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Into Grace | Forum Activity | Posted: Thu, Jun 1 2017 11:13 PM

In Course TH215, Trinitarian Theology, a learning objective for segment 1 is "describe how Jewish monotheism indicated a plurality within the Godhead"

In segment 1, it states, "They were monotheists, and some of the Jews—already before the Christian era—believed that there was some kind of plurality within the Godhead. They would read passages from the ot and see that there was an angel of Yahweh who was identified in some way with Yahweh but also somehow differentiated from Yahweh."

Can someone from Logos (or this forum) please provide the source for this teaching? I cannot find it in this course. Thank you.

Posts 5018
DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 2 2017 12:06 AM

I dont know a direct answer but found a similar statement:

I and the Father are one (10:30). This echoes the basic confession of Judaism: “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one” (Deut. 6:4). For Jesus to be one with the Father yet distinct from him amounts to a claim to deity (cf. John 1:1–2). This challenged narrow Jewish notions of monotheism, even though there are already hints in the Old Testament of a plurality within the Godhead.

Zondervan Illustrated Bible Background Commentary Vol 2 John, Acts p.105 

It differs though I think from what the course says in that it s saying there were hints in OT rather than speaking about any Jews holding this viewpoint.  Have you tried the 'Ask the Author' feature as it would be the lecturer making this statement. Another alternative is to ask on the Faithlife Group for this course. 

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PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 2 2017 1:14 AM

Into Grace:
They would read passages from the ot and see that there was an angel of Yahweh who was identified in some way with Yahweh but also somehow differentiated from Yahweh.

If you're looking for a different source outside that course, Dr. Heiser discusses that topic in depth in Mobile Ed: OT291 The Jewish Trinity: How the Old Testament Reveals the Christian Godhead, as well as his Unseen Realm book.

Posts 520
Gordon Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 2 2017 7:39 AM

Darrell Bock's NT211 Introducing the Gospels and Acts course (www.logos.com/product/42291/mobile-ed-nt211-introducing-the-gospels-and-acts-their-background-nature-and-purpose) briefly discusses the historical belief among some inter-testamental Jews in the "Two Powers in Heaven". Texts that Bock notes that can be argued to support this belief include the pseudepigraphic Exagōgē of Ezekiel (also called Ezekiel the Tragedian) and First Enoch chapters 37-71. Regarding the latter, Bock writes "In this text, there is a figure called the Son of Man. He sits on a throne with God. He is preexistent. He participates in final judgement. Much of the authority that we see invested in the figure of the Son of Man is like the kind of authority that Jesus talks about for the Son of Man in His own remarks." Bock also notes that some Jewish sources rejected the idea of a plurality in the Godhead, citing Third Enoch, Rabbi Akiba, and the Sadducees.

Michael Heiser talks at length in his Unseen Realm (www.logos.com/product/49583/the-unseen-realm-recovering-the-supernatural-worldview-of-the-bible) about the plurality in the Godhead presented by Old Testament scripture. He examines familiar terms like Yahweh, the Angel of Yahweh, the Word of Yahweh and the Name of Yahweh, and highlights Bible passages where these not only are identified as being the Divine Being in their own right but also, curiously enough, interact with one another. For example, in his treatment of Exodus 3:1-6, Heiser writes that "The text quite clearly states that “the angel of Yahweh” was in the bush (v. 2). But when Moses turns to look at the bush (v. 3), the text has Yahweh observing him and calling to him - “from the midst of the bush” (v. 4). Both the Angel - the visible Yahweh in human form - and the invisible Yahweh are characters in the burning bush scene" (Unseen Realm, page 142). Heiser has a whole course in Logos called OT291 The Trinity in the Old Testament (www.logos.com/product/41694/mobile-ed-ot291-the-jewish-trinity-how-the-old-testament-reveals-the-christian-godhead) which is currently on sale at 40% off or as part of a larger bundle (www.logos.com/product/138135/mobile-ed-tough-topics-bundle) which is 70% off.

I hope that the above is helpful. I wish you every blessing in your studies. Big Smile

Posts 640
Into Grace | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 2 2017 11:34 AM

Disciple of Christ (doc):

I dont know a direct answer but found a similar statement:

I and the Father are one (10:30). This echoes the basic confession of Judaism: “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one” (Deut. 6:4). For Jesus to be one with the Father yet distinct from him amounts to a claim to deity (cf. John 1:1–2). This challenged narrow Jewish notions of monotheism, even though there are already hints in the Old Testament of a plurality within the Godhead.

Zondervan Illustrated Bible Background Commentary Vol 2 John, Acts p.105 

It differs though I think from what the course says in that it s saying there were hints in OT rather than speaking about any Jews holding this viewpoint.  Have you tried the 'Ask the Author' feature as it would be the lecturer making this statement. Another alternative is to ask on the Faithlife Group for this course. 

Thanks for your reply and suggestions. The question was posted to the Faithlife Group for this course.

Posts 640
Into Grace | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 2 2017 11:35 AM

PetahChristian:

Into Grace:
They would read passages from the ot and see that there was an angel of Yahweh who was identified in some way with Yahweh but also somehow differentiated from Yahweh.

If you're looking for a different source outside that course, Dr. Heiser discusses that topic in depth in Mobile Ed: OT291 The Jewish Trinity: How the Old Testament Reveals the Christian Godhead, as well as his Unseen Realm book.

Thanks for your suggestions. I plan to purchase the Mobile Ed course you mentioned. 

Posts 640
Into Grace | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 2 2017 11:38 AM

Gordon Jones:

Darrell Bock's NT211 Introducing the Gospels and Acts course (www.logos.com/product/42291/mobile-ed-nt211-introducing-the-gospels-and-acts-their-background-nature-and-purpose) briefly discusses the historical belief among some inter-testamental Jews in the "Two Powers in Heaven". Texts that Bock notes that can be argued to support this belief include the pseudepigraphic Exagōgē of Ezekiel (also called Ezekiel the Tragedian) and First Enoch chapters 37-71. Regarding the latter, Bock writes "In this text, there is a figure called the Son of Man. He sits on a throne with God. He is preexistent. He participates in final judgement. Much of the authority that we see invested in the figure of the Son of Man is like the kind of authority that Jesus talks about for the Son of Man in His own remarks." Bock also notes that some Jewish sources rejected the idea of a plurality in the Godhead, citing Third Enoch, Rabbi Akiba, and the Sadducees.

Michael Heiser talks at length in his Unseen Realm (www.logos.com/product/49583/the-unseen-realm-recovering-the-supernatural-worldview-of-the-bible) about the plurality in the Godhead presented by Old Testament scripture. He examines familiar terms like Yahweh, the Angel of Yahweh, the Word of Yahweh and the Name of Yahweh, and highlights Bible passages where these not only are identified as being the Divine Being in their own right but also, curiously enough, interact with one another. For example, in his treatment of Exodus 3:1-6, Heiser writes that "The text quite clearly states that “the angel of Yahweh” was in the bush (v. 2). But when Moses turns to look at the bush (v. 3), the text has Yahweh observing him and calling to him - “from the midst of the bush” (v. 4). Both the Angel - the visible Yahweh in human form - and the invisible Yahweh are characters in the burning bush scene" (Unseen Realm, page 142). Heiser has a whole course in Logos called OT291 The Trinity in the Old Testament (www.logos.com/product/41694/mobile-ed-ot291-the-jewish-trinity-how-the-old-testament-reveals-the-christian-godhead) which is currently on sale at 40% off or as part of a larger bundle (www.logos.com/product/138135/mobile-ed-tough-topics-bundle) which is 70% off.

I hope that the above is helpful. I wish you every blessing in your studies. Big Smile

Thanks for your reply & helpful summary of references. May God also bless your studies!

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