos. There are other excellent online Bible resources that are free. Honestly, it has been a struggle to decide whether to purchase my books paperback, or as I have as of late purchasing resources through Logos to read on screen. Since we can so easily lose control of what we have purchased, I think I have my answer for future purchases.

 

Posts 383
Bobby Terhune | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 6 2017 6:59 AM | Locked

I've used the NASB95 for 20 years, and for studying I welcome the change to paragraph formatting. It's more natural for reading, and it helps reinforce that principal of exegesis called "Context". I have to be honest, in the past it was easy to miss the paragraph starts and endings. So all things said, I welcome the change, and this brings it into conformity with virtually all other modern translations.

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 6 2017 7:46 AM | Locked

JONN PAUL:
I still don't know where this visual filter is...

Welcome Big Smile

The "One verse per line" is in the Visual Filter (three dots) menu under Bible Text Only under RESOURCE

Looking forward to "One verse per line" improvement.

JONN PAUL:
To me, after so many years of relying upon this for my preparation, I believe a "compromise" and "agreeable mediating position" by Logos would have been to add a visual filter to convert it to paragraph for those few who wanted it.

Appreciate anguish while being Thankful for paragraph format change to be like most Logos Bibles. Apologies since personally not like one verse printed format due to uninspired placement of verse numbers, which lacks correspondence with original language: e.g. one verse can have 4 Greek sentences while Ephesians 1:3-14 is one Greek sentence. Philippians 4:6 has verse number in the middle of a sentence (so a significant phrase is left dangling at the end of verse 5). Personal work around with line numbers has been using Propositional outlines: (with visual filters)

In hindsight, perhaps paragraph formatted NASB95 should have been released to beta testers first (near the beginning of a release cycle).

JONN PAUL:
Honestly, it has been a struggle to decide whether to purchase my books paperback, or as I have as of late purchasing resources through Logos to read on screen. Since we can so easily lose control of what we have purchased, I think I have my answer for future purchases.

Thankful for a larger digital library having more results when searching for topical articles and chapters (along with being amazed by speed of Logos/Verbum for searching 20,000+ resources). Also can find variant spellings.

Keep Smiling Smile

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alabama24 | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 6 2017 7:49 AM | Locked

JONN PAUL:
I believe a "compromise" and "agreeable mediating position" by Logos would have been to add a visual filter to convert it to paragraph for those few who wanted it.

That does exist, and has existed for many years. It doesn't, however, reproduce an exact replica of what you had before. 

JONN PAUL:
I still don't know where this visual filter is...

The visual filter menu is a resource specific feature... look for the "three circles" icon in the resource pane. You will then look for "one verse per line" under "bible text only." See screenshot. 

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 6 2017 12:20 PM | Locked

alabama24:

JONN PAUL:
I believe a "compromise" and "agreeable mediating position" by Logos would have been to add a visual filter to convert it to paragraph for those few who wanted it.

That does exist, and has existed for many years. It doesn't, however, reproduce an exact replica of what you had before. 

You seem to have misread the post—Jonn Paul would have preferred the original verse format with the visual filter to display paragraph. What we now have is the reverse of that.

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Kyle G. Anderson | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 6 2017 2:29 PM | Locked

Just a heads up. We aren't ignoring this. I'll have more information tomorrow.

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alabama24 | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 6 2017 2:49 PM | Locked

You are right Jack, I did misread it  

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Posts 136
Willie | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 6 2017 5:58 PM | Locked

alabama24:

Willie:
Perhaps Faithlife would be willing to just make two resources available at no additional charge (one default verse formatted and one default paragraph formatted) for anyone who owns the NASB? 

I previously requested this, but haven't heard back from FL. I'll follow up. 

Thanks a lot!  

Posts 136
Willie | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 6 2017 6:10 PM | Locked

Kyle,

Thanks for the update.  Please see Kiyah’s comments below in which he explains very well how Faithlife could make two resources available at no additional charge (one default verse formatted and one default paragraph formatted) for anyone who owns the NASB.  This would completely satisfy both groups.

Kiyah:

They could offer them as a set, kind of like the KJV with Apocrypha is actually two resources. They could have one NASB download that has 2 resources in it (NASB95 and NASB95 Paragraph Edition). Then everyone would have both editions if they own the NASB. This happened when I got the BHS SESB 2.0, I ended up with two resources that are different in terms of file format (.logos4 and .lbxlls). They've already created both resources so I wouldn't think it would be extra work.

I fear relying on a visual filter to address this problem will be unsuccessful because of the likely omission of several unique characteristics of the publisher’s NASB verse format which are not found in any other Bible.  In addition it will do nothing to restore the “fully formatted” verse styles which were removed from the Copy Bible Verses tool.  Finally, it will not fully restore the verse format capability that was lost with the Print/Export feature since that function will be based on the imperfect visual filter.

I have no doubt your work on the visual filter will benefit all other Bibles, but with the NASB, you have a better option (the publisher’s original verse format).   

Posts 168
Kiyah | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 6 2017 9:27 PM | Locked

Willie:

Kyle,

Thanks for the update.  Please see Kiyah’s comments below in which he explains...

She. Smile

Posts 136
Willie | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 6 2017 9:47 PM | Locked

Kiyah:

She. Smile

I'm sorry Kiyah!!  Bad assumption on my part.

Thanks for sharing the great explanation and examples. 

Posts 2
Kurt Niemeyer | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 7 2017 6:45 AM | Locked

Thank you, I am very much looking forward to having my NASB single line format restored.  The visual filter simply isn't visually appealing.

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Kyle G. Anderson | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 7 2017 4:44 PM | Locked

Kyle G. Anderson:

Just a heads up. We aren't ignoring this. I'll have more information tomorrow.

And by "tomorrow" I mean Thursday. I was getting ready to unveil our plan when I got some new information today that could alter things a bit. Thanks.

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