IVP Dictionary of the Later New Testament and its Developments

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James Taylor | Forum Activity | Posted: Sat, Jun 24 2017 11:22 AM

https://www.logos.com/product/4892/dictionary-of-the-later-new-testament-and-its-developments

Its frustrating that this excellent book (and related set) is so lacking in links to the resources it mentions! For a resource to speak so frequently of writings of the church fathers and then list a whole bunch of references with no links is such a tease. Any one else think this should have a little TLC? In fact this set in general needs attention, since the other New testament books also frequently mention works from the Nag Hammadi or the Pseudepigrapha etc, which is like taking someone right to the point of a discovery and then forbidding you to see the context of that reference.

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Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 24 2017 12:24 PM

I just checked one article for references to the church fathers and although I have practically all the resources that are referred to, you're right, the references are not linked. 

Since the integration of the library is one of the selling points of Logos, I agree that this needs to be taken care of. 

Posts 567
John Kaess | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 24 2017 1:31 PM

Yes, the linking in the IVP Dictionaries is not done as well as most Logos resources are. This needs to be worked on because the IVP Dictionaries are extremely useful resources and highly regarded, but the linking is substandard.

John

Posts 1483
Rick Ausdahl | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 24 2017 3:57 PM

James Taylor:

https://www.logos.com/product/4892/dictionary-of-the-later-new-testament-and-its-developments

Its frustrating that this excellent book (and related set) is so lacking in links to the resources it mentions! For a resource to speak so frequently of writings of the church fathers and then list a whole bunch of references with no links is such a tease. Any one else think this should have a little TLC? In fact this set in general needs attention, since the other New testament books also frequently mention works from the Nag Hammadi or the Pseudepigrapha etc, which is like taking someone right to the point of a discovery and then forbidding you to see the context of that reference.

I agree!  Such links and tagging are typically one of the major selling points of Logos resources and justification for the higher pricing for resources than is often found in other Bible apps.  And this is definitely the type of resource that could benefit in a big way from such links.

And yet, this is one resource for which Faithlife does NOT have the typical paragraph extolling the benefits of Logos resources-- that paragraph that begins with the sentence: "In the Logos edition, this volume is enhanced by amazing functionality."  So maybe they never intended major linking/tagging in this resource.  Definitely unfortunate if that's the case, but...

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James Taylor | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 24 2017 4:50 PM

Rick Ausdahl:
this is one resource for which Faithlife does NOT have the typical paragraph extolling the benefits of Logos resources-- that paragraph that begins with the sentence: "In the Logos edition, this volume is enhanced by amazing functionality."  So maybe they never intended major linking/tagging in this resource. 

I noticed that as well, but I'm not sure it's that intentional because the OT volumes do have links to ANE texts etc. so maybe this one will get an update sometime...

UPDATE: Just ran a concordance on a few volumes and was surprised by the results, there are tons of linked refs to secondary sources, I still don't understand why there are some many which are not linked in the original volume under question above though...

Look at a comparison of the linked references...

Here is the concordance from the IVP Dictionary of the Later New Testament and Its Developments

Here is one from an OT volume on the Pentateuch from the same set.

Here's one on the Background of the NT from the same set...

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Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 24 2017 5:16 PM

This is a volume IVP produced quite a while ago. At the time it probably was pretty well linked to existing FL resources. The times have changed and there are many more links that could be made.

FL has stated that it is expensive to go back later and add tags to older resources after new resources with new links come out. They have done it and do it occasionally, but I believe that is still their practice.

I'd love to have all my resources updated with all existing links made active. Unless FL figures out how to fund such an effort, I don't ever expect that to happen. Would users pay for this? I wonder.

However, there are some resource that are more important than others. High level dictionaries are among those on my list, so I'd love to see the IVP dictionaries updated.

Pastor, North Park Baptist Church

Bridgeport, CT USA

Posts 5301
Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 24 2017 5:28 PM

It may do well for Logos to mark in their description lower levels of tagging than our normal resources or possibly writing a review stating that and perhaps say 5 star resource, tagging levels draw it down to 3 stars.

-dan

Posts 1181
Sean | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 24 2017 6:46 PM

Dan Francis:
It may do well for Logos to mark in their description lower levels of tagging than our normal resources

Yes. They should do this. Part of the problem is that the customer has no idea what they are getting in terms of tagging & links until they purchase and download the resource. I've been very disappointed a couple times buying books in the era of L6 & 7 only to discover they're much older resources with poor linking.

But I'm also of the mind that if they promote an older title on sale--like they frequently do with this set--they should take some effort to update it to current Logos era standards.

ADDITIONALLY: It's not only with older resources. I've bought a few resources on pre-pub in the last couple years that lacked links to older titles already in the Logos catalog. FL seems to be particularly allergic to linking to Harnack's History of Dogma which is quoted, well, everywhere in older theological works.

We need to stop making/accepting excuses for this.

Dan Francis:
or possibly writing a review stating that and perhaps say 5 star resource, tagging levels draw it down to 3 stars.

I have done this and will continue to do so in the future.

Posts 5386
DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 24 2017 7:11 PM

From what I have seen from FL over the years I would be very surprised to see this level of direct openess from FL. I would be very happy for them to prove me wrong.

Dan Francis:

It may do well for Logos to mark in their description lower levels of tagging than our normal resources or possibly writing a review stating that and perhaps say 5 star resource, tagging levels draw it down to 3 stars.

-dan

Posts 1395
James Taylor | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 24 2017 10:22 PM

Mark Smith:
High level dictionaries are among those on my list, so I'd love to see the IVP dictionaries updated.
 

Agreed, I don't expect every single resource to have the same level of detail, but this set was expensive ($330.00), and the other volumes I checked  all have significantly more links than this volume.

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Posts 33
Dave Palmer | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 25 2017 7:54 AM

Mark Smith:

This is a volume IVP produced quite a while ago. At the time it probably was pretty well linked to existing FL resources. The times have changed and there are many more links that could be made.

FL has stated that it is expensive to go back later and add tags to older resources after new resources with new links come out. They have done it and do it occasionally, but I believe that is still their practice.

I too have been frustrated by missing links to resources that I know I own, and would love for Logos to provide a means for Community Tagging.  As each of us find missing links to resources we could supply them for the benefit of others.  In my opinion this would take the value of Logos to another level.

Posts 1083
EastTN | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 25 2017 11:51 AM

Dave Palmer:

I too have been frustrated by missing links to resources that I know I own, and would love for Logos to provide a means for Community Tagging.  As each of us find missing links to resources we could supply them for the benefit of others.  In my opinion this would take the value of Logos to another level.

I think this would be an excellent solution. I imagine it working much the way typo reporting works.  An option would be provided for users to supply a link, and periodically Logos could review them and issue an update with improved linking.  It would reduce Logos' cost for updating resources, and give them a better product, while at the same time helping users.

Posts 614
Gordon Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 25 2017 1:00 PM

EastTN:

Dave Palmer:

I too have been frustrated by missing links to resources that I know I own, and would love for Logos to provide a means for Community Tagging.  As each of us find missing links to resources we could supply them for the benefit of others.  In my opinion this would take the value of Logos to another level.

I think this would be an excellent solution. I imagine it working much the way typo reporting works.  An option would be provided for users to supply a link, and periodically Logos could review them and issue an update with improved linking.  It would reduce Logos' cost for updating resources, and give them a better product, while at the same time helping users.

Yes

Posts 1181
Sean | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 25 2017 5:16 PM

EastTN:
I think this would be an excellent solution. I imagine it working much the way typo reporting works.  An option would be provided for users to supply a link, and periodically Logos could review them and issue an update with improved linking.  It would reduce Logos' cost for updating resources, and give them a better product, while at the same time helping users.

This idea has been brought up several time and has merit. However:

  1. Some of these resources have hundreds of missing links that would be incredibly tedious for any sort of community linking effort to fix. FaithLife should have automated tools for fixing them--and should do so.
  2. I'm not willing to do work for free that I've already paid FaithLife to do.
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PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 25 2017 5:46 PM

Sean:
FaithLife should have automated tools for fixing them--and should do so.

Yes, not only for resources, but even for store issues.

Surely a technology company like FL could automate not only detection and fixing of issues, but even minimize human error. E.g., "This publisher permits dynamic pricing. Are you sure you don't want to enable it for this collection you're adding to the store?"

It may be cheaper in the short run to rely on customers to report "Collection X needs dynamic pricing," or "Resource Y needs to be unbundled," but it would 1) constantly require new waves of customers to take over for those who grow weary of freely doing it, and 2) require employees to fix what automation could have detected and fixed earlier and faster.

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Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 25 2017 6:27 PM

Sean:
I'm not willing to do work for free that I've already paid FaithLife to do.

HMM. I haven't heard this before. What do you mean?

Do you mean that for the lifetime of the resource you expect your purchase of it to cover all possible future linking upgrades so that it perpetually up-to-date at no extra cost?

Pastor, North Park Baptist Church

Bridgeport, CT USA

Posts 1181
Sean | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 25 2017 7:22 PM

Mark Smith:

Sean:
I'm not willing to do work for free that I've already paid FaithLife to do.

HMM. I haven't heard this before. What do you mean?

Do you mean that for the lifetime of the resource you expect your purchase of it to cover all possible future linking upgrades so that it perpetually up-to-date at no extra cost?

I explained my expectations clearly in my earlier post in this thread and in the many other posts I have written on this subject.

No, I don't expect every resource to be perfectly maintained in perpetuity come what may. For many resources, that obviously would be a losing proposition, and FL is entitled to make its own cost-benefit judgments. (For example, a while back I bought an obscure but delightful small work of theology that I'm sure probably moves only a few units per year. It cost a few dollars; links were terrible but I'm fine with that given the price and obscurity.)

I do think it is reasonable to be alerted if a resource is older and not properly formatted. FL thinks so too. I can't find the post but at one point a staff member suggested putting date Logos produced the resource on the product info page, but they haven't taken any steps towards providing that information in the web store. (The copyright is irrelevant for discerning this; besides, a new customer wouldn't be aware of the problem: "Well, this was produced during the Libronix era, so the linkage will be scanty.")

I do expect that if a resource goes on sale frequently and FL is going to be generating new revenues from it, it should be reviewed to ensure that the claims made about it being a "high quality electronic book" are justified. At a certain threshold of missing linkage, a resource fails to meet that claim. To their credit, FL sometimes does go back and update such resources--though again it's unpredictable and inconsistent.

I do expect a resource that comes out in the L6/L7 era to have all possible links to older titles in the catalog. Christus Victor, released a year ago (2016), does not. Yes, I did pay them for that; no, I would not be willing to somehow submit error reports/link the resource manually for free for the resource to be improved. In cases like this, I would reject either of these hypothetical responses from FL:

  1. "Sorry we didn't include all the possible links in this resource when we made it; here's a tool so you can add them yourself."
  2. "Sorry we didn't include all the possible links in this resource when we made it; give us $X more and we'll add them."

I post about this problem whenever the subject comes up because, as the Christus Victor example (and it's not the only one) shows, FL has still not taken this issue seriously, taken steps to ensure that going forward new resources are linked to everything in the existing catalog, nor addressed customer concerns like the original poster of this thread has raised.

Posts 560
Glenn Crouch | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 25 2017 7:52 PM

Sean:
I do expect that if a resource goes on sale frequently and FL is going to be generating new revenues from it, it should be reviewed to ensure that the claims made about it being a "high quality electronic book" are justified. At a certain threshold of missing linkage, a resource fails to meet that claim. To their credit, FL sometimes does go back and update such resources--though again it's unpredictable and inconsistent.

I think this is quite a reasonable expectation.

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St Paul's Lutheran Church
Kalgoorlie-Boulder, Western Australia

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 25 2017 8:19 PM

Mark Smith:
Do you mean that for the lifetime of the resource you expect your purchase of it to cover all possible future linking upgrades so that it perpetually up-to-date at no extra cost?

Depending on what you mean by "perpetually," one could argue that this is the case now. FL does update the resources, and when they do, the users get the free updates. Of course, this is expensive and there isn't as much financial incentive to make updates to resources which most users who are inclined to make such a purchase have already done so. 

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Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 26 2017 7:20 AM

Sean:
I do expect a resource that comes out in the L6/L7 era to have all possible links to older titles in the catalog. Christus Victor, released a year ago (2016), does not. Yes, I did pay them for that; no, I would not be willing to somehow submit error reports/link the resource manually for free for the resource to be improved.

OK. That makes sense. Thank you for clarifying.

Pastor, North Park Baptist Church

Bridgeport, CT USA

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