NASB in Paragraph Format

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This post has 229 Replies | 3 Followers

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DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 25 2017 5:10 AM | Locked

James McAdams:

You didn’t just say it was rude in a generic way, you said it was equivalent to a rude gesture.

Not answering the phone might be rude, but it’s passive. Rude gestures are active - they’re deliberate acts designed to cause offence, thus abusive. Hence it’s not a suitable comparison for what’s happening with Faithlife, and it’s silly to use that kind of language.

i’m really not making a contentious point here. Rude gestures are abusive. Abuse hasn’t happened. Failures can be discussed using less loaded language.

Don’t keep turning that obvious point into an attack on you or anyone else.

James 

1) you call me daft and silly because I have a different view to you and are unwilling to accept that your choice of words towards me was inappropriate

2) you make false accusations claiming I said  FL was abusive when I have never done so 

3) you don't know me at all and yet after doing the above you presume you can speak into my life and correct me for something I haven't done

4) you try to justify all of this to yourself so you do not have to admit your wrong dong by calling it 'discipleship'

James how can you think after doing 1) & 2) above that you have a relationship of trust that allows you to speak into my life? Seriously how can you think that and think think that I am going to accept you speaking a lie about what I said as a correction? You just don't get it do you?

And all of this simply because you dont agree with myself or others who prefer the NASB95 in the format it was originally.

You are the one who is trying to turn attention away from what those who prefer the original one verse per line format. 

James McAdams:

 Anyway, I think it‘s wise if I leave the convo.

It is a pity you did not show such wisdom before using derogatory terms about me, and then before making false accusations, and then before trying to take a false moral high ground claiming you have earnt a position of trust in my life and can presume to correct me all in order to continue to avoid admitting your initial wrong doing.

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Ben Amundgaard (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 21 2017 1:00 PM | Locked

Hi all,

Thank you all for your feedback on this resource. We want to address the concerns of customers who want to maintain the original one-line/one-verse formatting of the NASB. At the same time, we want to address the desire from other customers to have the paragraph layout. After examining all of the options, we’ve come up with a solution that we hope will address both of those issues.

We are going to revert the current NASB resource to its original one-verse/one-line formatting. At the same time, we will create a new paragraphed NASB resource. They will be separate resources but the new resource will be available for free to everyone who owns the original resource.

All your notes will be tied to the original NASB resource. However, with corresponding notes and highlights you’ll be able to see them in the new resource as well.

We will sell both resources as standalone products on logos.com.

We hope to ship all of this in August. I’ll let you know when we have a firm date. 

Thank you for your patience. 

Manager, Bible Study Products Department

Posts 465
Nord Zootman | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 21 2017 1:20 PM | Locked

Tank you Ben!

Posts 423
Lewis Harper | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 21 2017 3:05 PM | Locked

Thanks Ben!

Posts 5034
DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 21 2017 4:03 PM | Locked

Thank you Ben and thank you FL for respecting the needs of all customers with this decision.

Ben Amundgaard (Faithlife):

Hi all,

Thank you all for your feedback on this resource. We want to address the concerns of customers who want to maintain the original one-line/one-verse formatting of the NASB. At the same time, we want to address the desire from other customers to have the paragraph layout. After examining all of the options, we’ve come up with a solution that we hope will address both of those issues.

We are going to revert the current NASB resource to its original one-verse/one-line formatting. At the same time, we will create a new paragraphed NASB resource. They will be separate resources but the new resource will be available for free to everyone who owns the original resource.

All your notes will be tied to the original NASB resource. However, with corresponding notes and highlights you’ll be able to see them in the new resource as well.

We will sell both resources as standalone products on logos.com.

We hope to ship all of this in August. I’ll let you know when we have a firm date. 

Thank you for your patience. 

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Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 21 2017 7:18 PM | Locked

Thank you for this welcome news.

Pastor, North Park Baptist Church

Bridgeport, CT USA

Posts 3681
Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 22 2017 3:47 AM | Locked

Ben Amundgaard (Faithlife):
We are going to revert the current NASB resource to its original one-verse/one-line formatting. At the same time, we will create a new paragraphed NASB resource. They will be separate resources but the new resource will be available for free to everyone who owns the original resource.

First of all, thank you very much for thinking through this and being willing to put in the work to get something that works. This being said, my gut reaction to your proposed course of action is that it cannot be good that two versions of the same product will be produced and can coexist in one's library. We have had difficulties in similar situations with SESB texts for instance.

I can foresee that one may accidentally open one text and annotate it and only realise later that they would have wanted to work with the other. Buyers will most likely be confused by the choice and keep asking the same question about it over and over again. 

I really don't mean to be a naysayer here, but it just does not seem like the right solution.

What I would propose is this:

First, you cannot make a big change to a mainstay Bible and not expect that many liked it the way it was. Listening to the desire for a paragraph format was right, simply changing to it was not.

With that in mind, I think it is right to revert to the original version since the change is unwelcome by so many. At the same time, there must be perseverance in seeking a better solution for those who want a paragraph format. 

Personally, I am not sure that it is practical in the long term to try to reproduce printed Bible formats (unless there is something particularly distinctive about it and it would denature the product to change the format). I am wondering if it would be best to standardise format. Have two options in settings: lines or paragraphs applicable to all Bibles. Then the visual filter for Bible text only, one line at a time, can be used in addition to it (after all, it is not redundant in relation to the original NASB format).

That's my two cents. My proposal could be short-sighted, unpractical or meeting with disapproval from others; Regardless, I think that creating two resources sounds good in the short term but probably is maladapted for the longer term.

Thanks for the hard work.

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 22 2017 5:10 AM | Locked

FL was very reluctant to have two "editions" but decided to acquiesce. In most cases I would agree with you, but this is a special case. Right now we are hearing from those who don't like this change, but for years we heard from those who wanted it. Oftentimes it is easy to think everyone agrees with you when it seems that there are so many agreeing in the forums. The truth is that both sides have a vocal minority... but that population is important to FL. The new course of action has difficulties, but is the lesser of the evils. Those who wanted the change will have to live with moving their notes. Users who only want one will have to hide the other. Personally I'm glad for the change... verse by verse is awful! The publisher must have received much pressure because most editions I see now are paragraph format. It remains true, however, that people purchased the NASB for many years because of its verse by verse formatting. For that reason, it is right that they can keep their copy "as is."

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Posts 1842
David Thomas | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 22 2017 7:48 AM | Locked

alabama24:
Right now we are hearing from those who don't like this change, but for years we heard from those who wanted it. Oftentimes it is easy to think everyone agrees with you when it seems that there are so many agreeing in the forums. The truth is that both sides have a vocal minority... but that population is important to FL

Yes

The "Format" issue is like so many other issues that a local church deals with - Service times (do we offer Christian Ed between worship, concurrent or in another time/day?); worship style (Traditional, Gospel, Contemporary, Modern, Blended, Eclectic?); Age-graded vs. whole family; bigger congregation and/or multiple campus and/or plant new churches, etc. It is easy to assume that "everybody thinks like me" but I learned long ago that every decision effects those who are already "in the fold" or those who would have been in the fold had a different decision been made.

Yes, I know some forum users will be quick to point out that Faithlife is a business and not a church so customers have a right to demand what they want. True, but in any store (even a virtual, online experience) there is limited "shelf space" and managers must determine what products go on their shelves and which customers they will allow to be served by competitors. If a customer base is better served by one brand of corn flakes or if the vendor should supply "corn flakes" from several vendors in order to accommodate personal preference.

These are decisions best made by Faithlife and then we as users can vote with our dollars if we agree with their decisions.

Making Disciples!  Logos Ecosystem = Logos8 on Microsoft Surface Pro 4 (Win10), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone, [deprecated] Windows App, Proclaim, Faithlife.com, FaithlifeTV via Connect subscription.

Posts 4765
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 22 2017 1:28 PM | Locked

I'm happy that my old NASB95 will be my new NASB95. If others get what they want, too, I'm happy for them.

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 22 2017 1:40 PM | Locked

Yes

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DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 22 2017 3:23 PM | Locked

Francis:

This being said, my gut reaction to your proposed course of action is that it cannot be good that two versions of the same product will be produced and can coexist in one's library. We have had difficulties in similar situations with SESB texts for instance.

I can foresee that one may accidentally open one text and annotate it and only realise later that they would have wanted to work with the other. 

I really don't mean to be a naysayer here, but it just does not seem like the right solution.

So those who want the original format of the NASB95 which they specifically purchased it for should be punished and have it taken off their shelf because of a vocal group who wanted it to be in a paragraph format Francis ?  

The issues you raise while not ideal are actually are not that big of a problem in today's Logos environment. Depending upon the need notes are attached to verses at time rather than specific words in a translation so those notes attached to a verse will seamlessly work with the new NASB95 paragraph format. In instances where notes have been attached to specific words (a selection) in a translation FL have indicated corresponding notes and highlights will come into play. And given the text is exactly the same I don't see how this is really an issue at all if one accidentally adds a notes or highlights the text in the wrong version.  For those who don't know how corresponding notes and highlights works please see one or all of  following tutorials by Morris Procter on the feature.  It is well documented and easy to use - see the end of this post to a link to tutorials and explanations of the features.

Francis:
Personally, I am not sure that it is practical in the long term to try to reproduce printed Bible formats (unless there is something particularly distinctive about it and it would denature the product to change the format). I am wondering if it would be best to standardise format. Have two options in settings: lines or paragraphs applicable to all Bibles. Then the visual filter for Bible text only, one line at a time, can be used in addition to it (after all, it is not redundant in relation to the original NASB format)

Cleary Francis your suggestion here shows you dont' understand the issue.  The format of the NASB95 verse per line was distinctive.  FL tried to standardise it through a Visual FIlter like you are suggesting but they were not able to get back to the format that some people specifically paid when they originally bought the resource. This is not just about preference for a single verse per line or a paragraph arrangement but about the whole experience of the distinctive format that users of this resource were accustomed to and was part of their bible study work flow. 

I can't presume to speak for everyone who is happy to be getting the original format that we paid for being given back to us but I don't expect their to be two version of every bible moving forward.  I see this as a one off exception for this particular product because it is a distinctive product.  I specifically purchases it for the formatting it offered.  Other bibles I have purchased in paragraph format and I don't expect FL to bring out a second version in the same single verse per line format that the NASB95 offered. 

Francis:
Buyers will most likely be confused by the choice and keep asking the same question about it over and over again. 

That is not a valid reason for FL to not do the right thing and restore what they took away in haste.  We regularly see Buyers and User ask the same questions again and again about this resource or that feature.  Once again why should those who specifically purchased something be punished by having it taken away form them because a 'buyer here or there might be confused about the choices they are being offered.  We all have to do due diligence in our purchasing decisions and if we as a  individuals within this user community can not cope with the same question about a resource or feature of the software coming up every now and then from different buyers / users.we should be asking some hard question of ourselves rather than saying choice should be taken away from people because it is easier than having to deal with questions about the choice.

Francis:
Thanks for the hard work.

That we can agree on Francis.  The team at FL do work hard. Sometimes I don't agree with the what they are working hard at because I believe they have made a poor decision but in this instance I believe they have made the right decision because this is a distinctive scenario which I don't believe they fully understood initially and that original decision by them lead to  a serious divide amongst users. The decision they have made allows for everyone to have their needs meet and the catalyst for the divide has been removed as a result of the decision.  There was no other reasonable action they could have taken.  Thank you Bob Pritchett and the team at FL for doing the right thing on this occasion. 

Links to Tutorials on Corresponding Notes and Highlights

https://blog.logos.com/2016/09/sync-highlights-across-multiple-bibles-5-clicks/ 

http://mpseminars.com/logos-tips-and-tricks/corresponding-notes/ 

http://mpseminars.com/logos-tips-and-tricks/corresponding-highlights/  

https://blog.logos.com/2016/03/how-to-highlight-passages-across-multiple-bibles/ 

And this is a blog post to the original announcement of the feature back in December 2015 for more information.

https://community.logos.com/forums/p/120644/789280.aspx 

Posts 147
Willie | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 22 2017 6:51 PM | Locked

Ben Amundgaard (Faithlife):

We are going to revert the current NASB resource to its original one-verse/one-line formatting. At the same time, we will create a new paragraphed NASB resource. They will be separate resources but the new resource will be available for free to everyone who owns the original resource.

All your notes will be tied to the original NASB resource. However, with corresponding notes and highlights you’ll be able to see them in the new resource as well.

We will sell both resources as standalone products on logos.com.

Thank you Ben and Faithlife for carefully considering customer feedback and coming up with the perfect solution!  The strategy you outlined is very logical and obviously well thought out.  I am extremely excited and grateful for this decision.

Posts 3187
Whyndell Grizzard | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 22 2017 7:58 PM | Locked

OK I hope both sides are happy now and we could go on and get ready for the second coming

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Randy W. Sims | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 23 2017 5:28 AM | Locked

Francis:
...

I too am saddened that this could not be accomplished in a single resource. It would have been a much more elegant solution. I hope that the new paragraph resource will continue to have the One Verse Per Line VF. I also hope that if there is a major reworking of VFs in the future that this will lead to some improvements.

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 23 2017 9:12 AM | Locked

Randy W. Sims:

I hope that the new paragraph resource will continue to have the One Verse Per Line VF.

Why wouldn't it? It wasn't a new feature. You can use it with any of the other bibles!

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Randy W. Sims | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 23 2017 11:42 AM | Locked

alabama24:

Randy W. Sims:

I hope that the new paragraph resource will continue to have the One Verse Per Line VF.

Why wouldn't it? It wasn't a new feature. You can use it with any of the other bibles!

Yeah, I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be removed. I just wanted to make it explicit along with my hopes that it will continue to improve as time and resources allow. 

Posts 5034
DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 23 2017 12:43 PM | Locked

Randy W. Sims:

alabama24:

Randy W. Sims:

I hope that the new paragraph resource will continue to have the One Verse Per Line VF.

Why wouldn't it? It wasn't a new feature. You can use it with any of the other bibles!

Yeah, I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be removed. I just wanted to make it explicit along with my hopes that it will continue to improve as time and resources allow. 

It's been a feature of the Software for many years. Nobody on either side of this issue have said it should be removed or that is should not be improved. And nobody has suggested their should be two versions of each bible. The only thing that has been said by those who wanted back what FL removed from their libraries was the distinct formatting of the NASB95 original format that could not be replicated via a standardised a VF. Both sets of customers are getting their needs met. FL is honouring our original purchase and those who want a paragraph format are getting their desire and corresponding notes and highlights is an eloquent solution for those who want to use the NASB95 paragraph formatted version as their preferred option.

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Ben Amundgaard (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 24 2017 9:24 AM | Locked

Francis:
This being said, my gut reaction to your proposed course of action is that it cannot be good that two versions of the same product will be produced and can coexist in one's library. We have had difficulties in similar situations with SESB texts for instance.

Thanks for your feedback. Without wanting to speak for everyone in the company, I can say that most of us who worked on a solution for this issue shared your gut reaction. Not only is it potentially confusing for the user, it also means we have to maintain two resources instead of one.

We went through every option we could think of (within reason) and determined that this was the only viable solution at this point. Rather than say "we'll get to a solution one day," we decided this was the best way forward.

The products will have different names (one will say "paragraph version"), which should help a bit.

Again, thanks everyone for your feedback and your patience on this. We've certainly learned a lot about how to handle an issue like this in the future.

Manager, Bible Study Products Department

Posts 435
Adam Olean | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 24 2017 9:32 AM | Locked

Ben Amundgaard (Faithlife):

Francis:
This being said, my gut reaction to your proposed course of action is that it cannot be good that two versions of the same product will be produced and can coexist in one's library. We have had difficulties in similar situations with SESB texts for instance.

Thanks for your feedback. Without wanting to speak for everyone in the company, I can say that most of us who worked on a solution for this issue shared your gut reaction. Not only is it potentially confusing for the user, it also means we have to maintain two resources instead of one.

We went through every option we could think of (within reason) and determined that this was the only viable solution at this point. Rather than say "we'll get to a solution one day," we decided this was the best way forward.

The products will have different names (one will say "paragraph version"), which should help a bit.

Again, thanks everyone for your feedback and your patience on this. We've certainly learned a lot about how to handle an issue like this in the future.

Thanks, Ben! I was pleasantly surprised to see the NASB available with paragraph formatting.

I hope the forum uproar won't dissuade you from adding paragraph formatting to the BHS and/or BHQ (more fascicles as well!). Wink

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