Security and Privacy Concern about Logos4 Phonning Home

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Posts 5354
DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 17 2010 10:56 PM

Dave Hooton:

Andrew McKenzie:

they should just Zip it!

Dave Hooton:
Can we all now do likewise!

Dave, despite my confusion at your post, I left it alone because I had said all I wanted to say on the issue of MVP's responding to customers.  I was saddened that I even had to  contemplate responding the way I did, even as I think about it now

Your call to "zip it" was not offensive to me as an MVP but my remark was addressed to "all". The comments in this thread are a matter of record; they cannot be undone nor will they go unnoticed! I felt that further comments were likely to become personal and detract from the opinions already expressed, irrespective of whether I agree or disagree with them.

Thanks for clarifying Dave.

 

Posts 325
Rene Atchley | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 18 2010 1:45 AM

Solution to the problem...other pieces of software.

Posts 521
Russ White | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 18 2010 4:49 AM

Matthew C Jones:
The Logos4 software is not "broken". The creator of the program has spoken. I don't question creators when they tell me it does what they designed it to do. Logos is the closest thing to perfection in the history of Bible study software and it gets better with age.

"When I bought this car, the advertising stated that I would be able to listen to the radio while driving."
"You can, as long as it's a country station."
"That's broken."
"No, it's not, the car's creator has spoken, and that's the way it is. Since it was designed that way, it's not broken."
"I don't agree."
"Then buy someone else's car."
"You have me locked in because it's the only car that works on these roads. But that's not what I want anyway, I want the car to be better, to satisfy a larger range of people."
"The creator likes country music, and doesn't want anyone else to listen to anything else! If you want to listen to something else, then tape another radio to the dashboard. Besides, people who listen to country music would complain if they can't find a country station if he were to change it, and that would drive his support costs up."
"That's insane. It'll be ugly, and the steering wheel controls won't work with a radio taped to the dashboard."
"Sorry, the creator of the car has spoken."

Somewhere along the line this entire conversation has become surreal. The developer of the software doesn't determine what's "broken" and what's not. You wouldn't accept that from anyone else in your life --not your plumber telling you that leaking pipe that floods your kitchen is normal, not your electrician telling you that mild shock you receive when turning on the lights is designed to wake you up, etc.

The user determines what is broken or not. In fact, the attitude that the company determines what's "correct behavior" is what, precisely, makes a lot of us upset about this entire thing. It smacks of a company that really doesn't care about their customers, or "cares so much" they're going to tell us what's right and wrong.

I'll say this: I had planned on dumping about $3k into Logos product within the next 15 days. My plan was to give my seminary three or four copies of Logos Silver to use as they wanted to, either for professors, or to give to students through some means. That's gone.

My next step is to kill all my prepubs, sitting at around $1.5k right now, and then to start telling people not to buy Logos. Since I've sold at least three copies in the last 6 months, and was working on selling about three or four more, it's getting into the $10k range a year very quickly.

Oh, and that demo I had been lining up the 5k member church I belong to, and the three or four 5k member churches in the area, along with all those possible sales? I'm calling that off, too. I'm going to stop bugging my pastor about it, trying to convince them that we really need to get the logistics done. Instead, I'm going to tell him I won't work with a company this arrogant.

I will not work with a company that tells me they will only sell software that works completely when I put my data in their format in their software, that I cannot control what they do with that data, and that they will not be held responsible for the privacy or final resting place of that data, nor even what it's used for. Nor will I work with a company that says, "tough luck, the creator has spoken, so just zip it." I refuse to spend money with a company where the president looks down his nose at me, and tells me that my request is wrong because it will cost him money. Of course it will cost him money --it costs me money to buy his software. Bob: You've just lost $3k in direct sales, and an untold amount of indirect sales, because of the attitude I see on display here.

Now, do you really want me to get upset? Do you want me to start using facebook and blogs to bring this issue to people's attention?

"The creator has spoken." What an attitude.

Russ

 

Posts 2964
tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 18 2010 5:25 AM

Russ,

For the most part, I agree with you. As someone who is also passion about this issue, I added an entry out to uservoice.com. Bob at first close my suggestion by stating all you have to do is to change a couple of settings. A couple of us were upset with this, and Bob reopen my suggestion. Now it sits at #10 on uservoice. I do believe that Bob will change this is we keep this concern on the front burner. This does mean that we will receive some flack, but I am happy to receive this flack if the end result is a better program for all of to use.

I do agree with you that we also need to speak by using our wallets. I have canceled the prepubs that I had on order when they were about to be shipped. I have also told my colleges on my seminary campus of my concerns with this program as is, and far as I know no one has purchased L4.

Posts 521
Russ White | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 18 2010 5:51 AM

I've not yet gotten to the point of canceling prepubs, but I'm getting there. What I'll probably do is cancel them as they come up, in the hopes that Bob turns this entire situation around with a small and simple feature that lets you select which files to sync and which not to.

I'm trying to balance here between burning bridges with a company I think makes useful software and trying to get that same company to see that this lack of concern for user privacy is completely wrong in this day and age. That they don't want to be on the wrong side of user backlash when the pendulum starts to swing back to privacy in the coming years, as much as they might believe it won't.

:-)

Russ

Posts 8967
RIP
Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 18 2010 7:09 AM

Russ White:
"The creator has spoken." What an attitude.

You seem to be confused whose attitude that is. Let me own it once more.

I do not speak for Logos, Bob Pritchett or any of the other MVPs.. It is just my point of view and whether it is palatable to anyone or no one, it is just as valid of an individual opinion as yours, If you read all my posts on this issue you would notice my views have moved closer to your camp by JimT's and Andy Bell's able posts. But convincing me 100% still won't effect any change. Logos is "not my baby."  -- as Bob Pritchett put it in his book "Fire Someone Today!"  And if Bob does decide to deliver what you ask for, all the protest in the world couldn't stop him. It is "his baby", you see. (And as imperfect as a baby may behave, the last thing a parent wants is for somebody else to cast insults and threats towards their baby.) 

Russ White:
The user determines what is broken or not. In fact, the attitude that the company determines what's "correct behavior" is what, precisely, makes a lot of us upset about this entire thing.

Psalm 2:1-12:   (pick your version, pick your theology)

Russ White:
I had planned on dumping about $3k
Russ White:
My next step is to kill all
Russ White:
Oh, and that demo I had been lining up
 
Russ White:
I will not work
Russ White:
Now, do you really want me to get upset?

From my days in collective bargaining I can attest the "could-a, would-a, should-a" technique never succeeds. If you build some goodwill with the other party, they are more apt to turn a receptive ear when you present your list of demands concerns. For bargaining to be productive both sides need a commonality of interest. By attacking Logos ("crippled", "broken") or threatening them (see the post I am replying to) you are only self-inflicting wounds. That is if you share a common interest with Bob.

You don't need to convince me. I'm a nobody when it comes to power or influence. I'm so flawed I would grant your request just to move on. I say "The creator has spoken." because that is the way I have peace with reality I don't determine. Now if we appeal to the authority (Bob) we stand a better chance securing change.  Let's put away the axes. Your concerns deserve better bargaining than they are currently getting.

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 521
Russ White | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 18 2010 7:26 AM

From my days in collective bargaining I can attest the "could-a, would-a, should-a" technique never succeeds. If you build some goodwill with the other party, they are more apt to turn a receptive ear when you present your list of demands concerns. For bargaining to be productive both sides need a commonality of interest. By attacking Logos ("crippled", "broken") or threatening them (see the post I am replying to) you are only self-inflicting wounds. That is if you share a common interest with Bob. You don't need to convince me. I'm a nobody when it comes to power or influence. I'm so flawed I would grant your request just to move on. I say "The creator has spoken." because that is the way I have peace with reality I don't determine. Now if we appeal to the authority (Bob) we stand a better chance securing change.  Let's put away the axes. Your concerns deserve better bargaining than they are currently getting.

1. It is perfectly reasonable to attempt to reason from logic first, then pull business second. This idea that you should never stop spending money at a business because they won't respect your privacy, or because they don't provide what you want/need, because "spending money gives you more bargaining power," is nonsense.

2. A threat is saying you will do something. I'm not saying, I'm doing. I have just pulled the plug on spending $3k with Logos I had intended to spend. That's not a threat, that's done. I'm not threatening to pull the plug on a demo at my church --I'll just stop pushing for it, today and ongoing. Since no-one else seems interested in getting a demo together, that effectively shuts it down.

3. You have a star under your name, and you're the one telling everyone to just stop talking about it. That star, whether or not you like it, means you were chosen by Logos to speak for Logos, in some sense. You were chosen by Logos as the "first line of support" in these forums.

Russ

Posts 8644
TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 18 2010 7:51 AM

In so far as it applies to this thread in part please see Bob's post here:

http://community.logos.com/forums/p/23243/173181.aspx#173181

Hmm Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 

Posts 8967
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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 18 2010 8:18 AM

Russ White:
3. You have a star under your name, and you're the one telling everyone to just stop talking about it. That star, whether or not you like it, means you were chosen by Logos to speak for Logos, in some sense. You were chosen by Logos as the "first line of support" in these forums.

I said I would pass on addressing the issues raised because nothing new has been added to the debate and all issues have been addressed by the one who holds the legitimate authority to pass judgment on them. I never told anyone to quit talking.
(Andrew McKenzie said "zip it" and I think he was talking to me, not your side of the issue.)
(Dave Hooton suggested "all" zip it, and wisely refused to jump in the mud.)

Yes. My time would be better spent offering help to new posters.
(There are so many new Logos users since L4 was released. Cool )
Thanks for helping me re-focus. Wink

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Posts 37
Nina Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 18 2010 8:45 AM

Matthew C Jones:
    I'm glad to be FLYING HIGH with Logos4 but sad others are grounded.Sad
                     

I love my Logos Bible Study software, it is so nice to have the Bible and all the helps at my fingertips. My hubby Matthew is having way too much fun on here!Big Smile

Posts 8967
RIP
Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 18 2010 8:47 AM

Nina Jones:
I love my Logos Bible Study software, it is so nice to have the Bible and all the helps at my fingertips. My hubby Matthew is having way too much fun on here!Big Smile

Newbie !

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 232
AndyTheGreek | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 18 2010 9:43 AM

I just want to clarify my position, as my name recently was mentioned by Matthew:

I think Logos4's entire Internet strategy and its implementation of that strategy is flawed. Flawed. Not broken.

My viewpoint is based on these observations:

  • Logos/Bob thinks 'the cloud is the future'. I think this is an overstatement and I wouldn't base my current or future strategy on it. Use the cloud - maybe. But declare the cloud as 'the future' - no, that's too strong a statement. (And various posts by Bob did say that the cloud was the future).
  • To use the cloud safely (which Logos claims to do on http://www.logos.com/logos4/customize - "Safe and secure. You can have the peace of mind that all your documents—notes, clippings, and custom guides—are safely backed up on our servers.") My definition of Internet safety is that the data is stored encrypted using top strength industry standard encryption. The password for encryption/decryption is not stored anywhere other than in my head and should be as long as I want it to be. To be safe that means 20 characters or longer, IMHO. My understanding is that the data is is sent using the HTTPS protocol but is stored unencrypted. If that is so, then it cannot be described as 'safe'. I might as well send it to Logos in an envelope (which is all that HTTPS does, in effect) - Logos, hackers, Governments etc can easily read my Notes because they are stored unencrypted. I don't care whether anyone will actually try to read my stuff or not. I do care that, if they wanted to, they could. 
  • Logos4's 'all or nothing' approach to the use of the Internet is immature, naive and weak. There is no acceptable reason why it cannot provide Update Notifications but not synchronize. And it should offer options as to what is synchronized. I like, for instance, having my various Logos installations all open up to the last page I was reading - I find that useful. So I should be able to specify what gets synchronized.
  • The Resource download mechanism is too silent - Most, if not all, software that I know of provide a decent update progress window and a list of things it is/has/will process. Not providing it is just lazy IMHO. Even Amazon's MP3 downloader is more sophisticated. 
  • I agree that Logos has to keep its Software version and resource versions in synch. That still does not prevent them from offering the facility to reject the download of a resource we never/no longer want. As long as it's made clear that we cannot access that resource unless it is up to date then there is no problem. I am utterly amazed that Bob has stated, several times, that this facility will never be offered. Especially as Logos has a 'hide resource' option which does the very same thing, just in a different order.

As to whether or not Logos4 is broken - I think it is an overstatement to say Logos4 is broken. In view of the above points, I would describe Logos4's internet implementation as weak, poor and, maybe, broken. But not Logos4 as a whole. Thinking of the car radio illustration - I once had a car and the radio stopped working. Did I come home and say to my wife "the car's broken"? No. I said "the car radio's broken". The car was still usable... In like manner, Logos4 is still very usable with the Internet disabled. Just as Logos3 is very usable...

Finally, with regard to Russ's comment: "The user determines what is broken or not. In fact, the attitude that the company determines what's "correct behavior" is what, precisely, makes a lot of us upset about this entire thing." I work for a company producing bespoke software and in this scenario the customer's opinion of each and every feature is sacrosanct. After all, we are producing it to the customer's specification and if we fail to deliver to that specification the customer has every right to complain and even pull the plug on the whole project.

Logos4, however, is shrink wrapped software where, ultimately, Bob and his team make every decision about what features are implemented and how they are implemented. I've also been in this situation, writing shrink wrapped Photography software, and I know that it is almost impossible to please all of the people all of the time. Usually you aim to keep the majority happy. It's the best you can do. Therefore, refusal to change a feature or to implement a feature is not in itself evidence that you do not care - it can be just evidence of pragmatism.

To be fair to Logos, they are unusually active in these forums - I don't recall Bill Gates or any senior decision maker at Microsoft responding to user's post in their support forums, but Bob regularly posts. I don't always agree with what he says but I respect him for saying it.

I am hopeful that Logos4 will improve its Internet approach. Until they, at the very least, store my data using the strongest encryption, I will not use Notes or Prayer lists. I agree that, in this area, Logos4 is flawed. Very flawed. But I wouldn't go so far as to call it, that is Logos4, broken.

Thankfully, the quality of the resources and information I get from them is utterly unaffected by these issues. I keep reminding myself of that. I bought Logos to enrich my life and my faith. It amply delivers in these areas.

Posts 13399
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 18 2010 10:29 AM

I agree with your three points regarding features, even though I have no personal need to see two of them implemented:

  1. Our user-data should be (optionally) encrypted on Logos servers, with the passkey known only to us.
  2. Synchronising should be optional, without turning the rest of the internet off.
  3. We should (optionally) be told what resources are being updated, before agreeing to the update.

I agree because (1) and (2) are extremely important to a small number of users, which probably makes them an low-medium priority. (3) seems to be fairly important to a reasonable number of users, which probably makes it medium priority. Other features such as printing and PBBs are obviously higher priorities, but I still expect these three to be implemented within a year.

 

Posts 8967
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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 18 2010 10:52 AM

Andy Bell:
I just want to clarify my position, as my name recently was mentioned by Matthew:

Once again, you very ably state your views. (I still don't agree with all of them. Stick out tongue ) Thanks.

Andy Bell:
I work for a company producing bespoke software and in this scenario the customer's opinion of each and every feature is sacrosanct. After all, we are producing it to the customer's specification and if we fail to deliver to that specification the customer has every right to complain and even pull the plug on the whole project.

When I customized my Les Paul guitar I had boutique pickups made to my specs. They are double wound, reverse wound coils, potted in Beeswax and housed in 24kt Gold. I wired them with selector switches for in-phase/out-of-phase and 19 other possible combinations. I even chose special pots and added a treble booster. Needless to say, the pups cost me more than the Gold plating. If they had fallen short of my specs I would have reason to complain. I can not reasonably expect off-the-shelf pickups to give me that Brian May sound.

Andy Bell:
Logos4, however, is shrink wrapped software where, ultimately, Bob and his team make every decision about what features are implemented and how they are implemented.

And I think they do a wonderful job of it. Given enough time I suspect even the issues raised in this thread will be satisfied to most users' requirements. I am willing to work within the current capabilities of the program. I am not against choices. I welcome as many options as Bob wants to add. I am already pleased as punch with the current state of affairs.

 

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Posts 18899
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 18 2010 11:55 AM

Matthew C Jones:

Nina Jones:
I love my Logos Bible Study software, it is so nice to have the Bible and all the helps at my fingertips. My hubby Matthew is having way too much fun on here!Big Smile

Newbie !

Neat to have our first (that I know of) husband/wife who are both on the forums. Welcome, Nina!

Posts 8967
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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 18 2010 1:03 PM

Rosie Perera:
Neat to have our first (that I know of) husband/wife who are both on the forums.

A word of explanation:  Nina has her own account because I bought her a Logos base package that better suited her needs. It seems I can disappear into a hardware store and not emerge until they lock up for the night. (Hence, Portfolio et al)  Nina goes in single-mindedly and returns 4 minutes later with only the item she went in for. Her Bible study is done the same way. I am trying to show her how Logos supercharges her study time. I've made great progress just to move her into computer-based anything.

There are also many ancillary benefits like not having to worry about changes to my settings, "accidental" postings done in my name Surprise & the best benefit; keeping those Order histories and Pre-Pubs private. (Now that is data I jealously guard!)

I highly recommend everybody grab an extra base package for their spouse while the current discounts are on!

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 5354
DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 18 2010 2:39 PM

Matthew C Jones:
(Andrew McKenzie said "zip it" and I think he was talking to me, not your side of the issue.)

I was speaking not just to you Matthew but any MVP who can't put their viewpoint across in the manner of point #3 on the guidelines and stop at that point.  I am greatly concerned at seeing MVP's who continue past their personal viewpoint and start to ridicule, poke fun at, try to put holes in or generally destroy another's user's view point on an issue. These are real people we are dealing with, fellow brothers and sisters in Christ and this is a public forum on the internet.

Like it or not MVP's and will be seen by forum users as representatives of Logos Bible Software.  Take a look at how Logos employees respond in these forums.  User's expect MVP's will respond with the same diploma and grace.  Some of the ways in which I see MVP's respond is an absolute disgrace not only as people who represent Logos but in the way in which they talk to fellow brothers and sisters in Chirst. 

To you personally Matthew  all I want to say is I would love to see more of what got you to being asked to be an MVP in the first place rather than you questioning users about the validity of their viewpoints on issues you dont agree with. I know that can be hard, I'm still learning when to bite, but my poor old tongue has an increasing number of bite marks. Thankfully I'll get a new one someday. By the time I'm finished with this one, not much of it will be left.

And my comments should extended not only to MVP's but all users for that matter. 

Time for me to start biting again and its up to everyone else to seek in their own hearts, before God how they are going to move on from this point and how they are going to respond in the future on these forums on issues that clearly divided our opinions.

Posts 29591
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 18 2010 3:59 PM

Andrew McKenzie:
And my comments should extended not only to MVP's but all users for that matter. 

Andrew, the question in my mind that you have not addressed is the appropriate response to incorrect "information." My concern is that a number of forum users will not recognize it as the personal opinion of the poster rather than a fact about Logos. To me this is similar to providing accurate information about Logos features and their use. What response do you see as appropriate?

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 18 2010 5:11 PM

 

Andrew McKenzie:
I would love to see more of what got you to being asked to be an MVP in the first place

I often wonder what in the world prompted Logos to invite me as an MVP. Bob must have prayed for patience with annoying people and God answered by leaving me in a basket on Bob's porch. You can review my post history from the beginning of the forums , through the release of Logos4, and the eventual creation of the MVP panel. Aside from the occassional recommendations to resources I have done nothing different from being my usual, annoying self. Check out these examples:
http://community.logos.com/forums/p/297/2686.aspx#2686
http://community.logos.com/forums/p/42/3171.aspx#3171
http://community.logos.com/forums/p/341/3272.aspx#3272
http://community.logos.com/forums/p/276/4078.aspx#4078
http://community.logos.com/forums/p/435/4428.aspx#4428
http://community.logos.com/forums/p/472/4539.aspx#4539
http://community.logos.com/forums/p/568/5580.aspx#5580
http://community.logos.com/forums/p/3598/28604.aspx#28604

I agree. All the MVPs (actually, all the forum regulars) should conduct themselves in a manner worthy of the high calling of Bible devotees and the Logos family. Our dedication is probably why we get so serious about our debates sometimes. There is no way a casual reader could think all the MVPs represent an official Logos party line when the MVPs debate with each other over differences. I'm not justifying bad behavior here. I willingly serve at Logos' pleasure & long-suffering. I hope they get more pleasure than pain from my posts, because I really LIKE the forums.

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 37
Nina Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 18 2010 5:17 PM

Rosie Perera:
Neat to have our first (that I know of) husband/wife who are both on the forums. Welcome, Nina!

Thank you Rosie!  My husband enjoys reading many of the forum posts to me.  I feel like I already know many of the regular posters on here!

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