Patristic References/Citations

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Andrew | Forum Activity | Posted: Wed, Dec 13 2017 10:16 AM

I am working with the early church fathers and running into some challenges.

The reference system for the early church fathers doesn't seem to be standardized.  For example, I found a quote labeled "De Principiis 4.3.4" labelled "Orig., De princ. 4.1.19" in Logos.  Another example is that when referring to the Shepherd of Hermas, “mandates" in some editions are “commandments".

  • Is there some way to check up these "conversions" from one citation system to another?
  • Where can I review Logo's citation abbreviations to, for example, figure out that "De Principiis" is abbreviated as "Orig., De princ."?

As a side question, is it possible to use the go box to jump directly to a Patristic reference?  (For example, "Orig., De princ. 1.1.2")?

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 13 2017 10:50 AM

Andrew:
The reference system for the early church fathers doesn't seem to be standardized.  For example, I found a quote labeled "De Principiis 4.3.4" labelled "Orig., De princ. 4.1.19" in Logos.  Another example is that when referring to the Shepherd of Hermas, “mandates" in some editions are “commandments".

It's not clear what you're referring to here. In the text of a resource, Logos will maintain whatever the original author/publisher used. But the link itself will be standardised. However,, sometimes with the Fathers some of the precision is lost — so De Principiis 4.3.4 might just be linked to De Principiis 4.3.4. This is done so that users who don't have resources with the full level of precision are still able to open the link.

There is also the occasional issue when different referencing systems are in use, and resources use both. I can't remember any from memory (apart from Josephus), but I think it happens sometimes in the Fathers.

Andrew:
As a side question, is it possible to use the go box to jump directly to a Patristic reference?  (For example, "Orig., De princ. 1.1.2")?

Yes and No. It works with some datatype reference formats, but not with others (I think the long version is OK, the short version not). It's a real pain, as it means you have to know which resource/series to look up in, which isn't always obvious.

My work around is to create a Passage List, and add the reference to the passage List. It then becomes hyperlinked and you can then click on it to open the resource. I'm not 100% sure it works for all patristic references, but it should be OK for the majority.

Andrew:
Where can I review Logo's citation abbreviations to, for example, figure out that "De Principiis" is abbreviated as "Orig., De princ."?

There's no definitive list. Most datatypes have multiple formats (short and long). So "Orig., De princ. 4.1.1" is also "Origen, First Principles, 4.1.1". Author datatypes are the hardest to work out. The closest we have is this: https://wiki.logos.com/Author_Datatypes, but that just shows the short version. The passage list workaround above will also show both long/short versions and different parts of the process.

I'm aware that not everything I've said may make sense! Please feel free to follow-up. Specific examples (with links) may help.

Posts 246
Andrew | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 13 2017 11:42 AM

Thank you for your response Mark.

What I am saying is that the hard-copy book I am looking at has "De Principiis 4.3.4" but I found the quote at "Orig., De princ. 4.1.19" in Logos.  (Similar situation with "mandates" vs "commandments" in the Shepherd of Hermas).

As you mentioned, it seems different referencing systems are in use.  Is there a way to "covert" from one referencing system to another?  In other words, I found "De Principiis 4.3.4" in my book, so how am I supposed to know that this is equivalent to "Orig., De princ. 4.1.19" in Logos?  Or that "De Cherub" is "On Dreams"?  Can the Logos program help?  Maybe a resource, book or website?

Mark Barnes:
There is also the occasional issue when different referencing systems are in use, and resources use both. I can't remember any from memory (apart from Josephus), but I think it happens sometimes in the Fathers.

Are you saying Logos itself sometimes uses different referencing systems (ie 2 resources may use different referencing systems) or noting that some resources are tagged with multiple reference systems (eg. On Abraham 68 = On Abraham 15)?

Mark Barnes:
My work around is to create a Passage List, and add the reference to the passage List. It then becomes hyperlinked and you can then click on it to open the resource. I'm not 100% sure it works for all patristic references, but it should be OK for the majority.

Are you saying you have Passage List with hyperlinks to various Patristic works?

Mark Barnes:
The passage list workaround above will also show both long/short versions and different parts of the process.

I only see the short version (eg. Orig., De princ., Pref.) in the passage list.

I also think it is interesting that I can't add the reference "De Principiis" through the right-click menu, but can manually add "Origen, First Principles" to my passage list.

Posts 246
Andrew | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 26 2017 8:49 AM

Anyone have some insight/suggestions?

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 26 2017 12:02 PM

Just so you don't think the issue is unimportant in Logos, 'no' to your question. Mark's solution is the only realistic one. 

Though I do like the Libronix 3 method of handling multiple indices.


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Ken McGuire | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 26 2017 4:47 PM

At the risk of talking down to you, let me try explaining how many of the patristic references are made.

Someone wrote something in some language in the ancient world in some language. The author may have given it a title and divided it into "books". Even if the author didn't do this themselves, often this was done in in the ancient world.

Most of us are in the "West" and so heard about these works via the Latin tradition which would talk about them using Latin Titles. For example, Origen's theological work known as "Peri Archon" in Greek gets known as "De Principiis" in Latin. Both titles can be abbreviated in various ways...

Often in medieval times the work was further sub-divided into "chapters" for reference. In modern times it is further sub-divided into paragraphs. Often both the chapters and paragraph numbers restart only with every book. It is not unusual for there to be multiple different paragraph numbering schemes in various 18th and 19th century editions, with some editions (and numbering schemes) favored in different nations or ecclesiastical bodies. Some times a citation would include both the chapter and paragraph, even if this is redundant. Other times it only includes the chapter OR paragraph. In general, the Logos datatypes include both chapter and paragraph...

Popular and devotional works were often translated into various vernacular languages - like our English - fairly early. More technical works generally stayed in Latin, because anyone who was educated in just about any field in the West knew Latin (and often Greek) until about a hundred years ago and so can just look it up in Migne... Often there is a standard English name for these works - so "Peri Archon" becomes "On First Principles" in English. These English titles can also be abbreviated in various ways...

However, sometimes an author will write multiple different works on a topic - at different times or for different audiences - and their titles can be similar and whenever even just a title is translated there are choices made. So it can sometimes be a bit confusing what exactly the work is. Nowadays there are style guides that offer consistent references especially for academic writing on them. But a lot of works in our libraries were written before these style guides were even created. And some works are written which ignore these guides.

Often works which cite the fathers are written by people who are just copying another scholar's patristic citations, and so more inconsistencies (and typos) work their way in. In making some PB editions of various works, I found that the only way I could make sure there was a valid Logos link was to check each one manually because of all these overlapping and conflicting systems. I have also found that, in general, Logos published editions have not done this. It is seems rather "if it compiles, it is good." Most of the time it works. Sometimes not so much. Sometimes I report them as typos. Other times I don't bother.

And then there are writers like Aristotle where the standard citation is by page number and line number of an early printed edition...

Yeah, for "Shepherd" (sometimes called "Pastor") some authors call a section "Mandates" and others "Commandments". How are you supposed to know they are the same thing? Well - by working in the field. Having some basic language skills in these ancient languages helps...

It is, in all honesty, a mess. I am quite impressed that Logos does as well as it does with it - even if I wished for more. But how much more are YOU willing to pay for this expensive manual reworking of often public domain titles?

The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann

Posts 246
Andrew | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 26 2017 5:50 PM

Ken McGuire:

At the risk of talking down to you, let me try explaining how many of the patristic references are made.

...

Yeah, for "Shepherd" (sometimes called "Pastor") some authors call a section "Mandates" and others "Commandments". How are you supposed to know they are the same thing? Well - by working in the field. Having some basic language skills in these ancient languages helps...

Thank you - This was actually very helpful.

Ken McGuire:

Sometimes I report them as typos. Other times I don't bother.

...

It is, in all honesty, a mess. I am quite impressed that Logos does as well as it does with it - even if I wished for more. But how much more are YOU willing to pay for this expensive manual reworking of often public domain titles?

As I have been reading more in the Patristics, I have been wondering if some of the translation work of public domain titles could be cloud-sourced to Logos users.  If public domain titles could receive computer-generated morph-tagging & glosses and then Logos users edit using a more sophisticated typo reporting...

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