Mac Program Question from a recent Mac Convert

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Posts 90
Chris Hulshof | Forum Activity | Posted: Tue, Apr 6 2010 2:47 PM

I'm going to try and ask this discretely enough so that I don't infringe on forum rules here.  I'm a recent Mac convert and the other Bible Software program I use will run on a Mac through something called "WINE and X.11" 

What are those programs?  Are they like Parallels/VMfusion/Bootcamp?

Thanks for the help!

Chris

 

"If heaven ain't a gift I ain't gettin' in." - Lecrae Moore

Posts 505
Michael Kares | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 6 2010 3:37 PM

WINE is a program that allows Windows programs to run on a Mac by translating calls for system resources from Windows commands to Mac commands.  X 11 is a Windowing system used on many Unix systems for rendering windows.  The vanilla WINE project (last time I checked) doesn't have a Graphical User Interface for Mac--everything needs to run from Terminal.  Codeweavers provides an implementation of WINE called CrossOver that gives WINE a GUI on Mac.  Code Weavers website is www.codeweavers.com  The program is free to try for 30 days so that you can see if it meets your needs.

 

Hope this helps

Michael Kares

Posts 90
Chris Hulshof | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 6 2010 4:38 PM

Michael,

Thanks for the info.  That helps me understand what it it.  It sounds like it is similar to fusion/bootcamp/parallels.  I think the program must come with WINE & X.11.  Here's how their intro to the Mac version of their product reads...

"W********* for Mac is a Windows program running on the Mac through WINE and X.11. While it is powerful and easy to use, it has the look and feel of Windows and somewhat slower screen updating."

Have you ever used a product that runs on a Mac through WINE?

Chris

"If heaven ain't a gift I ain't gettin' in." - Lecrae Moore

Posts 505
Michael Kares | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 6 2010 5:43 PM

I have, but in my experience features didn't always work as they should have.  However, that probably won't be your experience using Randy Beck's product since I', sure they made sure Wine was able to handle all their program's features.  I used to own said program on Windows (technically I still do) and thought about purchasing their Mac product when I switched to Mac, but the language tool deficiencies caused me to purchase Logos instead.

Posts 505
Michael Kares | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 6 2010 5:48 PM

Also, WINE is different than Paralells and VMWare Fusion.  These programs are "virtual Machines" meaning they emulate another computer and load a complete OS into your memory alongside OS X.  Usually there is a performance hit while running a VM.  WINE is not an emulator per say, but a translator.  For lack of a better analogy, WINE translates "Windowsese" into "UNIXese" or "Linuxese" depending on what your host operating system is.  WINE basically makes sure all your windows programs get all the resources they are requesting.

Posts 1416
Wes Saad | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 6 2010 6:14 PM

In a sense, WINE pretends to be a copy of Windows. Programs like Parallels/VMWare Fusion ARE copies of Windows (or rather, they run Windows). Wine is very limited in what it can do. Logos will not run properly through Wine.

Crossover is a commercial version of Wine. Crossover can do more than Wine, but you still won't be able to run Logos 4 through Crossover.

If you want to run the full blown Logos 4 on a Mac, you will have to use a virtual machine like Parallels or Fusion. Virtualbox is another option possibly worth checking into.

Posts 90
Chris Hulshof | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 6 2010 8:52 PM

Michael,

I use Logos almost exclusively.  However, Randy Beck's program has a couple or commentary resources that Logos does not offer (John Phillips Commentary Series being one of them) that I like to consult.  Until Logos has this source (and the other couple) I was trying to understand how his Mac set-up works.  Your info helps a lot.  I don't want any Windows stuff on my Mac and was hesitant if it ran like Parallels or Fusion.

 

Chris,

I was not planning on using WINE for Logos I just wondered how it would integrate with a Mac.  I am waiting for the MBP refresh before I jump into L4 for Mac.  My Alienware was DOA and I got my $$$ back for it so I'm sitting on it until the MBP refresh comes out.  In the meantime, my wife wanted a Mac Mini for our home cpu and after messing around with it and learning some basic in's and out's of a Mac I pushed aside any thought of getting a Windows laptop with my $$$.   Glad I crossed over!

Chris

"If heaven ain't a gift I ain't gettin' in." - Lecrae Moore

Posts 10729
Forum MVP
Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 7 2010 3:22 AM

Chris Hulshof:
I don't want any Windows stuff on my Mac and was hesitant if it ran like Parallels or Fusion.

Why not? I have been a Mac user since 1984, but I use Parallels to run Logos under Windows. With P-5 you can isolate Windows from the Internet and practically eliminate the malware threat. 

Mac, Windows, or Linux are all tools. Use the tool that gets the job done. Why pass up all the resources available in Logos? If you must use WINE to run an application, it it a Windows app, and you still have Windows stuff on your computer.

Posts 90
Chris Hulshof | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 12 2010 6:31 AM

Sorry to resurrect this after not following up with the question I had in response to the previous posts.....does that mean using WINE will mean installing XP or 7 in order for it to run?

New Mac Book Pros look closer to hitting the market now (macrumours) looks like they will be available before L4 goes Beta.

Chris

"If heaven ain't a gift I ain't gettin' in." - Lecrae Moore

Posts 505
Michael Kares | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 12 2010 8:05 AM

Nope.  No windows version required

Posts 228
Stephen | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 12 2010 8:09 AM

Chris,

   you will not have to install XP. What WINE does is it allows windows programs to run on a Mac (some of them) It is an easier way to port windows programs over to Mac. When they do this you are running a windows programs and they can have limitations. They do this so that they can sell windows programs to Mac users without having to rewrite the code. Logos took a different approach as all the base code for both the windows and Mac versions is written in one language then they wrote all the GUI's for the Mac (the front end we see) in objective C I believe which allows us to have a truer Mac experience. They were able to do this using Mono (which I really don't understand but I know is not the one that will make you sick for a week) which allows the Mac front end to access the base code.

 

With WINE it's not a Virtual machine like Fusion/Parellels which allow you to have another computer in a virtual enviroment that acts completely on it's own. WINE can have limitations porting the code to windows. I've seen some other Bible software for Mac that uses WINE and is simply a port of the windows program. I chose not to go with those because as a Mac user I didn't want simply a port of a windows program (I left windows for a reason), I want software that was designed for a Mac. While Logos is not 100% percent designed for a Mac, the user interface is and that what I see. I didn't want a step child of a windows program. Even though being a mac user I didn't like waiting for the windows version to be done and then having to wait for the mac version, I understand the business reasons for doing it that way. Now if the rest of the world would just wake up and make the jump!Stick out tongue 

 

Posts 90
Chris Hulshof | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 12 2010 6:54 PM

Michael,

Thanks for returning to the conversation.  That's exactly the info I was looking for.

 

Stephen,

You are right in that it is Randy Beck's Bible Software that uses WINE and since he's the only one who offers John Phillips, the Reformed Expository Commentary, and a couple others that I use on his software I am limited to using WINE if I want to put it on the new Mac Book Pro when they come out.  I'm glad that the Zondervan titles I use have made it to Logos since I now only use two Bible Software programs instead of three.

 

Chris

"If heaven ain't a gift I ain't gettin' in." - Lecrae Moore

Posts 90
Chris Hulshof | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 21 2010 2:05 PM

Picked up a new MBP on Saturday.  Before I add (hopefully on Monday) the two Bible Software Program's I use - one last quick WINE question.  Since WINE does not require a Windows OS to run am I safe from the virus' that are PC based?  I'm not interested in a discussion on if there are or aren't Mac virus - I just want to know if by adding Randy Beck's Mac Bible software that runs on Wine to my MBP I will need to be vigilant with PC virus protection since it's a PC ported program.

Thanks,

Chris

"If heaven ain't a gift I ain't gettin' in." - Lecrae Moore

Posts 505
Michael Kares | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 21 2010 2:15 PM

No, you won't.  Enjoy the New MBP!  I'll be using a Spring 09 white MB for quite a long time...

Posts 90
Chris Hulshof | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 21 2010 3:25 PM

Thanks Michael.

I got 5 years out of my old Dell Inspiron 9300 which is on its last leg right now (no battery, cd drive that doesn't work, and not enough juice to meet the L4 requirements).  I'm expecting to get that (and then some?) out of this MBP.  Hopefully a lot more then the 27 days I got of my first attempted update with Alienware.

Chris

 

"If heaven ain't a gift I ain't gettin' in." - Lecrae Moore

Posts 90
Chris Hulshof | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 5 2010 7:22 AM

Michael....Randy Beck's Bible Software works well when it runs through Wine and X11 and my new MBP.  I do get a chuckle out of those who complain about L4 Mac Alpha and it's development.  There are a couple of glitches that, while they don't stop the program from working, are just annoying (a small loading window that doesn't go away and must be moved, etc...).  Theses annoyances get the tech support answer of "that will be corrected in our July update."  Can you imagine if we got that response when we posted a log here.  The folks over there at Randy Beck's Texas headquarters have asked me on a couple of occasions to compare the two Bible Software programs.  I've said one's a chainsaw and the other is a surgeon's scalpel.  Beck's program is efficient at allowing me to do a quick and easy study while Logos gives me the ability to dig in much more deeply at a specific text.  As a pastor, I begin with the other program for a quick start to sermon prep and then migrate to Logos for the bulk of the study.

Chris

 

"If heaven ain't a gift I ain't gettin' in." - Lecrae Moore

Posts 399
Wilson Hines | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 5 2010 1:10 PM

Jack Caviness:

Chris Hulshof:
I don't want any Windows stuff on my Mac and was hesitant if it ran like Parallels or Fusion.

Why not? I have been a Mac user since 1984, but I use Parallels to run Logos under Windows. With P-5 you can isolate Windows from the Internet and practically eliminate the malware threat. 

Mac, Windows, or Linux are all tools. Use the tool that gets the job done. Why pass up all the resources available in Logos? If you must use WINE to run an application, it it a Windows app, and you still have Windows stuff on your computer.

I bought my MacBook Pro on the 15th of April, just a week before Chris got his).  This is my Switch.  I mean, I've been a Winders user since Logos 1.x5  I bought my first PC and spent the next three days scouring Christian bookstores for software and just dug through the deluge of messware and found a box of Logos 1.5.  This was 1994!  

 

When I  made the conversion to mac I thought I was going to run parallels or something so I could run Office and maybe L3/L4.  I have no interest in doing that, at all.  I will just plug my way through the ALPHA and BETA of L4 - and so far, so good.  

The reason, and you did ask why, is rather simple: programs that are "native" Mac, either developed by Apple or dedicated Mac developers, seem to JUST WORK and integrate with OSX flawlessly.  While programs that are cross platform, like many of Adobe's tools, don't take advantage and stay faithful to the Mac UI.  

I figure if it wasn't built for a Mac, I'm not interested.  Logos seemed to have learned this the first time around.  They have a staff of MAC developers working on the Mac side now.  Guys who live, eat, and breathe Mac.  

I've turned into a purist all within a month.  I never installed any type of vm and I don't even use Office for the Mac.  I simply went to Pages and quite frankly, it works.  It just simply works.  I focus on the paper I'm writing, not trying to get the word processor to do or undo something it won't do ;)

All that being said, I do understand your comment that all of these things are just tools.  That makes sense, I just decided to use one tool :)

Wilson Hines

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