NASB in Paragraph Format

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This post has 229 Replies | 3 Followers

Posts 666
James McAdams | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 21 2017 1:23 AM | Locked

Disciple of Christ (doc):

FL leadership refusing to answer your question is the equivalent of the somebody making a rude gesture.

Don't be daft. Failing to answer one forum post directly (out of a ton) while actively working on addressing the issue raised in broad terms and regularly communicating their progress/intent is hardly the same as a rude gesture. It just isn't.

Loads of people campaigned for Faithlife to update the resource to paragraph formatting, and they did so. They realised that people weren't happy with the visual filter to display verses on new lines, so they've released multiple updates in a short span of time to improve the behaviour and confirmed that they're still working on it now.

Posts 4829
DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 23 2017 5:11 PM | Locked

James McAdams:
Don't be daft.

James you make a lot of valuable contributions to these forums with your questions about FL's products and your sharing of your experiences and learnings about the products.  This is not one of your finest moments.

You have allowed yourself to fall into the trap of attacking a fellow customer because you don't share their experience of the company or view on this particular issue. These forums are for all customers to provide feedback, whether it be positive or negative, in regards to their experiences with the company and it's products.

A customer focused company wants to know what both engages and disengages their customers and will respond to both of these scenarios. Customers who are disengaged by the actions of FL on this issue feel their concerns and in particular a direct question on the topic are not being answered adequately.

You do not have a right to tell disengaged customers their feedback is not welcome because you consider it 'daft'.  And sadly it has not been you alone.  There have been others from the paragraph format camp who think the appropriate way to deal with this divide is to attack the person instead of simply sticking to sharing their views and experiences. On the other hand I can't recall one person who prefers the original format launch an attack against the person of someone of the opposing view. We have simply stuck to highlighting the fact we are not happy with the way FL has handle this and are not happy they are not answering direct questions that have been raised.

James McAdams:
They realised that people weren't happy with the visual filter to display verses on new lines, so they've released multiple updates in a short span of time to improve the behaviour and confirmed that they're still working on it now.

If you were being balanced and fair James you would recognise like Randy that FL has made a few mistakes in the handling of this issue and its FL's lack of openness in admitting the same re-enforces my view they are being rude towards a segment of their customers.

Randy W. Sims:

I agree that FL made a few mistakes: a) releasing without better testing, and b) by not ensuring that line-by-line was the default.

And I know it's the accumulation of similar goofs over the years that makes it worse.

FL over the years have not learnt from their 'similar goofs'.  They get an idea in their head, don't fully think through all the issues and impacts upon customers and run with the idea prematurely and then afterwards expect customers to sit back and accept the mess they create while they fix it up after the action has been thrust upon customers. 

James I have read all of the posts on this topic, I am well aware of this fact and if you have read everything you would see that I have at one point made acknowledgement of their efforts.  My concern is not with efforts of those who are trying to improve the visual filter. I recognise this is probably taking them away from other things they might have been otherwise focusing on improving and they are doing their best in a short time frame to get updates out. The problem you are missing because you have decided others are not allowed to share a view point different to yours is that the leadership of FL are not answering directly how they are going to give back to those who had taken away from them something they paid for and never asked to be changed because it was not broken. Whether you agree or not the behavior of the leadership of FL towards customers seeking answers to these questions is rude.

Posts 650
Alex Scott | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 23 2017 9:00 PM | Locked

Disciple of Christ (doc):

James McAdams:
Don't be daft.

James you make a lot of valuable contributions to these forums with your questions about FL's products and your sharing of your experiences and learnings about the products.  This is not one of your finest moments.

You have allowed yourself to fall into the trap of attacking a fellow customer because you don't share their experience of the company or view on this particular issue. These forums are for all customers to provide feedback, whether it be positive or negative, in regards to their experiences with the company and it's products.

A customer focused company wants to know what both engages and disengages their customers and will respond to both of these scenarios. Customers who are disengaged by the actions of FL on this issue feel their concerns and in particular a direct question on the topic are not being answered adequately.

You do not have a right to tell disengaged customers their feedback is not welcome because you consider it 'daft'.  And sadly it has not been you alone.  There have been others from the paragraph format camp who think the appropriate way to deal with this divide is to attack the person instead of simply sticking to sharing their views and experiences. On the other hand I can't recall one person who prefers the original format launch an attack against the person of someone of the opposing view. We have simply stuck to highlighting the fact we are not happy with the way FL has handle this and are not happy they are not answering direct questions that have been raised.

James McAdams:
They realised that people weren't happy with the visual filter to display verses on new lines, so they've released multiple updates in a short span of time to improve the behaviour and confirmed that they're still working on it now.

If you were being balanced and fair James you would recognise like Randy that FL has made a few mistakes in the handling of this issue and its FL's lack of openness in admitting the same re-enforces my view they are being rude towards a segment of their customers.

Randy W. Sims:

I agree that FL made a few mistakes: a) releasing without better testing, and b) by not ensuring that line-by-line was the default.

And I know it's the accumulation of similar goofs over the years that makes it worse.

FL over the years have not learnt from their 'similar goofs'.  They get an idea in their head, don't fully think through all the issues and impacts upon customers and run with the idea prematurely and then afterwards expect customers to sit back and accept the mess they create while they fix it up after the action has been thrust upon customers. 

James I have read all of the posts on this topic, I am well aware of this fact and if you have read everything you would see that I have at one point made acknowledgement of their efforts.  My concern is not with efforts of those who are trying to improve the visual filter. I recognise this is probably taking them away from other things they might have been otherwise focusing on improving and they are doing their best in a short time frame to get updates out. The problem you are missing because you have decided others are not allowed to share a view point different to yours is that the leadership of FL are not answering directly how they are going to give back to those who had taken away from them something they paid for and never asked to be changed because it was not broken. Whether you agree or not the behavior of the leadership of FL towards customers seeking answers to these questions is rude.

Yes

Longtime Logos user (more than $30,000 in purchases) - now a second class user because I won't pay them more every month or year.

Posts 666
James McAdams | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 24 2017 5:22 AM | Locked

Disciple of Christ (doc):

You have allowed yourself to fall into the trap of attacking a fellow customer because you don't share their experience of the company or view on this particular issue.

I haven’t attacked anyone. I told someone not to be daft. That’s not an attack. Faithlife answered the request of a ton of people by providing paragraph formatting. In doing so, they failed to see how it might offend those who prefered the old formatting. Since discovering that, they’ve acted to fix it. They’ve been advised that their fixes still fall short, so they’ve said they’re working on it.

It was suggested that they stop working on it and revert back to the old file, and they haven’t responded to that very specific request yet. Arguably not ideal. But I think equating that shortcoming with a rude gesture is daft. It’s not. They’re clearly working on the issue, they clearly care about what’s being said.

the solution being suggested means that everyone would have to have two seperate resources for the same text (though the suggestion has tended to be framed in such a way that the people who prefer paragraph formatting should be dismissed altogether). That might be the best solution for some, but it’s not the best solution for others. I think they could acknowldege the option (though I don’t think they’re obligated to do so immediately), and possibly even agree to it. But given that other customers/needs exist and their resources are finite, a bit of a delay is not a rude gesture. It’s not obvious that it’s a gesture of any kind.

Posts 3091
Whyndell Gizzard | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 24 2017 6:54 AM | Locked

I would not like it if they revert back to line format- I find no shortcomings with how I use the paragraph format.

Posts 508
Bobby Terhune | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 24 2017 8:25 AM | Locked

I prefer the paragraph format as well. The original NASB 1977 was in paragraph format originally, When the 1995 revision came out it got changed to verse format.

Posts 4742
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 24 2017 8:42 AM | Locked

Whyndell Grizzard:

I would not like it if they revert back to line format-

Tough, but they don't have much choice. They face legal action if they don't return what they've stolen.

Taking from Peter to pay Paul is never a good option.

Posts 3091
Whyndell Gizzard | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 24 2017 9:14 AM | Locked

David Paul:

Whyndell Grizzard:

I would not like it if they revert back to line format-

Tough, but they don't have much choice. They face legal action if they don't return what they've stolen.

Taking from Peter to pay Paul is never a good option.

What an asinine comment to make- go ahead and sue.

Posts 4742
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 24 2017 11:05 AM | Locked

Say whatever you want. There's ONE Bible that has line-per-verse formatting, and rather than be content with ALL BUT ONE, folks like you want ALL. This whole scenario reminds me of 2 Sam. 12:1-5. In this dispute, there's a safe side to be on, and there's a side that reaps whirlwind. If I wasn't using L3 right now, I would be dead in the water. My 20 years investment in Logos--and I'm talking about my time investment in terms of making thousands of notes rather than the $35K+ financial hook--would be essentially obliterated. MY LIFE IS IN THOSE NOTES and they are enmeshed in my copy of NASB95. I'm not going to let that disappear without a fight. So, yeah, if it's necessary, I'll gather all of those who feel the same way and will do whatever it takes to stay alive--because that's what this is for me.

Posts 508
Bobby Terhune | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 24 2017 11:44 AM | Locked

David,

I may be mistaken but I would like to believe your notes will be fine in the paragraph version. You may want try that out on a test system. By the way the new notes version my be more to your liking than the current version we now have. Then you could migrate "Libby" to the newest version of notes.

Posts 772
JRS | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 24 2017 11:56 AM | Locked

Hmmm ... 1 Cor 6:1-7?  Confused

How blessed is the one whom Thou dost choose, and bring near to Thee(Psa 65:4a)

Posts 3108
Forum MVP
PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 24 2017 12:04 PM | Locked

David Paul:

Tough, but they don't have much choice. They face legal action if they don't return what they've stolen.

I'm not a lawyer, but I think if we check our agreement with FL, we'd see that the copyright owner owns the content, not FL or us. What we own is a license which unlocks and lets us access the NASB. (No one has stolen our NASB license.)

Unlike a physical book (which we can own), we don't own the digital NASB itself -- the content -- and we probably don't own the format, style, or appearance of that content, either.

While a change in format has angered some customers, if anyone has any legal basis here, it's probably the copyright holder, not us.

Posts 4742
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 24 2017 1:14 PM | Locked

.

Posts 666
James McAdams | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 24 2017 1:42 PM | Locked

David Paul:

In order to shake the mess that has been created into a sloppy order that only mildly resembles the product that was purchased, FL's attempt to achieve the marginal effect of returning to a line-per-verse format requires TURNING OFF NOTES. The line-per-verse format, in a badly butchered state, is achieved by turning off visual filters and running Bible Text Only. That eviscerates the entire reason I desire the line-per-verse format. This is NO SOLUTION AT ALL AND IS NOT WHAT I PURCHASED AND HAVE NEARLY A TWO DECADE HISTORY OF EXPECTING. 

I appreciate that you might still want changes made, but you certainly can still view notes with the "one verse per line" setting enabled:

Posts 4829
DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 24 2017 2:37 PM | Locked

James McAdams:

Disciple of Christ (doc):

You have allowed yourself to fall into the trap of attacking a fellow customer because you don't share their experience of the company or view on this particular issue.

I haven’t attacked anyone. I told someone not to be daft.  

James if you want to continue to tell yourself you have a right to call people daft because they have a different view to you on an issue and then I will pray for you. 

James you are not part of the leadership of FL, you do not represent them in any way yet to presume your answers should be satisfactory for those who have asked for the leadership of FL to speak. I am sorry but it does not work that way, you are just a customer who seems to think speaking rudely to other customers is ok and should result in them going away. James all you are doing is fanning them flames when you continue to directly attack other people's viewpoints instead of sticking to expressing your own views.

So no matter how much you want to deny it and try and cloud thes issue with your personal judgements on what other people have said,  or continue to not read everything I have said and try and tell me again what I have already acknowledged, you have done nothing to convince me that FL has answered all questions and their decision to continue to not answer all of those questions is rude. 

Posts 4829
DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 24 2017 2:50 PM | Locked

James visual filters do not work in compatabilty mode on the web app - another issue FL have failed to acknowledge and answer if that will always be the case or if it will be fixed in a future date. In the mean time someone who wants access to verse per line view in that context is locked out of it. Visual filters are not a solution in all circumstances and if you have bothered to read all comments about this issue you would understand visual filters do not give the same display format that was originally available before FL botched this whole thing up and they still have not answered whether they intended to get the visual filters to return the original  display format. 

Posts 666
James McAdams | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 24 2017 3:08 PM | Locked

DOC, I'm never pretended to speak for Faithlife - I'm making a similar point to yours on appropriate language - accusing Faithlife of being abusive. I don't know if "daft" means something different in the states (not actually sure if that's where you're from, but judging by your replies I suspect something's been lost in translation), but in the UK it's a mild term to describe someone being "a bit silly" - which that particular accusation obviously is. I've never said people should be happy with my words on the matter - I'm really not pushing any view on what people should be happy with. All I'm doing is saying that a company actively working to resolve the concerns of a few users (albeit not in the way or the speed you would like) is not abusiveThat's all I'm saying. If you read the way that Faithlife have responded as abuse, you have misread the situation by any reasonable measure.

You can complain, ask for a fix, say the issue hasn't been resolved, ask for updates, ask for better responses and say they've let you down - that's all fine. But they have not abused anyone here. I won't call it daft, if the word upsets you, but it's terribly silly.

Posts 4829
DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 24 2017 4:29 PM | Locked

James you keep digging yourself deeper, you continue to state you think it is appropriate for you to judge other people because they have a different view to yours - calling people silly or daft or whatever way you want to rephrase it is not appropriate way to speak to another person - and using the secular culture to justify speaking to a person in that manner does not make it right. It remains inappropriate and a personal attack upon me as a person. 

And now you are saying I have said FL are being abusive. I have never said they have acted abusively or done anything that can be classed as abuse. I said their refusal to answer questions is rude. Nothing more,  nothng less.

James McAdams:

DOC, I'm never pretended to speak for Faithlife - I'm making a similar point to yours on appropriate language - accusing Faithlife of being abusive. I don't know if "daft" means something different in the states (not actually sure if that's where you're from, but judging by your replies I suspect something's been lost in translation), but in the UK it's a mild term to describe someone being "a bit silly" - which that particular accusation obviously is. I've never said people should be happy with my words on the matter - I'm really not pushing any view on what people should be happy with. All I'm doing is saying that a company actively working to resolve the concerns of a few users (albeit not in the way or the speed you would like) is not abusiveThat's all I'm saying. If you read the way that Faithlife have responded as abuse, you have misread the situation by any reasonable measure.

You can complain, ask for a fix, say the issue hasn't been resolved, ask for updates, ask for better responses and say they've let you down - that's all fine. But they have not abused anyone here. I won't call it daft, if the word upsets you, but it's terribly silly.

Posts 666
James McAdams | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 25 2017 1:15 AM | Locked

You didn’t just say it was rude in a generic way, you said it was equivalent to a rude gesture.

Not answering the phone might be rude, but it’s passive. Rude gestures are active - they’re deliberate acts designed to cause offence, thus abusive. Hence it’s not a suitable comparison for what’s happening with Faithlife, and it’s silly to use that kind of language.

i’m really not making a contentious point here. Rude gestures are abusive. Abuse hasn’t happened. Failures can be discussed using less loaded language.

Don’t keep turning that obvious point into an attack on you or anyone else. Corrections are not attacks. It’s part of discipleship. Anyway, I think it‘s wise if I leave the convo.

Posts 247
Jonathan Bradley | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 25 2017 4:41 AM | Locked

I agree. There are many forums, thousands of posts, and it's not like they have a full time staff whose job it is to be devoted to responding to every post by every individual. Saying not responding to a post is the the equivalent to a rude gesture is, in my opinion, going to far. They are, as far as we know, working on a solution. At this point, I'm guessing they didn't see the post or they feel responding to it will not be productive at this time.

Faithlife has been quick on fixing things and slow at fixing things. They were quick, once the ball was rolling with the publisher, in making the NASB into a paragraph format. However, the visual filter, since it is part of the core system of Logos 7, may be a little trickier to reprogram and format, as it would be affecting numerous books and how they look. 

James McAdams:

Corrections are not attacks. It’s part of discipleship. 

James, I don't know if you'll get a notification to my post, but, if you do, I agree with you wholeheartedly here. Correction is a part of discipleship that I think many pass over because they don't want to offend or upset people. 

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