It has been asked many times, It will continue to be asked - Why does LOGOS refuse to add a pdf format reader/library to the LOGOS system.
I have, I believe answered this question in a previous Blog concerning the financial concerns of LOGOS allowing "Free" books added to their program.
LOGOS on the other hand states WHY add this since their are so many other readers available. If we were to examine this response we would have to answere WHY LOGOS? There are many readers of books available..
So we are stuck between Corporate concerns and Adding Convience for cusstomers to LOGOS.
I would like to add one more reason for inclusion of Pdfs to LOGOS.
LOGOS Corporate conc erns for selling books is causing a non-intentional PREJUDICE to adding RESOURCES to the library.
As a Mennonite I find it disturbing that little can be found in the way of denomination books for my faith. These are not UNKNOW BOOK but are Historically KEY BOOKS to any Christian library. The reason is that LOGOS does not believe demand can justify the expense. This is where Pdfs can fill tghe BLANKS in our libraries. Not just for Mennonite Books - but for many NON-COMMERCIALLY viable BOOKS.
PLEASE SEND some of your reqested books which are found on Pdf but are not considered by LOGOS.....
"""""""" JUST A FEW
Thank You and God Bless
fRED
Fred Morgan: It has been asked many times, It will continue to be asked - Why does LOGOS refuse to add a pdf format reader/library to the LOGOS system. I have, I believe answered this question in a previous Blog concerning the financial concerns of LOGOS allowing "Free" books added to their program. LOGOS on the other hand states WHY add this since their are so many other readers available. If we were to examine this response we would have to answere WHY LOGOS? There are many readers of books available..
The problem with a PDF reader is it is poinless as your files aren't indexed,..
Fred Morgan:So we are stuck between Corporate concerns and Adding Convience for cusstomers to LOGOS. I would like to add one more reason for inclusion of Pdfs to LOGOS. LOGOS Corporate concerns for selling books is causing a non-intentional PREJUDICE to adding RESOURCES to the library.
LOGOS Corporate concerns for selling books is causing a non-intentional PREJUDICE to adding RESOURCES to the library.
Sorry but with Logos 3, and PBB these "financial and predudicial concerns" argument is blown away.....
just look at http://www.stilltruth.com/page/libronix_pbb_files at come of the user contributrd resources.. and I think you may need to rethink your position
PBB is coming back in v4, hopefully by end off year
Never Deprive Anyone of Hope.. It Might Be ALL They Have
Hi Fred,
It is good to see what appears to be another Anabaptist here. If you do a search for "journals" in the forums you will come across a thread that myself, Rosie and a few others were talking about Anabaptist Journals and the lesser known, non-website publishers for the Anabaptist theology.
God bless,
Rick
Peace
Romans 14:19 (NRSV) 19 Let us then pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding.
Fred Morgan:Why does LOGOS refuse to add a pdf format reader/library to the LOGOS system.
You can make links to PDF documents - I have a large PDF section in favorites. But there is no advantage to adding a PDF reader to Logos unless Logos chose to create the ability to attach notes to PDF's where the notes were stored and searchable within Logos. Logos does support a PDF library at http://books.logos.com/
I do not see Logos concentrating on what sells as prejudice. There are far more traditions that are omitted than are included. Lutheran, Catholic and Jewish presses have addressed the issue by partnering with Logos. Have you considered approaching Mennonite presses and asking them to partner with Logos?
Logos4catholics Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."
Another issue that kind of relates to a lack of PBB and a lack of a way to add PDF files to Logos 4, is the fact that there are many folks that would like to have these things all in one program rather than using several different programs, I think this is a good thing for Logos. If a person such as myself can have everything in one program it becomes easier to spend all my money with Logos and to stop looking at the competions programs to fulfill my needs. The results would be I would be more faithful to Logos, which would be a positive thing for them.
But, what has happened, at least for me in the last 6 months has been a forced shift to other sources to fulfill my needs. I will not do without the many free and helpful public domain resources I have, and I don't have too! Rather than waiting for Logos 4 to bring back my pbb files, I have turned to putting my public domain books into another bible study program. This program is easy to use and allows me to put the books that I want into the program with ease. I can hyper-link verses, place the books in collections and search them. Sure it is not as nice as it would be to have everything in Logos, but at least I have them in a program that I can use them and have easy access to them and different bibles and resources. I can take notes in this system and even write a book in it, and it prints! if Logos would have done things differently I would not even be using this other program.
The result has been, I am shifting away from the hope that Logos will be the one program that can do everything for me!
At one time I had also hoped that, I could get brothers and sisters with little money into a less expensive Logos program and then allow them to cheaply add pbb resources to the smaller program until they saw the need for and could afford the more expensive Logos packages, but I am not waiting, I am now giving these people a completely free program with over 1000 resources already in it. For many of these people they will have little reason to ever change over to Logos, because this other program will meet their needs, they will do wiithout copyridghted books.
I really would have liked to have seen Logos get these people involved with their software, even at one of their lower price packages, and then have tons of public domain resources they could add to those packages for free or even allow them to put their own public domain resources into the program, then as they grew, they would have been more likely to upgrade to Logos more epensive bigger packages or buy books one at a time. But at least they would have been in Logos!!!
The way it is, they will have no connection to Logos and they may just stay with what they have or buy a cheaper commerical software to get copyrighted materials.
I have been discouraged by what has happened.
In Christ,
Jim
JimVanSchoonhoven:The result has been, I am shifting away from the hope that Logos will be the one program that can do everything for me!
I've never expect Logos to do everything for me. In fact, I would be interested in what features people go outside of Logos to do. For example:
1) for the Vulgate I go to free software that includes the Glossa Ordinaria
2) for doctrine I go to either of two free denominational programs
3) for diagramming sentences I frequently go to a linguist tree diagram
4) for webs, networks and mindmaps I go to an educational software package
5) for presentation, lesson handouts, reflections (lay sermons) I use an open source suite
6) for L3 resource creation (timelines, lectionaries, PBB's) I use an HTML/XML editor
7) for English dictionaries, I often switch to word-net style resources (both on my computer and on the web)
8) for lectionary/prayer book references, I switch to specialized software (outside my denomination)
9) for PDF's I frequently use a non-standard reader/converter
I don't expect Logos to ever replace all these functions. On the other hand, my list of outside software has gone down as Logos capabilities rise. I have dropped both a timeline and a Kellogg-Reed sentence diagramming applications. And I have links within Logos to open my additional applications. To me, I starting Bible Study app requires only a handful of resources:
I would be leery of giving them 1000 resources - too much temptation to spend one's time on what others have said about the Bible rather than studying the Bible.
MJ. Smith, how many resources would you give them?
I'd just like to chip in with some technical issues, since this issue may not actually be as simple as it might appear.
Whilst the PDF format is one that has been well understood for some time now, unless the Logos 4 programmers were to write a PDF reader from scratch, they'd either have to talk to Adobe (doubtful, both in intent and possibility of success) or work off one of the many open sourced PDF readers. This second source, though, is fraught with legal hurdles depending on the open source licenses covering that code - for example, some licenses require that any code that uses the open source code must itself become publicly open, which would be problematic for Logos' business model I imagine.
The PDF format is actually built for conveying documents in a consistent-to-print format. That is, in theory, if I printed a PDF document off my PC, and you print it off your Mac, we'd both get the same result. So, PDF's maintain page formatting and so-forth. Logos 4, as far as I know, is not a document-to-print application. It's built for optimising reading off the screen. This means that the fundamental architectures of PDF and Logos are at odds.
So there are actual technical hurdles to putting PDF into Logos, and so the PBB route, as others have already mentioned, seems to be the best way forward in this regard.
JimVanSchoonhoven:MJ. Smith, how many resources would you give them?
I would give them the 5 listed above. I would encourage them to expand the number of translations they had and then have them start adding commentaries. I have noticed that I have a different base metaphor for Bible study than many on the forums. I think of Bible study primarily as a conversation with God - my Bible study tools are merely conversation starters. Many on the forum appear to have a metaphor of study as in an academic study of a fixed (dead) text in which they enlist the help of the Holy Spirit in ferreting out truth and application through their Bible Study tools.
I can see how the second metaphor encourages the use of more resources but I would still be concerned about overwhelming people with hundreds of resources rather than a handpicked few. Now that 'handpicked" few would vary both by denomination and by interests and education of the user. But when I teach Bible study I try hard to encourage all the students to start with the Scripture and nothing but the Scripture (except dictionary, timeline, maps) then move towards commentaries, Early Church Fathers, art inspired by Scripture, etc. [I can't resist: should I call it the Catholic "sola scriptura" method? ]
So why do I include the Catechism in the initial resources? Simply to allow the linking of theological questions back to Scripture - and eventually Early Church Fathers and church documents. For many churches I would replace it with a creedal statement with scriptural references.
So why commentaries so "late"? My concern is that many Bible study programs and commentaries lead one to a particular expectation as to what God wishes to talk about. I prefer that it be left to God to determine the direction of the conversation - He knows what I need to hear and may use the text as a springboard to that topic rather than what the text I started with means. Note that when preparing reflections (lay homilies), I use a pattern much closer to the academic metaphor.
More than you asked, but ...
Jason Au:So there are actual technical hurdles to putting PDF into Logos,
Well stated
DominicM: The problem with a PDF reader is it is poinless as your files aren't indexed,..
I've got over 1000 (just checked - over 2000 files; over 3 gig) pdf files -- books and journal articles. These are all entered into Zotero which does index them. It's a snap to search all these. It would be nice to have them all in L4, but not something high on my need list.
πάντα εἰς δόξαν θεοῦ ποιεῖτε
Hello and God Bless - I am very happy to see the response. This is alway the first step to change. I apoligize for spelling and typing.. currently recovering from stroke.
As for this Blog... I have used Pdfs which seemed to be the best way to introduce the problem of not having the resources available except those which a FINANCABLY VIABLE to LOGOS.
Some Quick Answers... THUS FAR.
1- ADOBE Pdf can be changed very EASILY to HTML and can be made Indexable quite easily you can even cut and copy to your favorite word processor (Providing the Pdf is open). Those with Adobe Pro or those with using Open Source programs like Open Office know that this processs works in both directions. Word or Text can be made Pdf's or HTML with most word processors automatically.
2- PBB are just a propriatary book system which allows LOGOS to maintain control of book and resources published to LOGOS... They allow you a usable Book but hold back many LOGOS features... thus if LOGOS decides to publish a book which is already available in PBB form they will still give you features to assure your purchase. Those using Libronix 3 with PBB know this. Many well know works are available in PBB form from "Truth is Still Truth" website, but are not as usable as the LOGOS version.
3- If LOGOS wanted a Simple automatic PDF (html, Word, etc.,) to Simple PBB format book converasion. this could be added, Not that complicate. Open Source programs do this routeinly with Pdf format files. PDF are not as complicated to transfer as imagined... just check freeware and opensource programs.. THEY DO THIS WITH AT HOME PROGRAMMERS!
4- Publishers being added to LOGOS list of cooperating Publishers is NOT an ANSWER. Try finding Holman's very popular series of "Quicksource Guides". Just because a publisher is in the LOGOS group does not mean LOGOS will release the resource. It has to be a FINANCIAL decision by LOGOS. Some3 books like Martyrs Mirror are public domain... yet these to are not found in the LOGOS resources of PrePubs. I understand LOGOS is a business. I tend to believe LOGOS business should be the LOGOS library reader and not the LOGOS publishing business.
5- If Financial viabilty is allowed to be the only reason for release - then thousands of very important resource will not be available except through Limited ability PBBs whenever these are re-added. (No Financial reason to hurry) These of course will be available only by those which purchase the purchase the PBB authoring programs discresion on which books they want to make. Of course you to may purchased the PBB Authoring program and make your own inferior copy of a current available HTML or Pdf book.
5- Pdfs could be add in current form - I agree this is not my real intent but I would like this over nothing. Some LOGOS users do use other Software with LOGOS and have managed this well... GOOD FOR YOU. May God bless your studies. I wish I could appreciate this as you do.
6- Other Bible software does offer some great feature to add indexed works without expensive add-ins. This is a choose, I for one like my LOGOS to much to change and I am not capable of learning and using two systems at once. Nor do I see how this is benifical in doing easy functional reasearch.
When I buy a library program I like it to be really open to the many publication that I want. I am sure this is of concern to most of us when we purchased LOGOS years ago (or recently). I love my LOGOS but miss the ability of using resource which are I believe essential for Bible study. Especially those in my denomination. Books like the writting of Menno Simons or Martyr's Mirror or Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs... are more useful than PRE PUBS of Theologies which LOGOS have in Multitudes or Another set of Commentaries to add to LOGOS hundred of Commentaries.
I stated that this is Censorship..... and it is but not of intent of my DENOMINATION (I Pray!) But I also PRAY that the owners and managers of LOGO will remember that they should not YOKE THEIR PROGRAM to MAMMON. I would pray that LOGOS would start re-evaluating some of the SUGGESTIONS submitted on the basis of "DO WE HAVE THIS RESORSE IN SOME FORM ALREAD - AND WOULD THIS RESOURCE BE AN ADDITION - NOT A RE-ADDITION OF THE SAME OLD....." What do I mean by this.... SIMPLE: would you like you library to have only Thirty Different Encyclopedias but no Biographies? --- When LOGOS excludes these works which are not as often used and only present the works which sell the most - WE LOOSE! No: Meno Simmons - Dirk Phillips - Michael Sattler - Pilgram Marpeck - Conrad Gable - LeLand Harder - Balthauser Hubmaier ----- Classics like The Martyrs Mirror - The Hutterite Big Book----- NOR WRITERS LIKE KEN HAM - DAVID BERCOT - WORKS FROM MINISTRIES LIKE "LIGHTHOUSE OF UTAH" "M&M" - --- PUBLISHERS LIKE SCROLL - ROD AND STAFF - HEROLD PRESS - PATHWAY - CHRISTIAN LIGHT - LAMP AND LIGHT AND THOSE FROM OTHER DENOMINATION WHICH SARE IN THE WORD OF GOD MANY BOOKS OF CHRISTIAN USE.
I appreciate the comments.... KEEP THEM COMING... God Bless your concerns and REMEMBER- don't belittle ANYONE. We are all one in Christ Jesus.
Those with negative comments or wish to berate these or other... Please go to the Agnostic Forum...If you can't find it just keep looking.
REMEMBER also to ADD your BOOK List that LOGOS has be ignoring in the suggestion FORUM.
In Christ
Jeff
The Writings of Pilgram Marpeck (Classics of the Radical Reformation, vol. 2) Anabaptism in Outline: Selected Primary Sources (Classics of the Radical Reformation series, vol. 3) (Walter Klaassen, ed.) The Sources of Swiss Anabaptism (Classics of the Radical Reformation series, vol. 4) (Conrad Grebel, Leland Harder, ed.) Balthasar Hübmaier: Theologian of Anabaptism (Classics of the Radical Reformation, vol. 5) (Balthasar Hübmaier) The Writings of Dirk Philips
Sorry - not quite factual - just check public domain, freeware and open source and pdfs - Open Source and private programers work with pdf all the time... Most Word processors have the ability to convert to and from PDF and HTML even CUT and Copy is available in most Pdf's. Open Office the FREE Microsoft Office look a like (but actually better) has this capability. Some Bible libraries also have the PDF or Book add function. PBB Authoring actually uses HTML for a basis whcih Pdfs can be easilly converted to. But all this is not really the problem. The problem is that many book and resources are being denied. Even a book indexed only by title is better than no resource. Blessings and thanks for looking.
Blessings
Thanks again for your reply... However I do not agree with it.... I do thank you for your reply.
As for LOGOS 3 PBBs - they were only available for publication from those who would Purchase the Authoring Program - NOW USELESS for LOGOS4. These were also very limited thus leaving LOGOS the ability to re-Issue a better version.
PBBs could be derived from HTML - My Adobe Pro will output to HTML as will my Open Office. Disreguard PDFs how about ANY FORMAT of resource. LOGOS is PROPRIATARTY for what reason??? Honestly - we understand finance and business... We also understand the Yoke of the Word and Mammon. We must balance the two toallow LOGOS the ability to offer all resources not just those financially Viable...
Not releasing a book because it is not financially viable is not intentional Prejudice against my denomination but the end is the same..... I LOOSE!a
God Bless
PDFS formatting is at odds with LOGOS. This is intentional since both are propriatary. However Pdfs can be changed-cut/pasted(if Open) and made from many word processors. They can even be converted to HTML - HTML was the basis of LOGO PBBs........ LOGOS in Open SOURCE would remove this hurtle in a matter of days... Open Source is not going to happen. LOGOS will not remove propriatary license... I don't blame them, they are in it for the profit.
I just want the concern of non-financially viable resources being overlooked for released.
PBB THOUGH USEFUL- ARE NOT THE ANSWER.
Thank you for your time and concern. I really appreciate your comments.
God Bless you and your family.
Blessings brother,
several brother in my church use LOGOS and are also concerned that less finacally viable books such as those listed in the original post are overlooked for the SAME OLD COMMENTARIES, THEOLOGIES AND DICTIONARIES. All are usefull but were are the other books?
Anyways... we live in Bloundtstown Florida in a small 1950's resettlement community. I pray that god may bless all and stir the hearts of all christian to concerns of our denomination. We are all in Christ Jesus and except our gift ov salvation.
May God Bless you.
Fill free to write - morganfj -at- gmail -dot- com 0r morganfj at facebook - see profile for webpage.
Blessings - Thanks for the Zotero TIP - I have been using AstroGrep for searching WORD file but need something for Pdf's.
KEEP the REPLYS COMING.... WILL answer all I can.
Books not being offered becasue they are not Financally Viable.
GOD BLESS Jeff
Fred Morgan:As for this Blog... I have used Pdfs which seemed to be the best way to introduce the problem of not having the resources available except those which a FINANCABLY VIABLE to LOGOS.
Obviously, if Logos spends their resources on creating books that are not financially viable, we all lose out - Logos ceases to exist. Note that there are few resources for my tradition.
Fred Morgan:ADOBE Pdf can be changed very EASILY to HTML
While I admit that there are many tools that do this easily, I've never found one that does it well. Why? Because the PDF over specifies the layout and removing all the formatting that belongs in style sheets not HTML is a nuisance. Not to mention I'd rather work in XML.
Fred Morgan:PBB are just a propriatary book system which allows LOGOS to maintain control of book and resources published to LOGOS..
As one who has created many PBB's, I find it mind-boggling to consider PBB's as a way to maintain control. I am very anxious for PBB's that don't have some of the limits of L3 but rather let us build full Logos resources. I see PBB's as a way to allow us to include documents in Logos indices and searches. If I don't need the links, there is no reason to put it in Logos format
Fred Morgan: PDF are not as complicated to transfer as imagined... just check freeware and opensource programs.. THEY DO THIS WITH AT HOME PROGRAMMERS!
I have checked freeware and opensource programs - none of which work as well as you seem to assume. Admittedly, as a retired (home) programmer, my expectations are high. I'm not sure that you recognize the difference between a conversion that appears to "work" but that limits the presentation and linkage options and a document in its native format. PDF's, HTML, PBB all are specific formats designed for a particular purpose. Using them as if they were something else is usually a recipe for disaster.
Fred Morgan: If LOGOS wanted a Simple automatic PDF (html, Word, etc.,) to Simple PBB format book converasion
In Logos 3 the conversion from Word and HTML was a simple conversion with the resultant limitations on linkage. I understand that the L4 version will have fewer limitations which I suspect means that there is more (optional) manual work required on the creator's part.
Fred Morgan: Publishers being added to LOGOS list of cooperating Publishers is NOT an ANSWER.
Here you've made assumptions that I did not mean to imply. I believe that it would be empirically provable that the quantity of Lutheran, Catholic and Jewish resources has been increased by the partnerships with particular presses. Standard and Nelson both publish items with Logos disks in them. I was not thinking of those publishers from whom Logos purchases specific rights. So it's not an answer from your perspective; it's still a help from mine. Then, again, I think we are seeking different resources.
Fred Morgan: If Financial viabilty is allowed to be the only reason for release - then thousands of very important resource will not be available except through Limited ability PBBs whenever these are re-added
The new PBB's are to be in full Logos 4 format. For PBB's the primary reason for develop may well be personal interest rather than financial. I've never expected a physical library to have everything I might want for a particular research project - that's a reason for friends and inter-library loan. I don't expect Logos to have everything, I expect it's offerings to continue to grow influenced by the needs of the individuals using the product.
Fred Morgan:Pdfs could be add in current form
True, but I fail to see what this gains us over Favorites and a reader of our choice. There are other features I'd much rather have Logos focus its resources on.
Fred Morgan:Other Bible software does offer some great feature to add indexed works without expensive add-ins.
In Logos 4 the concept of "add-ins" is being dropped.
Fred Morgan:I stated that this is Censorship..... and it is but not of intent of my DENOMINATION (I Pray!) But I also PRAY that the owners and managers of LOGO will remember that they should not YOKE THEIR PROGRAM to MAMMON.
Now I have two questions for you: