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This post has 389 Replies | 32 Followers

Posts 276
Mark Johnson | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 7:09 PM

A few thoughts:

1. I have never thought of getting the software for free. I thought the base package price included at least some cost for software (even if it did not cover the full development cost). When one has the option of buying different levels of datasets instead of a base package, that is surely about purchasing software.

2. It is bothersome that the standard and consistent line has been that Logos books cost more because of "value added" tagging and not that it is cover the software development cost. I am not opposed to it covering the software development cost, but why does it take this outcry of FLC to tell the truth about this?

3. I am in agreement with those that think that FL has diversified too much and should focus on its core. None of my Bible/theology/ministry professors or professors that I know use Logos. It seems to that it would be well worth FL's time to have meetings with these type of professors and find out how to make Logos appealing to them. For instance, I had one OT scholar speaking at an event and I was driving him to the event from the airport I asked him about the Bible software he uses and specifically about Logos. He does not use Logos and said that his scholar do not use because it cannot do the kind advanced search functions that they need. He has been to Logos trainings and asked about doing these searches and no one can tell him how to do it on Logos. If FL got more professors on board with its product, that would expand out to there students for years to come. (Please not that I am not claiming that no scholars us Logos).

Posts 496
Greg Masone | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 7:42 PM

Ruurd Offringa:

I've been thinking about what other model would work for both FL and the customers, and I understand the need and desire to go towards a subscription model. I think you can successfully do this with just tweaking and reprioritising what you already have.

The problem with all this, and this goes for Logos' implementation of it too, is everything's too confusing.

KISS is key, so here's my suggestion:

  • Logos Engine: Needs to be purchased each upgrade by anyone wanting to run Logos natively on a computer.
  • Logos Subscription: One subscription tier that includes web access to Logos AND all Logos published content AND public domain resources.
  • Logos Base Packages: Include the latest version of the Logos program and PRIMARILY resources that need royalties. No more public domain fluff. Maybe include subscription content, but maybe instead you want to give them an incentive to subscribe.
  • No dynamic pricing for subscription plan. All or nothing. No one's got time for that.
  • Individually purchased resources integrate with the user's library, whether subscription based or natively based, just like normal, and of course you keep them.

Subscription can be for people who only need Logos on a limited basis, or just want to get their feet wet, or something like that. The native program would be for anyone who wants to have downloaded resources on their computer. Subscribers would have to purchase it to get that functionality. Base packages would be for the professional user or highly motivated layman.

These are just quickly written ideas. I have no idea how Logos works internally and what the financials look like. But after watching things develop over the years into a more and more complex system, I think a big reset needs to happen. Income from book sales isn't cutting it, obviously, and somethings gotta give. My suggestion is to make the whole set-up similar to what works in the computer industry, to make it easy for the customer to understand and get sucked into, and to provide a consistent source of revenue so Logos can continue developing great software.

Posts 482
Bootjack | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 7:48 PM

Logos engine needs to purchased with each upgrade??? And I thought I was going to have a nice quiet seizure before. Unless I am misunderstanding this, maybe someone should delete this right off the forum. The rest needs not any comment. 

ASUS Rogue / 500 GB Samsung SSD / 500 GB HD / 16 Gigs of RAM/ Logos 8 Full Feature Set / Faithlife Connect Essentials 

Posts 20
Sojourner | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 8:14 PM

Greg Masone:
My suggestion is to make the whole set-up similar to what works in the computer industry, to make it easy for the customer to understand and get sucked into, and to provide a consistent source of revenue so Logos can continue developing great software.

What works in the computer industry is selling support to enterprises. One of the most successful software companies is GitLab. They don't charge for their basic product, they charge for professional features and fast support. If FL is having trouble keeping the cost of the engine down, then maybe it is time to consider open-source. There is a reason that major companies have started to open their source code. I'm not saying it will be a fix all, but software engineers/coders work on opensource projects a lot. This could be a way to tap a relatively unengaged set of Christian skill. Would Christian software designers be willing to throw some extra hours at Logos? I don't know, but I would venture to say yes. As long as the features they develop remain free, then gathering the coders should not be impossible. It would require some new marketing and engagement, though. FL could still charge for anything they develop in-house, which is the same way GitLab does it. If FL bundled things for a church (enterprise) and sold seats to the church for access to various FL products, then FL could sell/bundle subscription support for the product as well. 

I'm not saying that FL needs to go opensource, but if you want to talk about what the computer industry is doing, especially cutting-edge, then you have to talk about opensource. I'm just throwing things at a wall to see what sticks.

Posts 1022
Keith Pang | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 8:27 PM

No not pay for each upgrade that’s not something anyone will buy into 

Shalom, in Christ, Keith. Check out my music www.soundcloud.com/kpang808

Posts 1022
Keith Pang | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 8:28 PM

You can still create a free engine without features without making people pay when people invest thousands of dollars. Not a good suggestion 

Shalom, in Christ, Keith. Check out my music www.soundcloud.com/kpang808

Posts 496
Greg Masone | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 8:32 PM

Bootjack:
Logos engine needs to purchased with each upgrade??? And I thought I was going to have a nice quiet seizure before. Unless I am misunderstanding this, maybe someone should delete this right off the forum. The rest needs not any comment.

Hi Boot,

No, you heard me right. Just like almost every other piece of software out there, every major release needs to be purchased. I'm thinking point releases, like Logos 8 or Logos 9. Obviously if you buy a base package or upgrade, the Logos program is included with the price. But for those who don't need more books, but want to take advantage of new features and keep access to their books current on the latest operating systems and hardware, purchase the program. You purchase new hardware, right? Purchase new software too.

This isn't an odd idea. The software industry has been operating successfully like this for decades.

Logos cannot be compared to Adobe or Microsoft because of fundamental differences. Logos puts out both the tool and the resource, while those companies only put out the tools. Their subscription model is for the tools, not the resources. Making a subscription model based on the tool AND the resource only leads to massively huge subscription prices that nobody wants to pay.

Nix that idea and just sell the software like everyone else. Put all the non-royalty based resources on a flat-rate subscription plan thats limited to web access, and sell base packages and upgrades like normal for those who want Logos natively on their system long term. Keep the mobile programs free with a limited number of entry-level resources for entry-level people, but then just tie in a person's subscription and/or base packages into it. Subsidize it's development with some subscription revenue and desktop program revenue.

As I said earlier, in the digital age, where there are multiple mediums between the user and the content, its expected that the user will have to invest in new hardware and software to continue to have access to the content. With physical books you don't have that problem, which is why physical books are awesome. But you do with digital books, and we justify that by saying the benefits of digital outweigh these small constraints.

Logos is a digital book company. Its fully invested in digital books. While trying to embrace the benefits of digital books and the perpetual access of physical books has worked in the past when the industry was new and growing, its not working anymore when the industry is more established.

Embrace digital or go home. Accept that the medium between the user and content need funds to be maintained.

Posts 482
Bootjack | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 8:34 PM

I'm still trying to recover from that one. There's the slight possibility I might have to see a councilor in the morning. 

ASUS Rogue / 500 GB Samsung SSD / 500 GB HD / 16 Gigs of RAM/ Logos 8 Full Feature Set / Faithlife Connect Essentials 

Posts 2304
Beloved | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 8:35 PM

I finally got my email. After visiting my Subscription page, I called Customer Service to change my renewal from FLC to Verbum Now. The representative informed me that Verbum Now will be transitioned to FLC so he could not honor my request, but I was welcome to cancel the renwal of FLC. This contradicts the statements posted in this thread. 

https://community.logos.com/forums/p/160523/957990.aspx#957990 

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

Posts 1022
Keith Pang | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 8:35 PM

So glad you’re making all the decisions for Logos 

Shalom, in Christ, Keith. Check out my music www.soundcloud.com/kpang808

Posts 496
Greg Masone | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 8:38 PM
Keith Pang:

No not pay for each upgrade that’s not something anyone will buy into 

Sure they will if they want to maintain access to their resources on new hardware and operating systems. That's the hidden cost and danger of going digital. There are more barriers to consumption that physical books don't have. We shouldn't expect Logos to pay us for the natural deficiencies of digital books.
Posts 482
Bootjack | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 8:39 PM

Greg, what am I missing here? When I buy Logos 8, I'm going to pay that which represents a lot of MacDonald's coffee. :-) 

Are you saying then, amongst other things, there should be no free engine but that it should be paid for? 

ASUS Rogue / 500 GB Samsung SSD / 500 GB HD / 16 Gigs of RAM/ Logos 8 Full Feature Set / Faithlife Connect Essentials 

Posts 1098
Sean | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 8:40 PM

Keith Pang:

So glad you’re making all the decisions for Logos 

All these speculative suggestions are just needless distractions that aren't going to have any influence on FL. With changes like this one has to accept realities:

  • FaithLife isn't going to start charging for engine updates.
  • Though they might do other things to pacify us, they're not going to rollback Connect for Now or significantly reduce Connect's price.
  • Verbum Now isn't going to work as an escape hatch.

The most important thing customers can do is decide as individuals how they're going to modify their purchasing behavior and strategies. We might be able to rock the boat a bit, but we're not going to steer it.

Posts 496
Greg Masone | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 8:43 PM

Keith Pang:

You can still create a free engine without features without making people pay when people invest thousands of dollars. Not a good suggestion 

Maybe as an incredibly barebones solution, ala Kindle software where you basically just read it and thats it. But even then pay for it. Logos isn't a billion dollar company that's only started making a profit after 20 years.

Again, this is the cost of going digital. Anytime you put extra things between the user and the content they're trying to access, you're going to run into the issue of maintaining access in an ever-progressing tech field.

Posts 129
Joe Mayden | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 8:43 PM

here is my question.  I doubt I will buy any more books.  I am a Now Subscriber and have been migrated.  I am told that when my current contract for Now expires, I will be charged $200 for the NEW DEAL - much of what I don't currently use or want, videos, courses, graphics.  They will give me a $200 credit for Logos 8.  

How much will the Logos 8 cost me?  Someone who has been a user since 1994 and has all the books he will ever need, over 4,000 volumes?  Will my Logos 8 Gold Reformed or whatever you call it cost me more than the $200 credit?

Could someone answer that question?

Thanks, 

Posts 482
Bootjack | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 8:46 PM

Greg Masone:
Keith Pang:

No not pay for each upgrade that’s not something anyone will buy into 

Sure they will if they want to maintain access to their resources on new hardware and operating systems. That's the hidden cost and danger of going digital. There are more barriers to consumption that physical books don't have. We shouldn't expect Logos to pay us for the natural deficiencies of digital books.

What scares me in this post as in your previous one, is it seems to be saying, if we don't pay for the engine in the next release, our Logos 6 or Logos 7 is not going to kick into gear (work).Surely I am reading this wrong. I know I need sleep and I'm hoping I am not reading this correctly.  :-) 

ASUS Rogue / 500 GB Samsung SSD / 500 GB HD / 16 Gigs of RAM/ Logos 8 Full Feature Set / Faithlife Connect Essentials 

Posts 496
Greg Masone | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 8:46 PM

Keith Pang:
So glad you’re making all the decisions for Logos 

I'm not, but as a long-time customer with $23K invested in Logos, I'm telling them what I would be interested in supporting.

Posts 150
Rob Lambert | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 8:47 PM

 

William Gabriel:

Rob Lambert:

Logos is driven by hungry commission driven sales people selling to people who want nothing more than to understand the Bible and serve God.

Several years ago (ca 2010) we learned that the Logos sales structure was switched so that salesmen didn't earn commissions anymore. Unless it was quietly changed back in the intervening years, commission is not sales' primary motivation.

The sales men and woman have a wonderful godly attitude and a desire to sell their products.  I wish I could get that type of person without incentivising them based on sales.

Sorry.... 

Posts 496
Greg Masone | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 8:49 PM

Bootjack:
Are you saying then, amongst other things, there should be no free engine but that it should be paid for? 

Yep.

Either that or give us free software inundated with advertisements. Indifferent

So with that said, if book revenue isn't paying the bills any more, and subscription services have failed in the past (and will probably do the same for the future), what other solutions are there?

Posts 496
Greg Masone | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 8:50 PM

Sean:
FaithLife isn't going to start charging for engine updates.

Bob responded to me a few pages back and said its not off the table.

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