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Posts 604
John Fugh, Jr. | Forum Activity | Posted: Thu, Feb 22 2018 6:40 AM

Faithlife has been moving towards the subscription model and it has been no secret.  But there's an underlying problem with the way it is being rolled out that makes me apprehensive to trusting your future models.  Let me explain what I mean.

Logos Now rolls out with a number of features and a subscription cost.  There are features that I've slowly been using and have relied upon.  Like the sermon editor.  Honestly, I wasn't too excited about it when it was released, but I gave it a try over the last couple months and started using it more.  If I understand the new connect subscription, it's going to cost me $100 more annually to use this.  So, I'm going to stop using it even though I still have an active subscription to Logos Now until November.

Here's the problem: Why would I continue to get comfortable with something that I don't intend to pay double for in the future?  Will it be a part of Logos 8?  Will it be a feature something I could be a perpetual license to in the future?  I don't know.  At this point, I can't spend any more time getting more comfortable with this feature (or other features that will not be included in the new connect subscription model).  I don't want to get hooked.

We also started using Proclaim in the last couple months.  We have paid for the on-air license and a couple additional graphics packs along with it.  I've been called, texted, and emailed from sales rep to move over to an annual subscription.  I almost did.  I am glad I didn't.  I look at the way Logos Now features are going to cost me double to keep the same features, and I wonder for the first time if proclaim will do this in the future.  Will I get hooked using some feature -- like the digital signage or something else -- and find out in a year that if I want to keep this, I'll have to pay double or triple?  

Thankfully, it's only been a few months and we can easily go back to propresenter and bright sign for presentation and digital signs.  

I just wanted to share my apprehensions and what it tells me about future subscription roll outs.  

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PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 22 2018 7:13 AM

John Fugh, Jr.:
Will it be a part of Logos 8?  Will it be a feature something I could be a perpetual license to in the future?  I don't know.

Phil shared that "There may end up being a few small things that just don't make sense outside of a subscription, but for the most part just about everything should be available as a perpetual license in Logos 8."

John Fugh, Jr.:
There are features that I've slowly been using and have relied upon.  Like the sermon editor.

Sermon Editor is part of the L7 full feature set, so you could get a perpetual license for it once your subscription runs out in November.

See the feature set comparison for more details.

Posts 604
John Fugh, Jr. | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 22 2018 7:22 AM

So, since I own the L7 Feature set, I will not lose sermon editor? 

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 22 2018 7:28 AM

John Fugh, Jr.:

So, since I own the L7 Feature set, I will not lose sermon editor? 

Correct.

There are, however, one / two features that required a Logos Now subscription - being able to upload your own media into the Media Tool and use that in the Sermon Editor - that you probably would lose (that's speculation on my part!)

EDIT: Reflecting on this a bit further - there have been a number of enhancements to the Sermon Editor post its initial release that were only made available to Logos Now subscribers. Presumably you would lose these if you cancelled your subscription. But again this is speculation on my part!

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PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 22 2018 7:29 AM

John Fugh, Jr.:

So, since I own the L7 Feature set, I will not lose sermon editor? 

Correct. (Sermon Editor is not included in the L7 Starter Feature Set, but is included in the L7 Full Feature Set or higher.)

Provided that you own the L7 Full Feature Set, the only LN features you would lose when your LN subscription ends are the L8 early release features, along with a few subscription-only features such as Lemma in passage.

Posts 1097
Sean | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 22 2018 7:34 AM

John Fugh, Jr.:
We also started using Proclaim in the last couple months.  We have paid for the on-air license and a couple additional graphics packs along with it.  I've been called, texted, and emailed from sales rep to move over to an annual subscription.  I almost did.  I am glad I didn't.  I look at the way Logos Now features are going to cost me double to keep the same features, and I wonder for the first time if proclaim will do this in the future.  Will I get hooked using some feature -- like the digital signage or something else -- and find out in a year that if I want to keep this, I'll have to pay double or triple?  

Getting back to your main question: yes, today FaithLife taught us they could very well double or triple future prices of anything.

Posts 1010
EastTN | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 22 2018 7:43 AM

Sean:

Getting back to your main question: yes, today FaithLife taught us they could very well double or triple future prices of anything.

Well, that's the essential weakness of a subscription-based model, isn't it?  That's why I still have a strong preference for an ownership-based approach.

Posts 1783
Tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 22 2018 7:52 AM

Sean:
Getting back to your main question: yes, today FaithLife taught us they could very well double or triple future prices of anything.

This has been the case for years. Sad

www.hombrereformado.org  Solo a Dios la Gloria   Apoyo

Posts 93
Robert C. Beckman Jr. | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 22 2018 3:00 PM

1. Responding

1.1 At first I did not know which thread to jump in. It seems that virtually everyone who has a Logos Now subscription has been alienated. Hopefully Logos (The company and program I and most of us signed up with) is looking and listening.

1.2 My wife and I talked in the car this afternoon. Last after I got the Email my first words were "I'm going to a different program." Then of course I looked at my sunk costs....

2. Logos Now...What is their issue.

2.1. Many of us us use now, or have at some time used SaS options. In some verticals they are necessary. Many use Office 365. It costs me 11.00 bucks a month and seems worth it. At $100.00 a year Logos now was pretty much in the ball-park for a SaS product. 

2.2 The logic of SaS all the features of the product...I chose Logos Now as the best, most cost-efficient way to get all Logos 7 features. 

2.3 If Logos/Faithlife Is having trouble making money on this model it may have been helpful if there had been more transparency. They don't have to throw open the books to their users but it certainly helps to know if their revenue model is not working. 

2.4 My guess is that things will get even worse because I can't think of any reason (Is this an intelligence test?) why someone would spend twice as much for the same features if there was another way to get the product. Many will pay once for the full feature set and abandon the SaS model, in which case the whole thing will go into a death spiral.

3. Who uses Logos...really

3.1 Virtually all uses of the product are ministry professionals of one stripe or another. (However you want to define it). Most are not rolling in cash and many of us have sacrificed and used payment plans to have the best professional tool for our task of preaching the gospel. 

3.2 Bible software is a vertical market...I understand that FaitLife has diversified into other media. I know that they see this as a strength but for their vertical it really isn't. I want great Bible software. Many of the peripherals in the FaithLife connect has zero appeal to me. 

3.3 Just a little time in the forums seems to make it clear. We are trying to both support FaithLife and be good stewards. We are a little tired of getting whipsawed from one marketing concept to the next. 

4. FaithLife...Logos: What business is the company in?

4.1 Software? Publisher of Licensed content? Publisher of new content? Media? Presentations? Church Management?

4.2 I sometimes feel as if those who signed up with a great software company are now the tail wagging the dog of other media. FaithLife TV is of no interest to me for exegetical work. Many of us already have excellent media programs which our volunteers know and love. Most of them have never heard of Logos/FaithLife. See number 3.2 above. 

In closing...

Like many of you I am in a loving marriage with a woman that thinks, at least on this issue, I have lost my mind. Logos 3, 4, 5, 6, 7(now). Every evolution of this program has me muttering, rolling my eyes and turning red. I have invested at least thrice in new hardware to run the program and we still have random, inexplicable behaviors. And now as most of us anticipate Logos 8 (I would have worn my Logos 4 t-shirt the day I install it) we have a pricing model change thrown into the gap. Logos...I'm a grand and a half into this program. I'd like to stay. Treat me like a loyal customer.

Posts 3937
abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 22 2018 7:01 PM

Robert C. Beckman Jr.:

Like many of you I am in a loving marriage with a woman that thinks, at least on this issue, I have lost my mind. Logos 3, 4, 5, 6, 7(now). Every evolution of this program has me muttering, rolling my eyes and turning red. I have invested at least thrice in new hardware to run the program and we still have random, inexplicable behaviors. And now as most of us anticipate Logos 8 (I would have worn my Logos 4 t-shirt the day I install it) we have a pricing model change thrown into the gap. Logos...I'm a grand and a half into this program. I'd like to stay. Treat me like a loyal customer.



1500 - be glad you haven't spent 5 figures, with an additional 5 figures on payment plans. Those handcuffs chafe.

L2 lvl4, L3 Scholars, L4 Scholars, L5 Platinum,  L6 Collectors. L7 Baptist Portfolio. L8 Baptist Platinum.

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PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 22 2018 7:13 PM

abondservant:
1500 - be glad you haven't spent 5 figures, with an additional 5 figures on payment plans. Those handcuffs chafe.

That is true! Yet a $1,500 spender can be as loyal as a $15,000+ spender.

Posts 3937
abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 22 2018 7:16 PM

PetahChristian:

abondservant:
1500 - be glad you haven't spent 5 figures, with an additional 5 figures on payment plans. Those handcuffs chafe.

That is true! Yet a $1,500 spender can be as loyal as a $15,000+ spender.



I don't feel loyal tonight. He may be more loyal than me right now. Someone who describes them-self as being in handcuffs isn't feeling very loyal I wouldn't expect :P

If Bob wanted to buy me out, I'd let him at this point. I'd feel better about his 20$ a month gimick of the year also at that point.

L2 lvl4, L3 Scholars, L4 Scholars, L5 Platinum,  L6 Collectors. L7 Baptist Portfolio. L8 Baptist Platinum.

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PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 22 2018 7:28 PM

abondservant:
I don't feel loyal tonight. He may be more loyal than me right now. Someone who describes them-self as being in handcuffs isn't feeling very loyal I wouldn't expect :P

What made the loyalty disappear? The FL Connect announcement, or regret over the amount spent?

Posts 3937
abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 22 2018 7:40 PM

PetahChristian:

abondservant:
I don't feel loyal tonight. He may be more loyal than me right now. Someone who describes them-self as being in handcuffs isn't feeling very loyal I wouldn't expect :P

What made the loyalty disappear? The FL Connect announcement, or regret over the amount spent?

are things ever so cut and dried?

I don't regret spending the money on tools. I regret spending the money on tools with a company that no longer seems to have the customers best interest at heart. That sentiment is one that I argued vehemently against. I was one of the biggest chearleaders for logos when 6 came out. I helped sell about 40 base packages. I forget the exact number. But it was a lot. My doubts began as a spark upon which fuel was poored as agreements were changed on their end after the fact. Then every single person I'd ever talked to - except bob - at Logos/faithlife/whatever was fired. People I'd come to consider friends. This was fuel for the fire. This latest is just another in a string of things that goes back several years. *Shrug*. It is what it is.

Alot of this could have been prevented. I bet he wouldn't have had nearly the pushback if he had doubled the production time on Now features, even tripled the production time. Or even released one polished feature every six months. Forcing people to pay rent on books they already own a license to is a slap in the face.

Coulda woulda shoulda I guess. I have a free student edition of bibleworks. I wonder if and how much its improved...

L2 lvl4, L3 Scholars, L4 Scholars, L5 Platinum,  L6 Collectors. L7 Baptist Portfolio. L8 Baptist Platinum.

Posts 313
Thinking | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 4:38 AM

Robert, Great post. Nicely said.

Posts 232
Anthony Dowden | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 4:45 AM

I've only been with Logos for two years and have spent $4,994 dollars so far.

like many others I am not interested in the TV or even the courses really. I just want good Bible software and resources.

It seems to me that I am going to loose a lot of the features because I cannot justify paying double the amount I am paying for Now at the moment.

I've had an email from Logos that is not particularly helpful either, I'm still totally unclear about what I will have if I don't pay double. It seems to me that they are feeling their way around them see how far they can push us.

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 24 2018 3:02 PM

Anthony Dowden:
I'm still totally unclear about what I will have if I don't pay double.

You have to subscribe to FLC Essentials if you want to retain the features of Logos Now. But you have until at least Nov 12 before your Now benefits expire (longer if your subscription expires after that date).

Have you purchased a Logos 7 Feature set?

Dave
===

Windows & Android

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 24 2018 3:38 PM

Anthony Dowden:
It seems to me that they are feeling their way around them see how far they can push us.

I am not thrilled with the news, but I don't think this is true. The two biggest issues, as I see them: 1) They created a brand new program and billed it as a replacement to the old one. It isn't. FL Connect (above starter) is for new users who don't own large libraries. There is nothing wrong with the program, but it doesn't replace LN. 2) FL spent two years trying to sell us on "buy books, rent features, save money." Many who were hesitant eventually bought in and liked the new model. I accept that FL tried something and that the numbers just didn't work for them. It is ok to try something and kill it if it doesn't work. Nevertheless, they convinced many people to adopt this model and it has been ripped out from under them. If there is a good solution to appease users, FL hasn't (publicly) discovered it yet. My best solution is to have a low fee payment plan. For users who already had paid for data sets, it is possible that the monthly charge wouldn't be too far off from LN. 

OSX & iOS | Logs |  Install

Posts 10112
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 24 2018 4:16 PM

JT (alabama24):

[ Nevertheless, they convinced many people to adopt this model and it has been ripped out from under them. If there is a good solution to appease users, FL hasn't (publicly) discovered it yet. My best solution is to have a low fee payment plan. For users who already had paid for data sets, it is possible that the monthly charge wouldn't be too far off from LN. 

I like your idea.

Not trying to whack Logos, but Now-ending is pretty much SOP for Logos, and I don’t know why. The staff cuts before Christmas had to be predictable. Some of their other whip-saws seemed avoidable. I remember the Hebrew/Greek Brill lexicons, almost over the line, then cost-doubled and dead. No explanation. I really don’t get it ... it seems self-inflicting. Anyhooo.


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Phil Gons (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 2 2018 2:34 PM

Check out Bob's announcement about the new migration plan for Logos Now members.

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