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LogosEmployee
Tom Philpot (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 25 2010 12:19 PM

Jack Caviness:
And at 11:30pm!

That's the downside of having all Logos 4 Mac Forums sent to your email and then having all your work email pulled to your phone. I tend to look at my phone in the morning and in the evenings, so it seems like I'm *always* in the forums

Jack Caviness:
Does he ever spend any time with that beautiful young lady who is peeking over his shoulder.

Yes. She's quite an amazing woman! She's very supportive of my work at Logos, and understands that I can be a bit driven. I definitely married up!

Mobile Development Team Lead

Posts 10667
Forum MVP
Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 25 2010 12:27 PM

Tom Philpot:
She's quite an amazing woman! She's very supportive of my work at Logos, and understands that I can be a bit driven. I definitely married up!

And we appreciate you both very much Yes

Posts 34
Gary Byrd | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 25 2010 9:59 PM

It still looks to me to be about 12 out for a full GM ... 

Not trying to sound discouraging but money is hard to come by these days and people look at this type of purchase as an investment. Nobody wants to spend $500 - $1,500 on an application that is feature deficient with only guesses as to a timeline of when the product will be complete.

IMO ... I think it is only fair to potential customers to give some sort of timeline instead of just " soon". 

In my case I have spent several hundred $ on L4 and do not use it at all simply because it does not have the features to make it usable for me. It ends up being a time waster instead of a time saver so in the mean time I opt for either Accordance or MacSword.

I am sure that L4M will get there and when it does it will be the superior product, but I would not get my hopes up for any time soon.

 

 

Posts 9
Ken | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 25 2010 10:31 PM

I agree with Gary....this is a major investment...

When I upgraded to L4, I did so because I misinterpreted the "coming soon" announcement for the Mac product. Now, I am paying a lot of money and I am not able to use the software that I paid for. In fact, because I needed some resources in a working app, I did go ahead and spend more money on Accordance and some resources there.

My Logos library is a major investment and a serious tool. I decided to go electronic because I am a missionary who is very mobile due to our context. Carrying heavy books around is not an option.

Through Logos I have access to all of my resources, but this process of waiting and "tinkering" with L4 is counter-productive (let's not even count the countless hours of indexing after ever alpha release). I am in a bind, but all I can do is wait...so I wait.

Posts 21
Allen | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 26 2010 3:55 AM

Gary and Kenneth,

Well said guys...  "Coming soon" is insufficient.

I still think Logos is great software, but I am feeling a little left in the "wilderness"... 

Allen

Posts 235
Stephen Ashton | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 26 2010 7:42 AM

allen.adkins@gmail.com:
Well said guys...  "Coming soon" is insufficient.

I still think Logos is great software, but I am feeling a little left in the "wilderness"...

I don't work for Logos and have no affiliation with the company. I don't want to be labeled as a Logos 'fanboy' and certainly wouldn't attempt to defend everything they've done in the past with regard to development for the Mac OS, but I think you're being a little harsh here.

It has been clear from the very first that the Mac version of L4 is at the alpha stage in its development. It has also been clear from the start that the Logos team are not going to commit to a timescale until the application is significantly more advanced. You are right that it is a major investment when so many Bible software packages are freely available, but  you made a decision to purchase an upgrade to L4 based on this information.

I guess that now you probably wish that you hadn't bought the upgrade and I understand your frustration - with yourself as much as anybody else. However, at this point you have a choice, plain and simple:

  • Don't waste time trying to use unfinished software or trawling the forum looking for answers to the 'When?' question. Sit back an wait for the 'It's in beta!' or the 'It's finished!' announcement.

or

  • Get involved. Post bug reports. Comment on the issues other users are having. Answer the questions from the Logos developers. You never know, you might help them finish the software sooner or contribute towards something that makes the software better.

allen.adkins@gmail.com:
I am feeling a little left in the "wilderness"...

There is a new public alpha release every two weeks. Tom, Cameron and others from the development team take an active interest in what's happening on this forum. As far as I'm concerned, I don't feel in the wilderness at all. I'm enjoying the software as it evolves and I feel that my comments and questions are being heard and considered.

Stay positive and remember the fourth fruit (Galatians 5:22).

Read FAQ and Guide for Reporting Bugs.

13" Macbook • 2GHz • 2GB RAM • OS 10.6.6 • 160GB Hard Drive

Posts 1874
Alan Macgregor | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 26 2010 8:29 AM

Stephen Ashton:
Stay positive and remember the fourth fruit (Galatians 5:22).

I am finding that involvement with the Alpha phase gives me a sense of familiarity with the program as it develops. Every release there is new stuff to learn, at a pace I can cope with! Also, we are blessed with great bunch of developers, who work their socks off to read our logs and respond to my daft questions as well as do the real work of writing the UI. The forum is a great place to learn new tips and tricks as well.

Even over here in Scotland I don't feel left out, but part of a team who are helping to create something really quite special.

Every blessing

Alan

iMac Retina 5K, 27": 4GHz; 16GB RAM;MacOS 10.12.2; 1TB FD; Logos 7

MacBook Air 13.3": 1.8GHz; 4GB RAM; MacOS 10.12.2; 256GB SSD; Logos 7

iPad Pro 32GB WiFi iOS 10.2

iPhone 5s 32GB iOS 10.2

Posts 456
Pastor Roger | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 26 2010 5:35 PM

Stephen Ashton:
Stay positive and remember the fourth fruit (Galatians 5:22).

One of the missing fruit in many of the forum discussions Crying

 

Elder/Pastor, Hope Now Bible Church, Fresno CA

Posts 21
Allen | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 27 2010 10:57 AM

Stephen,

Glad you're enjoying your software.  Let me say, you are entitled to your opinion the same as I am.

But because I or someone else post a comment that laments the process of the mac software development, does not make me or anyone else void of the fruit of the Spirit or a pessimist.

While I have voiced concerns about the development... I have not said anything unkind about logos or it's employees, or call their character into question...

On the contrary, I very much like logos and their customer service has always been great!

My advice brother is before you post something is to read what is said (digest it) and then read your response before you post it.

Grace and Peace,

Allen

 

Posts 762
Patrick S. | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 27 2010 11:21 AM

Gary Byrd:

and people look at this type of purchase as an investment. Nobody wants to spend $500 - $1,500 on an application that is feature deficient with only guesses as to a timeline of when the product will be complete.

IMO ... I think it is only fair to potential customers to give some sort of timeline instead of just " soon". 

In my case I have spent several hundred $ on L4 and do not use it at all simply because it does not have the features to make it usable for me. It ends up being a time waster instead of a time saver so in the mean time I opt for either Accordance or MacSword.

Alan Macgregor:

I am finding that involvement with the Alpha phase gives me a sense of familiarity with the program as it develops. Every release there is new stuff to learn, at a pace I can cope with! 

Regarding this topic generally I would comment a few things:

  • I don't even bother to use the Mac version yet. It's an alpha, it's not even feature complete yet. And I don't in any way say this negatively - it's just the reality. I don't see any point in harassing the developers about when feature A or B will be in the alpha version. Just let the developers get on with it. To be honest I think it's pretty amazing that they share the time they do in the forum responding to queries. When the beta comes out I'll reinstall and start hammering it to help developers crush bugs so I (we) can get a stable product.
  • I too consider Logos an investment (esp. after buying the New International Commentary !) so being an investment I don't mind waiting for it to mature. Logos have made a commitment to deliver an up to date Mac version. They'll have to deliver - and I'm sure they will.
  • I don't see that the user community are influencing too much the design of the Mac version being built, it is essentially the Windows version UI concept coded as native Mac UI, but that's OK. The UI metaphor delivered with Windows product is pretty good. On the other hand that the underlying engine accessing the book/index databases is essentially a Windows app wrapped in an interface layer - well I'm personally not thrilled about (as people will have seen from some of my other posts)... but we'll see.
  • To Gary and the others getting a bit frustrated with the delay I would say - given that we (all) agree that our Logos purchases are such an investment (waiting to come to fruition) and if  they need a working tool now - why not install VMware Fusion or Parallels and run the Logos 4 Windows version (the Logos license permits that). What's a (short term) investment of $50 or so against the (long term) investment of our Logos libraries? I'm using the Windows version (and I'm a Mac zealot) in a VMware Fusion full screen Win XP virtual machine (using Mac Spaces so it's separate) and I just ignore Windows itself.

In the big scheme of things it's worth the wait - and running the Windows version in VMware I don't even need to get challenged to increase the fruit of patience!


p.s. - surely MacSword can't be compared to Logos 4. I've used MacSword, it's a great little free open source app, but Logos 4 it ain't.

p.p.s. - I already had a copy of VMware Fusion so it was an easy decision to install Logos 4 Windows. 

p.p.p.s - how does one setup signatures (like Alan Macgregor's) for posting?

"I want to know all God's thoughts; the rest are just details." - Albert Einstein

Posts 1874
Alan Macgregor | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 27 2010 11:45 AM

Patrick S.:
how does one setup signatures (like Alan Macgregor's) for posting?

Patrick

At the top right of this screen you will see your name and Edit next to it. Click on Edit.

That brings up this screen:

Click on Site Options. Scroll down to the Signature box and put in what you want. Click Save at the bottom of the screen and you're done.

Every blessing

Alan

iMac Retina 5K, 27": 4GHz; 16GB RAM;MacOS 10.12.2; 1TB FD; Logos 7

MacBook Air 13.3": 1.8GHz; 4GB RAM; MacOS 10.12.2; 256GB SSD; Logos 7

iPad Pro 32GB WiFi iOS 10.2

iPhone 5s 32GB iOS 10.2

Posts 10667
Forum MVP
Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 28 2010 5:51 AM

allen.adkins@gmail.com:
My advice brother is before you post something is to read what is said (digest it) and then read your response before you post it.

Someone has a very thin skin. I thought Stephen made an excellent response to your complaint. When you called Logos' response "insufficient", it sounded rather impatient to me also. Perhaps Stephen is not the only one who needs your advice.

Logos made estimates of the release date of the original Mac version, and got badly burned in the process. I don't blame them for their unwillingness to predict that which cannot be reasonably estimated. In the years before that first release, I complained frequently about the lack of communication. That is no longer a problem. Communication is excellent.

In fact, Bob P did make a prediction in November or December that may come back to bite him. Big Smile

Posts 1931
Donovan R. Palmer | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 28 2010 6:32 AM

Patrick S.:
To Gary and the others getting a bit frustrated with the delay I would say - given that we (all) agree that our Logos purchases are such an investment (waiting to come to fruition) and if  they need a working tool now - why not install VMware Fusion or Parallels and run the Logos 4 Windows version (the Logos license permits that). What's a (short term) investment of $50 or so against the (long term) investment of our Logos libraries? I'm using the Windows version (and I'm a Mac zealot) in a VMware Fusion full screen Win XP virtual machine (using Mac Spaces so it's separate) and I just ignore Windows itself.

I agree. My primary focus is to run L4 Windows on Fusion.  When we are at a beta, then I will most likely switch my primary usage to L4 Mac.

As far as setting expectations, how long does one expect it to take to see the gap closed between L4 Windows and L4 Mac?  The trouble is that development on L4 Windows has not stopped, so the goal posts are constantly moving. Pragmatically, I have always said in these forums that IF the Mac version ever catches up completely with the Windows version, it will take a while... a long while.  Also, pragmatically, I sort of figure that there will always be a "lead" product where you see most of the new features first.  This is often the case with companies like Evernote, Skype, etc. who run on multiple operating systems.  Generally it is the Windows version that leads the way in features simply because that is where the bulk of the consumer market is.

 

Posts 452
David Buckham | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 28 2010 3:22 PM

Seriously, how many times does this argument have to rehashed?!? 

all about Christ,

David Buckham

http://thinkspurlove.blogspot.com

 

 

Posts 21
Allen | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 28 2010 6:32 PM

Mr Caviness,

If you think I have thin skin, then plainly say so.  A man of your age should not worry about mincing your words.  I would suggest that the reason you thought Stephen made an excellent response to my original post is because you both confuse argumentum ad hominem for logic and rhetoric in debating real issues...

The issue is, Mac users have been waiting for more than 2 years for a finished product.  

No amount of "personal distractions" will change that.  Nor the questions that surely follow.

My opinion is that forums ( other than the FAQ's) are usually a waste of time.  This has been reaffirmed by you and a few others.

Peace out...

Allen

Posts 5
Fr. JM | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 28 2010 7:04 PM

allen,

I think that what is a "finished product" may be at issue. I find Logos 1.2.2 a great program for regular use, and it functions as I would expect a finished product to function. If I had no knowledge of Logos 3 for PC, that would be the end of it. But, as is lamentably part of fallen human nature, I see that PC users had more, I desired it. Logos is working to make version 4 have feature parity, or at least something close to it (we may get a little more, or a little less). I don't find Logos 4 alpha 16 ready for my daily use yet; I still use 1.2.2 for that. But based on the progress I've seen, I see it becoming my regular software by summer at the latest. 

Pray for the Logos team regularly!

Posts 1539
Terry Poperszky | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 28 2010 7:06 PM

Jack Caviness:
In fact, Bob P did make a prediction in November or December that may come back to bite him. Big Smile

 

Jack, Bob hedged that time line enough that no one will really be surprised if Logos misses it. Besides, what are we going to do? Drop the investment we have made and go buy something else? Doubtful.

 

 

 

Posts 287
Jerry Walker | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 28 2010 7:23 PM

David Buckham:

Seriously, how many times does this argument have to rehashed?!? 

I think as long as it takes, to get a clear answer to what many of us thinks is a pretty reasonable question! 

Posts 287
Jerry Walker | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 28 2010 7:39 PM

allen.adkins@gmail.com:

My opinion is that forums ( other than the FAQ's) are usually a waste of time.  This has been reaffirmed by you and a few others.

Peace out...

 

Can't totally agree with this maybe part of it. While there is many great people in the forum who offer great support for those of us who are not as advance as others. But in the same vain some of those same people are not the most friendliest people to deal with. Often times I see in the forum many guys seeming to flex their knowledge of the software, what I mean by this is they answer questions that others have already answered in an attempt to show that they know just as much as the other guy. And it really becomes a big turn off most of the time. Sometimes I don't even asked questions in fear of being talked to bad for not knowing what others might think to be a very easy or basic thing to do. But I do understand where you are coming from. What I am learning to do is pray and have patience until things get better, and they will get better.  

 

Posts 21
Allen | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 28 2010 8:00 PM

Jerry,

Well said man.

Thanks,

Allen

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