Rick Ausdahl:I don't agree however that there is such a thing as "accidental" theft. All the definitions () I find regarding stealing/theft, make it clear the taking was done knowingly and with clear purpose
OSX & iOS | Logs | Install
JT (alabama24): Gary Osborne:Is it a violation of the letter of the law? Sure. But is it really prudent? I can't see how it would be. That's because it wasn't YOUR work which was stolen!
Gary Osborne:Is it a violation of the letter of the law? Sure. But is it really prudent? I can't see how it would be.
How do you know it hasn't happened to me?
I'll just say this and let it go: If it were my work in question, and one sentence was lifted like the origina one cited by the thread creator, I would NOT be screaming, "Plagarism!" and looking to sue, get a book taken out of circulatio, or even get a footnote added in future printings. That much I can assure you. But to each his own.
I didn’t say I would be screaming “plagiarism” or threatening to sue... I would not. Nevertheless we should be called to a higher standard in our ethics.
Gary Osborne: JT (alabama24): Gary Osborne:Is it a violation of the letter of the law? Sure. But is it really prudent? I can't see how it would be. That's because it wasn't YOUR work which was stolen! How do you know it hasn't happened to me? I'll just say this and let it go: If it were my work in question, and one sentence was lifted like the origina one cited by the thread creator, I would NOT be screaming, "Plagarism!" and looking to sue, get a book taken out of circulatio, or even get a footnote added in future printings. That much I can assure you. But to each his own.
L2 lvl4, L3 Scholars, L4 Scholars, L5 Platinum, L6 Collectors. L7 Baptist Portfolio. L8 Baptist Platinum.
As I said, to each his own. I'm simply offering my own opinion, which is that in the case you cited it's overkill to call out plagiarism. Again, just my opinion. But darned if I don't see similar type examples all the time in resources.
Like R.T. Kendall’s Understanding Theology Vol. 3 — To mention something specific, his article on marriage. He quotes extensively and verbatim parts of the New Bible Dictionary by J.D. Douglas and he doesn’t give credit. Not a single footnote! Yet he presents it as if it were his own. He probably does that in all his 3 volumes of Understanding Theology. Sad, indeed!
I found out about it because I did a paper on marriage and quoted and credited the dictionary and then saw what Kendall had to say and it was exactly the same, but he didn’t credit the dictionary. Sad and dishonest but oh well!
DAL
I do not think it that amazing that two scholars independently defining a term such as “adoption” should both have one sentence that similar. Take a group of 10 scholars and ask them to define a common term, and you could probably accuse at least five of them of plagiarism on one sentence or the other. I think it is a bit of a stretch here.
"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley
Heard back from them today. In my initial email I asked to be put in contact with the apropriate person that would determine whether or not a thing is plagiarism. God a reply from the editorial director. She said she would be the one to look into such things, and she'd be happy to evaluate it. So I sent the quotes, book titles, and page numbers to her.
Michael Childs: I do not think it that amazing that two scholars independently defining a term such as “adoption” should both have one sentence that similar. Take a group of 10 scholars and ask them to define a common term, and you could probably accuse at least five of them of plagiarism on one sentence or the other. I think it is a bit of a stretch here.
abondservant: Denise: Hmmm. I hope I don’t offend, but the example, I haven’t seen that unusual. I’ve seen pretty decent chunks of word-for-word, almost always between a commentary and monograph (different authors). I guess I’m a little comfortable with a little copying (not me of course)? No offense taken. It just surprised me. If I did that in a seminary paper I could be expelled at the discretion of the Dean. Post-graduation should plagiarism be discovered a students degree(s) can be revoked (for something turned into the school, not for something submitted for publication) pending re-attempting the class.Here is my schools statement on Plagiarism (I left off the punishment though as it is already a lengthy quote). Policy on Plagiarism Students in attendance at (school name) are expected to maintain high standards of academic integrity appropriate to a Christian lifestyle. Plagiarism and cheating in any form will not be tolerated. Integrity requires that the Christian student conduct him or herself according to the highest academic standards. Plagiarism is a very serious offense because it is stealing. Not only does plagiarism steal from the original author, it also takes away from the student the opportunity to learn and grow in the way the assignment was intended to provide. What is plagiarism? Joseph Ribald defines plagiarism in this way: “Derived from the Latin word plagiaries (‘kidnapper’), plagiarism refers to a form of cheating that has been defined as ‘the false assumption of authorship: the wrongful act of taking the product of another person’s mind, and presenting it as one’s own’ ” (MLA Handbook, 6th ed. [New York: Modern Language Association, 2003], 66, quoting Alexander Lindey, Plagiarism and Originality [New York: Harper, 1952], 2). Plagiarism can be committed in a number of ways, four of which are highlighted here: Quoting one or more sentences verbatim without proper citation. This is the most obvious form of plagiarism. In addition, using unattributed direct quotations is a violation of US copyright law. Electronically cutting and pasting is easy to do, so it presents a definite temptation-especially if a deadline for an assignment is looming. Presenting the thoughts or ideas of another without proper attribution. Many students fail to realize that this practice is also plagiarism even if a student writes the summary himself. If one paraphrases the work of another, then he must give a proper citation. Borrowing without proper citation such things as an outline, an idea, or an approach to dealing with a problem that is unique to an author. This type of plagiarism often results from poor note taking on the part of the student. Using improper methods of citation. The student is responsible for learning the appropriate rules for citing sources and for following those rules throughout the paper. Ignorance of the rules of citation is not an excuse. For other definitions of plagiarism and ways to avoid it see Robert A. Harris, The Plagiarism Handbook: Strategies for Preventing, Detecting, and Dealing with Plagiarism (Los Angeles, CA: Pyrczak Publishing, 2001.) If there is a question as to whether a citation is necessary at a particular point, it is a good rule of thumb to include it. Very few papers are penalized for over-citing! In addition, help is available from professors, the Writing Center, and the Library regarding how to work with sources.
Denise: Hmmm. I hope I don’t offend, but the example, I haven’t seen that unusual. I’ve seen pretty decent chunks of word-for-word, almost always between a commentary and monograph (different authors). I guess I’m a little comfortable with a little copying (not me of course)?
Hmmm. I hope I don’t offend, but the example, I haven’t seen that unusual. I’ve seen pretty decent chunks of word-for-word, almost always between a commentary and monograph (different authors). I guess I’m a little comfortable with a little copying (not me of course)?
Policy on Plagiarism Students in attendance at (school name) are expected to maintain high standards of academic integrity appropriate to a Christian lifestyle. Plagiarism and cheating in any form will not be tolerated. Integrity requires that the Christian student conduct him or herself according to the highest academic standards. Plagiarism is a very serious offense because it is stealing. Not only does plagiarism steal from the original author, it also takes away from the student the opportunity to learn and grow in the way the assignment was intended to provide. What is plagiarism? Joseph Ribald defines plagiarism in this way: “Derived from the Latin word plagiaries (‘kidnapper’), plagiarism refers to a form of cheating that has been defined as ‘the false assumption of authorship: the wrongful act of taking the product of another person’s mind, and presenting it as one’s own’ ” (MLA Handbook, 6th ed. [New York: Modern Language Association, 2003], 66, quoting Alexander Lindey, Plagiarism and Originality [New York: Harper, 1952], 2). Plagiarism can be committed in a number of ways, four of which are highlighted here: Quoting one or more sentences verbatim without proper citation. This is the most obvious form of plagiarism. In addition, using unattributed direct quotations is a violation of US copyright law. Electronically cutting and pasting is easy to do, so it presents a definite temptation-especially if a deadline for an assignment is looming. Presenting the thoughts or ideas of another without proper attribution. Many students fail to realize that this practice is also plagiarism even if a student writes the summary himself. If one paraphrases the work of another, then he must give a proper citation. Borrowing without proper citation such things as an outline, an idea, or an approach to dealing with a problem that is unique to an author. This type of plagiarism often results from poor note taking on the part of the student. Using improper methods of citation. The student is responsible for learning the appropriate rules for citing sources and for following those rules throughout the paper. Ignorance of the rules of citation is not an excuse. For other definitions of plagiarism and ways to avoid it see Robert A. Harris, The Plagiarism Handbook: Strategies for Preventing, Detecting, and Dealing with Plagiarism (Los Angeles, CA: Pyrczak Publishing, 2001.) If there is a question as to whether a citation is necessary at a particular point, it is a good rule of thumb to include it. Very few papers are penalized for over-citing! In addition, help is available from professors, the Writing Center, and the Library regarding how to work with sources.
Policy on Plagiarism Students in attendance at (school name) are expected to maintain high standards of academic integrity appropriate to a Christian lifestyle. Plagiarism and cheating in any form will not be tolerated.
Integrity requires that the Christian student conduct him or herself according to the highest academic standards. Plagiarism is a very serious offense because it is stealing. Not only does plagiarism steal from the original author, it also takes away from the student the opportunity to learn and grow in the way the assignment was intended to provide.
What is plagiarism? Joseph Ribald defines plagiarism in this way: “Derived from the Latin word plagiaries (‘kidnapper’), plagiarism refers to a form of cheating that has been defined as ‘the false assumption of authorship: the wrongful act of taking the product of another person’s mind, and presenting it as one’s own’ ” (MLA Handbook, 6th ed. [New York: Modern Language Association, 2003], 66, quoting Alexander Lindey, Plagiarism and Originality [New York: Harper, 1952], 2). Plagiarism can be committed in a number of ways, four of which are highlighted here:
For other definitions of plagiarism and ways to avoid it see Robert A. Harris, The Plagiarism Handbook: Strategies for Preventing, Detecting, and Dealing with Plagiarism (Los Angeles, CA: Pyrczak Publishing, 2001.) If there is a question as to whether a citation is necessary at a particular point, it is a good rule of thumb to include it. Very few papers are penalized for over-citing! In addition, help is available from professors, the Writing Center, and the Library regarding how to work with sources.
I have to agree. If I am writing a paper for one of my college classes and I am even closely taking words, or for that matter, ideas FROM the words, of another, even if I do "scramble them up" a bit, I still put my source. I'd rather OVER source credit than under source credit any day of the week. It's always a better idea to be safe than sorry. I've yet to have a professor complain that I over-cite!
Cynthia
Romans 8:28-38
DAL: Like R.T. Kendall’s Understanding Theology Vol. 3 — To mention something specific, his article on marriage. He quotes extensively and verbatim parts of the New Bible Dictionary by J.D. Douglas and he doesn’t give credit. Not a single footnote! Yet he presents it as if it were his own. He probably does that in all his 3 volumes of Understanding Theology. Sad, indeed! I found out about it because I did a paper on marriage and quoted and credited the dictionary and then saw what Kendall had to say and it was exactly the same, but he didn’t credit the dictionary. Sad and dishonest but oh well! DAL
If I remember correctly, Kendall's work was presented first as a sermon-lecture to his church, which then became the book. In a church setting, not citing a source might be OK, but when you then monetize it into a book in the public domain, it becomes plagiarism.
Ted Weis: DAL: Like R.T. Kendall’s Understanding Theology Vol. 3 — To mention something specific, his article on marriage. He quotes extensively and verbatim parts of the New Bible Dictionary by J.D. Douglas and he doesn’t give credit. Not a single footnote! Yet he presents it as if it were his own. He probably does that in all his 3 volumes of Understanding Theology. Sad, indeed! I found out about it because I did a paper on marriage and quoted and credited the dictionary and then saw what Kendall had to say and it was exactly the same, but he didn’t credit the dictionary. Sad and dishonest but oh well! DAL If I remember correctly, Kendall's work was presented first as a sermon-lecture to his church, which then became the book. In a church setting, not citing a source might be OK, but when you then monetize it into a book in the public domain, it becomes plagiarism.
I think that’s what happened because they sure read like sermons! Nice work and very practical, but he could’ve given credit; especially, like you said, he’s making money off of the information.
I wonder how many of Faithlife's sermon collections would fare, since they were originally preached in a church setting?
Cynthia in Florida: I have to agree. If I am writing a paper for one of my college classes and I am even closely taking words, or for that matter, ideas FROM the words, of another, even if I do "scramble them up" a bit, I still put my source. I'd rather OVER source credit than under source credit any day of the week. It's always a better idea to be safe than sorry. I've yet to have a professor complain that I over-cite!
I normally would agree with you about the tendency to "over cite" - however that becomes problematic when the college includes the citation element into the word count. Just as well that it has changed the citation standard to one that involves less 'words' in the text than its previous standard. (i.e. a change to APA from Chicago)
Personally I "cannot" see the academic value in penalising any citation usage in whatever form. Although I can see the need to include any foot-noting and end-noting where the content is actually adding to the ideas expressed in the paper submitted.
Shalom
Bobby Terhune: I wonder how many of Faithlife's sermon collections would fare, since they were originally preached in a church setting?
Tim Keller would fare very well, since he frequently cites commentary and monograph sources in his sermons. He manages to do it in a way that does not sound stodgy.
John MacArthur would fare well too, as he often goes so far as to cite individual lexica (this is overkill IMHO).
Kevin A Lewis: Cynthia in Florida: I have to agree. If I am writing a paper for one of my college classes and I am even closely taking words, or for that matter, ideas FROM the words, of another, even if I do "scramble them up" a bit, I still put my source. I'd rather OVER source credit than under source credit any day of the week. It's always a better idea to be safe than sorry. I've yet to have a professor complain that I over-cite! I normally would agree with you about the tendency to "over cite" - however that becomes problematic when the college includes the citation element into the word count. Just as well that it has changed the citation standard to one that involves less 'words' in the text than its previous standard. (i.e. a change to APA from Chicago) Personally I "cannot" see the academic value in penalising any citation usage in whatever form. Although I can see the need to include any foot-noting and end-noting where the content is actually adding to the ideas expressed in the paper submitted. Shalom
I see the issue. My college does not count citations in word count. However, if they did, I would still choose to over-cite. Less word count in my paper is better than being accused of plagiarism and receiving an automatic F. Further, my school has a one strike and you’re out rule on flagrant plagiarism, so I’d rather get a lower grade over word count than the later.
Plagiarism highlights also several problems in biblical scholarship:
This is the sort of environment that makes plagiarism a glaring temptation.
Coming from a different educational system, I was shocked to see how much biblical education was about collecting information from others ("research") which must then be organised and requires profuse citation. Back home, we were taught in high school modes of reasoning that approximate old Greek models of logic and rhetoric. The emphasis was not on rote memorisation of models or types of arguments, but on learning to think and articulate one own's response. This can become a problem if we think we can come up with well articulated answers that are not based on knowledge. So there is need for research but learning how to think and reflect is essential.
In the pulpit, I see the same problem: many preachers/teachers cannot think for themselves. I am astonished how many describe as their own thinking what is nothing more than what everybody else is saying in popular or traditional terms, down to the very same expressions and exegetical myths. As a result, instead of constant learning and promotion of the same in the Church life, much is a rehash and again there is excessive dependence on sources (e.g., dependence on sermons by big shots to give ideas on how to preach a passage and figure out how it applies). Indeed, I would not be surprised if pulpit "plagiarism" was rampant (presenting as one own's insights what is essential cut and paste from others).
Lastly, one must not forget that a scholar is a "high-ranked" official in the world of spiritual education often regarded with much respect in their church circles and contributing in significant ways to shaping the thinking of pastors and lay people through publications. The fact that plagiarism is not rare (nor is it in seminaries and universities where "Christian" students prepare to become pastors, theologians, or scholars) tells also something about the ethical climate.
I know this is a bit off-track, but I do think that plagiarism is a reflection of deeper problems which we must all take to heart. One way to bring it back to Logos is to reflect on our own use of sources and personal ethics.
Cynthia in Florida: Kevin A Lewis: Cynthia in Florida: I have to agree. If I am writing a paper for one of my college classes and I am even closely taking words, or for that matter, ideas FROM the words, of another, even if I do "scramble them up" a bit, I still put my source. I'd rather OVER source credit than under source credit any day of the week. It's always a better idea to be safe than sorry. I've yet to have a professor complain that I over-cite! I normally would agree with you about the tendency to "over cite" - however that becomes problematic when the college includes the citation element into the word count. Just as well that it has changed the citation standard to one that involves less 'words' in the text than its previous standard. (i.e. a change to APA from Chicago) Personally I "cannot" see the academic value in penalising any citation usage in whatever form. Although I can see the need to include any foot-noting and end-noting where the content is actually adding to the ideas expressed in the paper submitted. Shalom I see the issue. My college does not count citations in word count. However, if they did, I would still choose to over-cite. Less word count in my paper is better than being accused of plagiarism and receiving an automatic F. Further, my school has a one strike and you’re out rule on flagrant plagiarism, so I’d rather get a lower grade over word count than the later.
Francis:I do think that plagiarism is a reflection of deeper problems which we must all take to heart. One way to bring it back to Logos is to reflect on our own use of sources and personal ethics.
abondservant: My college and seminary were the same way. They didn't count citations in word count, and at my undergrad program 1 strike and your out. At the seminary its apparently at the discretion of the professor. He/she has the ability to fail you for the assignment, fail you for the class, or expel you from the school without any further discussion with the deans.
My college and seminary were the same way. They didn't count citations in word count, and at my undergrad program 1 strike and your out. At the seminary its apparently at the discretion of the professor. He/she has the ability to fail you for the assignment, fail you for the class, or expel you from the school without any further discussion with the deans.
Wow! Our 1-strike was a guy and a gal unchaperoned. Missing citations was a specific paper issue, unless egregious ... then off to the dean's office. For the professors, old missing citations was water under the bridge ... but a wrong Biblical interpretation, and they were nailed from the denomination (plus college, of course). I remember 2 that got nailed.