Mobile Ed: TH341 Perspectives on Eschatology: Five Views on the Millennium douglas moo olivet discourse question?

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Landon Brake | Forum Activity | Posted: Mon, Jun 26 2017 6:24 AM

Not sure if this is the right place to post this but I really need help understanding Douglas Moos perspective on the olivet discourse. He almost sounds like he believes double prophecy or that Matthew 24 is both preterist and futurist. That is whats confusing to me is that he says it refers to Titus in 70ad and that its also  prophesying the tribulation and second coming. Can anyone explain this or how he gets that its both and how you can believe both? That would be amazing to understand where he is coming from since he takes on posttrib premillenial.

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 26 2017 6:49 AM

Landon Brake:
He almost sounds like he believes double prophecy or that Matthew 24 is both preterist and futurist

I agree this is what he is saying - from the module:

"Now, we have to understand the discourse to be talking both about the events of AD 70—because that was when the temple Jesus was talking about was actually destroyed—but also about the events of the end of time. I’m one of those who thinks we need to take that sort of mediating view."

Darrell L. Bock et al., TH341 Perspectives on Eschatology: Five Views on the Millennium, Logos Mobile Education (Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2017).

He does outline his argument a bit there but goes into more detail in his section on the Olivet Discourse  in Three Views on the Rapture

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Mattillo | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 26 2017 7:10 AM

I haven't taken this course yet but it sounds like the "already...not yet" concept when it comes to prophecy.  I know the dictionary of biblical prophecy has an article on it as I'm sure other ones do as well

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Landon Brake | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 26 2017 10:46 AM

Thank you all for the response and help. Is there a way to prove double prophecy and that its a biblical concept or is it more a concept that was created? Because I never knew about double prophecy til I researched commentaries on the olivet discourse.

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Miles Custis | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 26 2017 1:32 PM

I'd encourage you to take this discussion to the course's Faithlife group: https://faithlife.com/th341/.

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Mattillo | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 27 2017 6:01 PM

I'm sorry it has taken me so long to get back to you Landon but here are a few articles for you to digest.  The already-not yet concept is fascinating and I recommend you do some digging.  I'm in the premillenial category but this concept isn't tied down to that one eschatological thought.  I'm just a laymen who likes to study the bible but send me a note on faithlife if you have any questions or as Miles suggested post on the TH341 forums to see what others think.



Already but Not Yet

The message of the NT cannot be separated from that of the OT. The OT promised that God would save his people, beginning with the promise that the seed of the woman would triumph over the seed of the Serpent (Gen. 3:15). God’s saving promises were developed especially in the covenants he made with his people: (1) the covenant with Abraham promised God’s people land, seed, and universal blessing (Gen. 12:1–3); (2) the Mosaic covenant pledged blessing if Israel obeyed the Lord (Exodus 19–24); (3) the Davidic covenant promised a king in the Davidic line forever, and that through this king the promises originally made to Abraham would become a reality (2 Samuel 7; Psalm 89; 132); and (4) the new covenant promised that God would give his Spirit to his people and write his law on their hearts, so that they would obey his will (Jer. 31:31–34; Ezek. 36:26–27).
As John the Baptist and Jesus arrived on the scene, it was obvious that God’s saving promises had not yet been realized. The Romans ruled over Israel, and a Davidic king did not reign in the land. The universal blessing promised to Abraham was scarcely a reality, for even in Israel it was sin, not righteousness, that reigned. John the Baptist therefore summoned the people of Israel to repent and to receive baptism for the forgiveness of their sins, so that they would be prepared for a coming One who would pour out the Spirit and judge the wicked.
Jesus of Nazareth represents the fulfillment of what John the Baptist prophesied. Jesus, like John, announced the imminent arrival of the kingdom of God (Mark 1:15), which is another way of saying that the saving promises found in the OT were about to be realized. The kingdom of God, however, came in a most unexpected way. The Jews had anticipated that when the kingdom arrived, the enemies of God would be immediately wiped out and a new creation would dawn (Isa. 65:17). Jesus taught, however, that the kingdom was present in his person and ministry (Luke 17:20–21)—and yet the foes of the kingdom were not instantly annihilated. The kingdom did not come with apocalyptic power but in a small and almost imperceptible form. It was as small as a mustard seed, and yet it would grow into a great tree that would tower over the entire earth. It was as undetectable as leaven mixed into flour, but the leaven would eventually transform the entire batch of dough (Matt. 13:31–33). In other words, the kingdom was already present in Jesus and his ministry, but it was not yet present in its entirety. It was “already—but not yet.” It was inaugurated but not consummated. Jesus fulfilled the role of the Servant of the Lord in Isaiah 53, taking upon himself the sins of his people and suffering death for the forgiveness of their sins. The day of judgment was still to come in the future, even though there would be an interval between God’s beginning to fulfill his promises in Jesus (the kingdom inaugurated) and the final realization of his promises (the kingdom consummated). Jesus, who has been reigning since he rose from the dead, will return and sit on his glorious throne and judge between the sheep and the goats (Matt. 25:31–46). Hence, believers pray both for the progressive growth and for the final consummation of the kingdom in the words “your kingdom come” (Matt. 6:10).
The Synoptic Gospels (Matthew, Mark, and Luke) focus on the promise of the kingdom, and John expresses a similar truth with the phrase “eternal life.” Eternal life is the life of the age to come, which will be realized when the new creation dawns. Remarkable in John’s Gospel is the claim that those who believe in the Son enjoy the life of the coming age now. Those who have put their faith in Jesus have already passed from death to life (John 5:24–25), for he is the resurrection and the life (John 11:25). Still, John also looks ahead to the day of the final resurrection, when every person will be judged for what he or she has done (John 5:28–29). While the focus in John is on the initial fulfillment of God’s saving promises now, the future and final fulfillment is in view as well.
The already-not-yet theme dominates the entire NT and functions as a key to grasping the whole story (see chart). The resurrection of Jesus indicates that the age to come has arrived, that now is the day of salvation. In the same way the gift of the Holy Spirit represents one of God’s end-time promises. NT writers joyously proclaim that the promise of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit has been fulfilled (e.g., Acts 2:16–21; Rom. 8:9–16; Eph. 1:13–14). The last days have come through Jesus Christ (Heb. 1:1–2), through whom we have received God’s final and definitive word. Since the resurrection has penetrated history and the Spirit has been given, we might think that salvation history has been completed—but there is still the “not yet.” Jesus has been raised from the dead, but believers await the resurrection of their bodies and must battle against sin until the day of redemption (Rom. 8:10–13, 23; 1 Cor. 15:12–28; 1 Pet. 2:11). Jesus reigns on high at the right hand of God, but all things have not yet been subjected to him (Heb. 2:5–9).


Crossway Bibles, The ESV Study Bible (Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles, 2008), 1803.





Already-Not Yet

The already-not yet concept is closely tied to Jesus’ teachings about the kingdom of God and to New Testament eschatology in general. The kingdom of God is the rule or reign of God. When Jesus began to minister publicly, his main message was, “The kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe the good news!” (Mark 1:15; cf. also Matt. 4:17, 23; Luke 4:42–44). Jesus healed the sick, cast out demons, fed the hungry, and forgave sinners—all signs that the kingdom had arrived. In Jesus, the kingdom of God became a present reality (Matt. 11:11–12; 12:28; 18:1–5; Luke 17:20–21). The “age to come” had already begun.
The disciples were operating from a typical Jewish understanding of eschatology (doctrine of the last things). They believed that when Messiah arrived, the new age of God’s complete rule would begin. As a result, Jesus’ disciples expected him to establish the kingdom fully and totally during their lifetime. When he was crucified, not only did they suffer emotionally because of the death of their friend and leader, but their entire understanding of God’s plan encountered a crisis. If Jesus was Messiah, the one to bring about the messianic kingdom, why was he crucified? Was all hope lost for God’s kingdom of peace, righteousness, and blessing to arrive? After Jesus’ resurrection and ascension and the coming of the Spirit at Pentecost, however, the disciples began to understand God’s greater plan (see the chart on next page).
At Jesus’ first coming, the kingdom of God broke into this world. A world filled with sin, rebellion, Satan, darkness, and evil was invaded by Jesus the King and his messianic kingdom of peace, righteousness, life, and God. At conversion, believers begin to experience eternal life (lit., “age-to-come” life). The apostle Paul speaks of being “rescued … from the dominion of darkness and brought … into the kingdom of the Son” (Col. 1:13). Believers are new people living in an old world. God has started his kingdom project, but he has not completely finished it. The kingdom of God has already arrived, but it has not yet come in all its fullness. The grand project has been launched, but it has not been finished.



Yet the kingdom of God also has a future dimension (Matt. 6:10; 25:34; 26:29; Luke 19:11–27). Believers are living in enemy-occupied territory between God’s initial invasion (Jesus’ first coming) and his total defeat of evil (Jesus’ second coming). Believers live in the overlap between this age and the age to come. This situation explains many elements of the present Christian experience:

    •      Believers experience God’s forgiveness, but they still sin and will never be perfect in this life.
    •      Believers have victory over death, but will one day die physically.
    •      Believers still get sick, and not all Christians experience healing.
    •      Believers live in the Spirit, but Satan will continue to attack and may do damage.
    •      God lives within believers, but they do not yet live in God’s complete presence.

Because of the already-not yet reality of the kingdom of God, those who belong to Christ will experience victories as well as struggles until Jesus returns. (See also ESCHATOLOGY; KINGDOM OF GOD; SECOND COMING.)


J. Daniel Hays, J. Scott Duvall, and C. Marvin Pate, Dictionary of Biblical Prophecy and End Times (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan Publishing House, 2007), 22–23.

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