7.7 Beta 3 BUG: Search for Topic Burning Bush

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Posted: Tue, May 30 2017 5:56 AM

Follow-up to thread => Search for <Topic Burning Bush>

Bug is Bible Search suggestion for Burning Bush showing Burning Bush tree (instead of thing).

When Match Equivalent References is unchecked, then Bible Search for <Topic Burning Bush> returns nothing.

Choosing Burning Bush tree generates <Thing Burning Bush> search, which seems a bit odd for a tree transformation into a thing.

Bug in Topic Guide search suggestion is <Topic Burning Bush> instead of <Thing Burning Bush>

When Match Equivalent References is unchecked, then <Topic Burning Bush> search shows Tree in Factbook (for a Thing)

If Topic Guide suggested correct search of <Thing Burning Bush OR "Burning Bush" then Everything search includes Bibles in Library results:

Note: looking at screen shot have no idea about Search settings: e.g. does not show Match Equivalent References is unchecked.

Keep Smiling Smile

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Philana R. Crouch | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 30 2017 1:03 PM

Hi KS4J,

I'll look into this, thanks.

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Philana R. Crouch | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 30 2017 2:37 PM

Hi KS4J,

I dug into this a bit and found some info that should shed some light on what you are describing.

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):

Bug is Bible Search suggestion for Burning Bush showing Burning Bush tree (instead of thing).

When Match Equivalent Resources is unchecked, then Bible Search for <Topic Burning Bush> returns nothing.

First, if you do a Bible Search for <Topic Burning Bush> with Match equivalent references turned off you should not get any results. The Help File describes the setting this way: 

Match equivalent references: checking this merges results for equivalent terms but of different types, such as Marriage (Topic) and Marriage (Cultural Concept).

Link

So there are no results for <Topic Burning Bush>, but turning this setting on will also search for <Thing Burning Bush>.

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):

Choosing Burning Bush tree generates <Thing Burning Bush> search, which seems a bit odd for a tree transformation into a thing.

This is also expected. Type in the word altar and if you look at the different options such as Altar of the Unknown God is labeled as a Stone Altar. In the example you gave, Tree is the type of thing that that Burning Bush is.

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):

Bug in Topic Guide search suggestion is <Topic Burning Bush> instead of <Thing Burning Bush>

This is a Topic Guide so it will generate a link for a topic search, not a thing search. Under the section for Biblical Things it links back to the entry for the Burning Bush in Factbook which does provide a link

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 30 2017 5:45 PM

Philana,

I'm sorry, but your explanations will not resolve the inconsistencies/faults with Search suggestions that I have raised over the last 2 years and mostly repeated in the thread that is the source for this Bug report.

Philana R. Crouch:

First, if you do a Bible Search for <Topic Burning Bush> with Match equivalent references turned off you should not get any results.

As you later state that Topic Guide "will generate a link for a topic search" why is it suggested for a Bible/Basic Search?

Philana R. Crouch:
but turning this setting on will also search for <Thing Burning Bush>.

And get results that the user will think came from <Topic Burning Bush> (as in the source thread).

Are you really advocating that the solution to having no results is to turn on the setting  "Match equivalent references"?

Dave
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Dave Hooton:

Philana R. Crouch:
but turning this setting on will also search for <Thing Burning Bush>.

And get results that the user will think came from <Topic Burning Bush> (as in the source thread).

Are you really advocating that the solution to having no results is to turn on the setting  "Match equivalent references"?

Is the distinction between <Topic Burning Bush> and <Thing Burning Bush> significant to you? If so, why?

In my opinion, Match equivalent references should really be on unless you have specialized needs for differentiating between the datasets. By design, the search engine requires you to be specific about the data you are searching for, but "Match equivalent references" is a way to direct the search engine to take advantage of the additional dataset that was created that ties the separate datasets together and says "these are all talking about the same thing".

Factbook has been moving more and more towards combining these datasets into a single entry, and eliminating the duplicates where they are found, and generally the rest of the application should be moving in that direction as well.

It's likely that the best solution for these types of searches that are generated would be to generate a search that turns on "Match equivalent references" for just that search. Unfortunately, this is not supported, because that option is a global option, and changing it would affect all searches. Making a search link cause a change to your global setting would definitely qualify as unexpected behavior. The alternative solution for now may be to alter the search to be appropriately more inclusive. This will require reviewing the intended purpose of the search to determine whether or not it should be inclusive of other terms. I can't remember where off the top of my head, but there are other places in the application where we do generate more inclusive searches.

I agree with you that the search suggestions are not entirely consistent, and we are aware of the manifold feedback on this issue.

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 30 2017 9:12 PM

Andrew Batishko (Faithlife):
Is the distinction between <Topic Burning Bush> and <Thing Burning Bush> significant to you? If so, why?

Search returning no results: e.g. => https://community.logos.com/forums/p/143686/904735.aspx#904735

Armin:

I know that Logos does a superb job on very precise searches for experts. This is great and needed. But since I am not an expert, I find that Logos lacks intuitiveness. In this case, let me point out two things:

 

1) As mentioned earlier, Logos has the great feature of suggesting a search term. This has helped me many times. However, in this case the suggested search term was misleading.

 

2) To do the fuzzy Bible search, I need to go to "Basic", not "Bible". Then I need to search "Everything", not "Bible". My intuition would say: To search for something in the Bible, I select the Bible search, and then search the Bible.

If Match Equivalent References is not checked, then distinction is significant.

Philana R. Crouch:

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):

Choosing Burning Bush tree generates <Thing Burning Bush> search, which seems a bit odd for a tree transformation into a thing.

This is also expected. Type in the word altar and if you look at the different options such as Altar of the Unknown God is labeled as a Stone Altar. In the example you gave, Tree is the type of thing that that Burning Bush is.

When manually typing search terms, can enter <Thing ...> but not <Tree ...> <Stone Altar ...>

Object explorer that groups by type of thing for generating searches would be helpful (could use type for filtering and grouping)

Keep Smiling Smile

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):

Andrew Batishko (Faithlife):
Is the distinction between <Topic Burning Bush> and <Thing Burning Bush> significant to you? If so, why?

Search returning no results: e.g. => https://community.logos.com/forums/p/143686/904735.aspx#904735

Armin:

I know that Logos does a superb job on very precise searches for experts. This is great and needed. But since I am not an expert, I find that Logos lacks intuitiveness. In this case, let me point out two things:

 

1) As mentioned earlier, Logos has the great feature of suggesting a search term. This has helped me many times. However, in this case the suggested search term was misleading.

 

2) To do the fuzzy Bible search, I need to go to "Basic", not "Bible". Then I need to search "Everything", not "Bible". My intuition would say: To search for something in the Bible, I select the Bible search, and then search the Bible.

If Match Equivalent References is not checked, then distinction is significant.

Right. That's why I said that "Match equivalent references" should really be on unless you have a specialized need for differentiating. From what I can see, there isn't a need for that here, so the setting should just be left on.

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 31 2017 6:12 AM

Andrew Batishko (Faithlife):
Right. That's why I said that "Match equivalent references" should really be on unless you have a specialized need for differentiating. From what I can see, there isn't a need for that here, so the setting should just be left on.

Dreaming of visual search indicators for non-recommended global options, which could be like Caps Lock with similar size as Link Set while looking a bit different.

Search with recommended global options:

Match equivalent references is unchecked:

Keep Smiling Smile

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 31 2017 6:55 AM

Andrew Batishko (Faithlife):
Is the distinction between <Topic Burning Bush> and <Thing Burning Bush> significant to you? If so, why?

I refer you to the confusion in the source thread when one user got results for <Topic Burning Bush> without knowing why.

Is the distinction between <Topic Money> and <PreachingTheme Money> significant? Of course it is when I get 245 results for <Topic Money> only to discover that 231 actually come from <PreachingTheme Money>! And the actual <Topic> results are not what I expected, being linked to images or media elements.

So I turn to Topic Guide to get results for topics.

Andrew Batishko (Faithlife):
"Match equivalent references" is a way to direct the search engine to take advantage of the additional dataset that was created that ties the separate datasets together and says "these are all talking about the same thing".

Why does <PreachingTheme Money> not include results from <Thing Money> --> 6821 results?

Please convince me that "these are all talking about the same thing".

Andrew Batishko (Faithlife):
Factbook has been moving more and more towards combining these datasets into a single entry,

Please illustrate.

Andrew Batishko (Faithlife):
Making a search link cause a change to your global setting would definitely qualify as unexpected behavior. The alternative solution for now may be to alter the search to be appropriately more inclusive.

Agree with the first part, but altering the search sounds like a way to provide results irrespective of the original intention?

Dave
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Dave Hooton:


Andrew Batishko (Faithlife):
Is the distinction between <Topic Burning Bush> and <Thing Burning Bush> significant to you? If so, why?


I refer you to the confusion in the source thread when one user got results for <Topic Burning Bush> without knowing why.

Is the distinction between <Topic Money> and <PreachingTheme Money> significant? Of course it is when I get 245 results for <Topic Money> only to discover that 231 actually come from <PreachingTheme Money>! And the actual <Topic> results are not what I expected, being linked to images or media elements.

So I turn to Topic Guide to get results for topics.

Andrew Batishko (Faithlife):
"Match equivalent references" is a way to direct the search engine to take advantage of the additional dataset that was created that ties the separate datasets together and says "these are all talking about the same thing".


Why does <PreachingTheme Money> not include results from <Thing Money> --> 6821 results?

Please convince me that "these are all talking about the same thing".

Andrew Batishko (Faithlife):
Factbook has been moving more and more towards combining these datasets into a single entry,


Please illustrate.



Not all references with the same name are considered equivalent. <Topic Burning Bush> and <Thing Burning Bush> are considered the same. <PreachingTheme Money> is considered the same as <Topic Money> but not the same thing as <Thing Money> (you can find two entries for Money in Factbook, although the one for Thing seems to have a sublabel of "Occupations", which seems strange to me). There was a time when <PreachingTheme Money> and <Topic Money> were listed as separate entries in the Factbook, but these have been unified because they are meant to refer to a common thing despite existing in two different datasets.

I can't think of a good reason why you would care about only <PreachingTheme Money> and not <Topic Money> (or vice versa). That's the reason why I'm wondering why you care. Please help me understand where you are coming from.

Dave Hooton:


Andrew Batishko (Faithlife):
Making a search link cause a change to your global setting would definitely qualify as unexpected behavior. The alternative solution for now may be to alter the search to be appropriately more inclusive.


Agree with the first part, but altering the search sounds like a way to provide results irrespective of the original intention?

I don't understand what you are saying here. Possibly I didn't state this clearly enough. I'm not talking about changing what results the search returns, but changing the search that is generated when you click the link in the Topic guide or Factbook. That is, we want the resulting search to return results that match the intention of the feature that is providing the link. The generated search may not (yet) be perfectly aligned with intention in all places in the application.

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 1 2017 3:09 PM

Andrew Batishko (Faithlife):
I can't think of a good reason why you would care about only <PreachingTheme Money> and not <Topic Money> (or vice versa).

What is <Topic> meant to convey if not a Topic we associate with Topic Guide, which does produce expected results, albeit via a method that is unavailable in normal text Search. Please look at my comment on results from <Topic Money>. <PreachingTheme> is quite distinct to <Thing>, <Topic>, <Event> else why did Faithlife provide them in the first place?

Andrew Batishko (Faithlife):
Not all references with the same name are considered equivalent.

Andrew Batishko (Faithlife):
Unfortunately, this is not supported, because that option is a global option, and changing it would affect all searches.

What is meant by "all searches"? The concept and the effect of "Equivalent references" is not understood by users, nor by me.  The explanations in Logos Help don't clarify the matter. The results from text Search are unpredictable. Please understand the issue raised in the source thread from a user perspective.

Andrew Batishko (Faithlife):
The alternative solution for now may be to alter the search to be appropriately more inclusive

Andrew Batishko (Faithlife):
I'm not talking about changing what results the search returns, but changing the search that is generated when you click the link in the Topic guide or Factbook.

I raised the issue in the context of text Search and "Match equivalent"  and now you are changing the scope to Topic Guide and Factbook?

Dave
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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 4 2017 4:44 PM

Dave Hooton:
Please understand the issue raised in the source thread from a user perspective.

Also see this thread.

Dave
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Let's back up a whole bunch of steps and go back to basics. I'm going to try and assume you know nothing at all, so have patience if I'm covering something you already know. It's possible there is some fundamental piece that's missing among the other things you already know. I actually learned some things myself in the process of working through this. This was part of the delay in getting a response back to you.

Let me also say in advance that this information explains what currently IS. We recognize that this information is not always surfaced to users in an easily understandable way. We recognize that there are many potential improvements for how search and auto-complete allow users to interact with this information. I'm considering those subjects outside the scope of this thread.

Faithlife has created a number of collections of hand-curated information that have different purposes and are meant to fulfill different needs. These collections of information are called datasets. Different datasets may contain some similar or overlapping data, but are generally taking different approaches to organizing information.

For the example searches below, make sure "Match equivalent references" is turned off.

The Biblical Things dataset is intended to provide a unique reference for each Thing in the Bible (generally nouns that aren't People, Places, or Events). It contains a list of all the words in the Bible where each Thing is mentioned.
You can find these entries (and tagged images) using: <Thing Money>

The LCV dataset is intended to provide a very large (and open-ended) vocabulary for identifying and organizing reference content (such as Bible dictionaries). It contains information about each article that talks about each entry. It also contains some key references for each topic. Entries in this dataset are called Topics.
You can find articles tagged with these entries using: {Milestone <Topic Money>}
You can also find images that have been tagged with this topic using: <Topic Money>
The key references are not currently searchable because they are not exhaustive. Therefore the search results would be misleading.

The Preaching Themes dataset is similar to LCV, but is intended to provide a smaller (closed) vocabulary for identifying and organizing sermon themes. It contains information about locations in resources that speak to each theme, as well as a list of Bible verses that are related to the theme.
You can find articles tagged with these entries using: <PreachingTheme Money>
You can find references in your Bible that speak to the theme using: {Section <PreachingTheme Money>}

The UAV dataset was created as a way to bridge the gap between the different datasets. It contains information about which pieces of information in one dataset correspond to information in other datasets.

The "Match equivalent references" option in the search menu is a global option. Changing it in one place affects all search panels and inline searches. If it is turned off, then the search will only look for exactly the references as listed in the search string. If it is turned on, then the search is invisibly expanded to include other references that the UAV dataset has defined as being equivalent.

For example, turn off "Match equivalent references" and search for <Topic Money>. Note the number of results. These will generally be dictionary entries that talk about money. Now search for <PreachingTheme Money> and note the number of results. These will generally be illustrations, devotionals, and similar sermon information type results. Both of these searches are about money, but one uses the Topics (LCV) dataset and the other uses the Preaching Themes dataset. If you wanted to find all the results about money, you can turn on "Match equivalent references" and rerun either search. Your results should equal both of the other two searches.

Note however that neither of those search returns results from your Bible like you would get if you searched for <Thing Money>. That's because the UAV dataset has not included <Thing Money> in the set of data that are considered equivalent with <Topic Money> and <PreachingTheme Money>.

Factbook is meant to be the collection of all the information about each subject. Therefore, it takes advantage of the UAV dataset to display information across all of the different datasets. A Topic Guide is specifically focused on Topics, and so generally its information is presented specifically from the Topics (LCV) dataset. There are some places in the Topic Guide where some information is pulled in from other datasets as well via the UAV bridge.

When the application provides a link that creates a new search, it should ideally create a search string that gives back results that are the same as what is being viewed at that point. It's not always possible to represent the retrieved information exactly, so sometimes the provided search string results in additional false positives. Sometimes the search requires the use of the "Match equivalent references" setting to replicate the results, but since changing that setting would affect the global setting, instead a more complex search is built that combines all the different searches from the equivalency information provided by the UAV dataset. Places where the provided search string doesn't seem to adhere to this information might be a bug, or might be due to other considerations.

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 5 2017 7:11 PM

Andrew Batishko (Faithlife):
Let's back up a whole bunch of steps and go back to basics.

Thanks for that. It provided some insights to which I will respond.

Andrew Batishko (Faithlife):
Note however that neither of those search returns results from your Bible like you would get if you searched for <Thing Money>. That's because the UAV dataset has not included <Thing Money> in the set of data that are considered equivalent with <Topic Money> and <PreachingTheme Money>.

I've known about the UAV dataset, but users don't know what to expect from its application.  Search is already regarded as non-intuitive as with <Topic Presence of God> and "Match equivalent" does not make a difference.

Talking about LCV:

Andrew Batishko (Faithlife):
You can also find images that have been tagged with this topic using: <Topic Money>
The key references are not currently searchable because they are not exhaustive. Therefore the search results would be misleading.

<Topic Presence of God> returns very different results to Topic Guide. {Milestone <Topic Presence of God>} gets closer to Topic Guide results but omits the results of the <Topic> search. This is why it is my contention that the <Topic> search should be fixed or dumped, because I agree that Factbook is more comprehensive and Topic Guide is more satisfying whilst "Match Equivalent" is unpredictable.

Andrew Batishko (Faithlife):
When the application provides a link that creates a new search, it should ideally create a search string that gives back results that are the same as what is being viewed at that point. It's not always possible to represent the retrieved information exactly, so sometimes the provided search string results in additional false positives. Sometimes the search requires the use of the "Match equivalent references" setting to replicate the results,

Factbook and Topic Guide are more satisfactory with/without the need to replicate the results (which do provide "additional false positives" in the form of pure string searches). So why not introduce a [match equivalent-refs] syntax and dump the global setting? This would appear in the search string and, at least, clarify how the results  are obtained. It's use in a normal Search by a user would still be questionable but I'm sure you could see its utility in an enhanced Search generator.

To summarise:-

  • fix or dump the user <Topic> Search as Factbook, Topic Guide and Bible Browser are more productive
  • also fix the Search format for <Event> --->  {Section <Event ...>}
  • fix/enhance the UAV
  • dump the global setting and introduce a [match equivalent-refs] command (mainly for app generted searches)

Dave
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Dave Hooton:

Andrew Batishko (Faithlife):
Note however that neither of those search returns results from your Bible like you would get if you searched for <Thing Money>. That's because the UAV dataset has not included <Thing Money> in the set of data that are considered equivalent with <Topic Money> and <PreachingTheme Money>.

I've known about the UAV dataset, but users don't know what to expect from its application.  Search is already regarded as non-intuitive as with <Topic Presence of God> and "Match equivalent" does not make a difference.

That's because <Topic Presence of God> and <PreachingTheme God: Presence> are not marked in the UAV dataset as being equivalent. It seems like these maybe should be considered equivalent, and I've submitted a request to consider this. Other similar problems can be emailed to data@logos.com. Reporting on the forums should work, but it may not always get noticed by the right people. Using a title that clearly indicates the problem may help ("Lack of intuitiveness in Logos" most likely did not capture the attention of people who care about curating the data), but even a good title isn't always a guarantee in attracting attention from the right people, so the email address is usually better.

Dave Hooton:

Talking about LCV:

Andrew Batishko (Faithlife):
You can also find images that have been tagged with this topic using: <Topic Money>
The key references are not currently searchable because they are not exhaustive. Therefore the search results would be misleading.

<Topic Presence of God> returns very different results to Topic Guide. {Milestone <Topic Presence of God>} gets closer to Topic Guide results but omits the results of the <Topic> search. This is why it is my contention that the <Topic> search should be fixed or dumped, because I agree that Factbook is more comprehensive and Topic Guide is more satisfying whilst "Match Equivalent" is unpredictable.

Since you haven't stated otherwise, I'm going to assume you are comparing the results of the suggested search in the Topic section in the Topic guide: <Topic Presence of God> OR "Presence of God" OR "Divine Presence" OR "God’s Presence".

The reason for the difference here is that the LCV (Topics) dataset includes both articles with Topic references as milestones and with headwords as milestones. The search engine supports searching for reference milestones using {Milestone <Topic Presence of God>}, however, the search engine does not support searching for headword milestones (yes, we are aware of customer requests for this feature).

That's why the search that is generated from the link at the bottom of the Topic section looks like it does. It's an attempt to retrieve most of the pertinent locations despite the fact that an exact search can not be recreated.

Dave Hooton:

To summarise:-

  • fix or dump the user <Topic> Search as Factbook, Topic Guide and Bible Browser are more productive
  • also fix the Search format for <Event> --->  {Section <Event ...>}
  • fix/enhance the UAV
  • dump the global setting and introduce a [match equivalent-refs] command (mainly for app generted searches)

  • From a data perspective, <Topic> search is doing exactly what it's supposed to do. What is needed is an improvement that allows users to search for what they want without having to worry about how to get the syntax right. We have put thought into a solution for this, but I have no information about when or if this will be implemented.
  • We do have an open case for fixing the Event search in the context menu.
  • UAV fixes can be suggested via email or forum post as above.
  • We do have an open case for a match equivalent flag to be used directly in the search string.
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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 6 2017 7:52 PM

Andrew Batishko (Faithlife):
Since you haven't stated otherwise, I'm going to assume you are comparing the results of the suggested search in the Topic section in the Topic guide: <Topic Presence of God> OR "Presence of God" OR "Divine Presence" OR "God’s Presence".

I meant results in the Topic section. But since I compared it with results from my search <Topic Presence of God> I assume your explanation still applies.

Andrew Batishko (Faithlife):
From a data perspective, <Topic> search is doing exactly what it's supposed to do. What is needed is an improvement that allows users to search for what they want without having to worry about how to get the syntax right. We have put thought into a solution for this, but I have no information about when or if this will be implemented.

The "when" is overdue and the "or if" is crucial because <Topic> search just doesn't work!

Andrew Batishko (Faithlife):
Using a title that clearly indicates the problem may help ("Lack of intuitiveness in Logos" most likely did not capture the attention of people who care about curating the data),

"Lack of intuitiveness in Logos" is a user reaction to the <Topic> search because they don't know/perceive that it is a data problem. Some users know/care about results from individual datasets like Preaching Themes, Events, Cultural Concepts, and their report will usually "capture the attention of people who care about curating the data" but users don't know about the UAV dataset. Most users don't know/care that Bible Browser Topics come from Preaching Themes but they do care if a suggested <PreachingTheme> search doesn't work (wrong format).

To clarify; I doubt you will get emails suggesting  <PreachingTheme God: Presence> should be an "equivalent" for <Topic Presence of God> or that there is any missing data. If it is reported in the forums as not working or producing expected results (or whatever!) then Quality/Tech will have to know whether "Match equivalent" was used, whether it was a Bible or Basic search and then pass information to the curators to decide if there should be any other "equivalents".

My suggestion is to dump <Topic> as a suggested Search, together with its global setting, and concentrate on improving curated data for Factbook, Bible Browser and Topic Guide. Maybe their suggested searches can be improved over time!

Dave
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Donnie Hale | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 27 2017 12:54 PM

Andrew Batishko (Faithlife):
I'm going to try and assume you know nothing at all

One way you came up short in this is defining "LCV" and "UAV." I'm aware of the former, having used Logos heavily since v4. I still don't know what the latter is.

Donnie

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Donnie Hale:

Andrew Batishko (Faithlife):
I'm going to try and assume you know nothing at all

One way you came up short in this is defining "LCV" and "UAV." I'm aware of the former, having used Logos heavily since v4. I still don't know what the latter is.

Sure enough...

LCV stands for Logos Controlled Vocabulary. This page has a brief summary: https://www.logos.com/product/25628/logos-controlled-vocabulary-dataset

UAV stands for Unified Annotation Vocabulary. Usually you don't see information about this because it's very much applied behind the scenes. It's never directly surfaced in the interface.

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