God is intensely interested in the salvation of animals!

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Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 7 2010 3:10 PM | Locked

Floyd Johnson:
Which is a better answer than "...we turn out the lights on this one...."  I first heard of the role of redemption within nature at a Campus Crusades for Christ conference in the early 70's at Arrowhead Spring in San Bernadino, CA (the old CCC headquarters).  I would hope that there would be material within Logos that addresses the topic.

Actually Floyd,

this was the answer that should have ended it:

So, if Scripture is silent on such things as whether or not animals go to heaven, so should we be.  Emotions and exegesis don't mix very well.

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

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Ben Vargh | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 7 2010 3:32 PM | Locked

Robert Pavich:

this was the answer that should have ended it:

So, if Scripture is silent on such things as whether or not animals go to heaven, so should we be.  Emotions and exegesis don't mix very well.

Out of genuine curiosity:

1. Silence does not mean Yes of No. Does anyone think that animals in heaven or new earth is a genuine possibility?

2. What was the commentator possibly meaning by 'salvation of animals' -  animals are sinful and Christ's died for their sins also? Is anybody aware of somebody having such kind of a thought in Christianity before?

PS: I enjoyed this thread very much and am sure that the numerous posts show that others did enjoy it as well. Wielding the stick on it paints a picture of Christianity, Church, and Logos of having only serious faces and serious exegesis in life - nothing on the lighter side, no fun, no holidays, no laughter.

 

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Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 7 2010 3:54 PM | Locked

Ben Vargh:

Out of genuine curiosity:

1. Silence does not mean Yes of No. Does anyone think that animals in heaven or new earth is a genuine possibility?

That's the thing, since scripture doesn't say it, then any answer is as good as any other...but ALL of it  is just speculation...not worth much.

 

We (of all people) should be interested in what a sound exegesis yields...and this topic just isn't spoken of in the word that God has provided to us.

 

 

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

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Alain Maashe | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 7 2010 4:53 PM | Locked

Robert Pavich:

That's the thing, since scripture doesn't say it, then any answer is as good as any other...but ALL of it  is just speculation...not worth much.

This is not the proper approach to the silence od scripture. The silence of scripture does not make all possible answers equal, it however shifts the burden of proof on those who argue for the existence or the reality of what scripture does not mention.

Scripture says nothing of unicorns, green aliens from Mars, or iPads in heaven, those who argue for it, have the burden of proof. those who argue against it do not need to prove anything.

The question of aninals in heaven has soteriological and eschatological  implications (animals will have to be ressurected and be given an imperishable body) and nowhere does the Bible ever mention that anything else than human will be resurected and get an imperishable body (1 Cor 15:50-54)  after the destruction of the material universe (2 Pet 3:10 Cf Rev 20:11; 21:1).

Therefore , not only there is no biblical support for the idea but the text appears to exclude the possiblity by only mentioning the ressurection in relation to redeemed humans who are identified with Christ who atone them.

A better (but still weak) case could be made for newly created animals in the new creation since the whole salvation history leads us back to the  Garden of Eden before the Fall

There is also the fact that an arbitrary distinction is made between pets and the rest of the animal kingdom, what about roaches, flies, rats, bacteria and so on 

Alain 

 

  

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 7 2010 4:56 PM | Locked

Having successfully restrained myself on replying to posts on this off-topic thread, I encourage others to also take the plunge.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 7 2010 4:57 PM | Locked

Alain,

you are absolutely correct. I really meant what you said but I'm not nearly as articulate as you are.

thank you for providing biblical answers in this thread and many others...I've learned a lot from you brother.

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 376
Dan Sheppard | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 7 2010 6:21 PM | Locked

Alain Maashe:
There is also the fact that an arbitrary distinction is made between pets and the rest of the animal kingdom, what about roaches, flies, rats, bacteria and so on 

 

I suspect politicians will not be there.

 

Posts 2872
Mike Childs | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 7 2010 6:39 PM | Locked

Believe it or not, this whole discussion was helpful to me.  God's concern for the animals came up in Bible study tonight in our study of Genesis chapter 7 (Noah and flood).  Several quotes from this discussion came to mind.

Who'd a thunk it?

"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley

Posts 333
Ralph Mauch | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 7 2010 7:06 PM | Locked

Alain Maashe:

Therefore , not only there is no biblical support for the idea but the text appears to exclude the possiblity by only mentioning the ressurection in relation to redeemed humans who are identified with Christ who atone them.

A better (but still weak) case could be made for newly created animals in the new creation since the whole salvation history leads us back to the  Garden of Eden before the Fall

I don't want to belabor the point, or take issue that we should keep topics about Logos (which I do), but there are answeres in this wonderful Logos resource that should make us think correctly about eschatology. What came to my mind was the prophecy in Isaiah, and searching for "lamb andthe lion" I found the below from Llyod-Jones:

Again, we must avoid speculation about our future life, but it does seem to be quite clear that our heaven will be living in this perfect world where God has made His tabernacle with men and women. The new Jerusalem descends on to the earth (Rev. 21:2) and it is there we shall live, in this wonderful city. Then will be fulfilled what Isaiah prophesied in chapter 11 of his prophecy and again in chapter 65, when nature will no longer be ‘red in tooth and claw’, but ‘the wolf also shall dwell with the lamb’ and ‘the lion shall eat straw like the ox’ (Isa. 11:6-7). The whole creation will have been delivered from the bondage of corruption and will be enjoying ‘the glorious liberty of the children of God’ (Rom. 8:21). Everything will be glorified, even nature itself. And that seems to me to be the biblical teaching about the eternal state: that what we call heaven is life in this perfect world as God intended humanity to live it. When He put Adam in Paradise at the beginning Adam fell, and all fell with him, but men and women are meant to live in the body, and will live in a glorified body in a glorified world and God will be with them.

Whether we shall also share that ultimate heaven in which God dwells, we are not told, and there is a sense in which we do not need to know, for what is important for us is to know that we shall ‘ever be with the Lord’ (1 Thess. 4:17), ever enjoying the glory of God, basking in it, reflecting it, growing in it. That will be our eternal state, our final destiny, our everlasting and eternal condition.

Lloyd-Jones, D. Martyn. The Church and the Last Things. electronic ed.

Alain, there is a lot to think on in that last statment about the "new creation"... we might be focused too much on what we hold as dear to us, but it also would be very Biblical to view God's new creation in prophecy language as that which is found in Isaiah.There's so much more from Scripture that deals with nature, like all of nature eagerly looking for the coming of the Lord (Isa (55:12–13; Rom. 8:19; Pss. 96:11–13; 98:7–9), because Sin has been a burden on all of creation.

 

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Ben Vargh | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 10 2010 12:48 PM | Locked

I want to personally thank all who provided insights and answers. I have been greatly blessed!

Posts 191
Sharon | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 10 2010 2:35 PM | Locked

The power of salvation is in the gospel itself - Romans 1.  Fear of the Lord is the beginning, repentance is the right response.

I wish I had never opened this thread, and I sincerely want to see it shut down, but I can not remain silent when God's truth has been cast aside.

Luther is wrong.  He is contradicting the Word of God.  A false gospel does not bring people into the Kingdom of God, but rather into a deceptive place from which they will be dreadfully horrified once the Lord tells them He never knew them.  The Bible is very clear about this.

We are to be making the way of the Lord smooth - and that is by preaching the truth - repentance.  People are to fear His wrath.  That is His way and He alone is God.

wordcenterministries.org

Posts 8660
TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 10 2010 3:09 PM | Locked

OK guys, it's time to close this thread for good.    It's gone too far afield of Forum Guidelines - several attempts have been made to close it.

 

Hmm Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 

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