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Posts 145
Ross Strader | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 24 2018 8:43 AM

Bob Pritchett:
We need a true 'no purchase necessary, pure subscription' product. That's Faithlife Connect, and it's a great value that offers Logos Bible Software via the web (and mobile, and even download if you want), as well as Faithlife TV, Courses, and more.

Bob, what 'industry' is this now? It seems a confusion. Bible Software is what you are good at. Do Bible Software. FL-TV -- Not only do I not want it or care about it... have you seen it? What in the heck is the software company leading the industry in Bible Software doing trying to enter the market of Amazon, Netflix, Hulu.... with a "Christian alternative"...

Logos - do what your good at. You are Very Good at Bible Software!

You are not good at TV - you won't be - you don't have enough money to be good at that.

You are not good at Presentation software - Proclaim is a mess - a terrible mess. I'll say it if nobody else will.

Your Mobile ED is fine... there are lots of free/less expensive options out there that are EQUALLY as good in scholarship and content - Bill Mounce is doing it... he is not the only one. Sure, your production level is higher quality - but not worth the money you charge for it.

I fear you are abandoning the industry you created... where is the Faithlife Podcast? Turns out... podcast is something people actually listen to... You social media presence is not creative - it is sales... boring and irrelevant.

Your Forum Page looks like a flea market with the 29 categories nobody cares about... seriously - nobody cares.

Your Beta program has become nothing but incremental bug fixes for the past 6months... For what? To work on Faithlife TV... please tell us you will abandon this. -- No one cares.

And here is the deal - if you do get good at TV... then the Bible Study Software is what will pay the price ... to the degree you succeed at TV - I predict the quality, innovation and excellence of the Bible Study Software will suffer.

How about this... SELL Your Bible Study Software to another company - if you need some cash to fund this other stuff... just sell it - let someone who cares about Bible Study Software buy it from you and then you can go compete with Amazon and Netflix and Online Universities and Microsoft Powerpoint... every other industry you are trying to dabble in.

This feels like trying to raise money for the other endeavors you are hoping will grow this business... but on the backs of people that came to you in the first place for what you do well - better than anyone.

I'm not interested in funding these other endeavors. I don't care about them.

I don't know... maybe Logos 8 is the key that unlocks all of this confusion - and it is the greatest leap forward in Bible Software since... well, you did it the last time about 10yrs ago... However, I fear it is one more iteration of dilution of why people buy and use Logos in the first place. I guess a little time will tell.

BTW - I love Logos Bible Software. I've used it for almost 20yrs now and it has been a place I've invested much of my extra money over the years. But, personally - I'm not interested in buying any of the other products you are selling... there are other and better options for those.

MacBook Pro 15' Retina  •  2.7 GHz Intel Core i7  •  16 GB 1600 MHz DDR3  •  Version 10.10

Posts 401
Jordan Litchfield | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 24 2018 10:37 AM

Bob,

I really appreciate the time that you have taken to outline FL's position and to dialog with the customer base.

As someone who subscribed to LN and must say that I am disappointed with the move to FLC. I have read through (at the time of writing) all 13 pages on this thread and I think I have to agree that the communication of this move could have been much better and also that you may have misunderstood why many of us actually subscribed to LN.

I am a pastor with a little activity in academics. As such, I am not really interested in all the ancillary programs that FL has developed. FLTV has very little interest to me, and I am fairly competent with Power Point and have no interest in Proclaim (I have actually tested it out).

Consequently, I would echo what many others have said that I am strictly interested in Bible study and research around theology and biblical studies. Because biblical studies and theology is always progressing, I will always have an interest in more books. Therefore, I wish that FL would focus on the Bible software end of things.

If I understood your points, the concern on your end is maintaining something viable as a company, and I know that you have to make your own decisions as to what that means. And maybe those of us on this thread (and the other threads discussing this move) really only represent a small percentage of your actual customer base. However, I just want to chime in that I am concerned about the direction things are heading.

I am going to try out the new FL Essentials until my LN expires and then make a final decision, but at the moment I am pretty sure that I will be deciding not to continue with it. The cost is too steep for my interests. I do appreciate the coupon and also the nine months to make a decision.

Every blessing for the future.

Posts 5250
Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 24 2018 11:00 AM

Paul Strickert:

One trend I've seen in my part of the U.S. (and others have reported elsewhere) is a drop in regular church attendance.  Those who do attend, in my experience, seem less interested in serious Bible study.  To be honest, I'm alarmed that people show little interest in becoming more biblically literate.  I cannot help but wonder how this affects Bible software companies, especially Logos/FL, which caters to the pretty serious student of Scripture.

Exactly but Bob's expansion of TV and presentation points to going after a dying market.... He has wisely started to go after general humanity students but I am not sure how well Noet is going, indeed in the ebooks not site I have at times had issues where a book I want is not available in Canada... which is a sad but true thing.. FL has less to offer me in way of books because many books I want are either not offered or sitting in prePub limbo with little to no chance of ever getting out of there. 

-dan

Posts 8

What is this coupon? Are only some of use getting it or is there some specific criteria? I own Logos 7 Baptist with the full Logos feature set and currenfly have a Logos Now subscription as well. I looked but no email wet coupons rollovera etc. Are there specific criteria for that?

Posts 443
Bill Cook | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 24 2018 11:11 AM

Not a happy camper!

I believe the initial announcement for LN was the brilliant additional features “now”.

I was a long time Adobe customer. I owned Photoshop, Illustrator, and InDesign - all very expensive programs. Then, they went subscription model and I slowly extracted myself from Adobe after being loyal and upgrading along the way to keep my software current. But I couldn’t do it every year. Some years it was not worth it.

But, now a competitor, Serif, came out with an image editor and drawing app that are much less expensive but have the features or nearly as Photoshop and Illustrator. The market dictated or allowed for such an opening.

Your new pricing model is leaving us behind. I can’t justify $240/yr to keep up. The market will now allow a competitor to occupy the spot you are vacating. I really like the Logos software. It is the best I think available. But, I feel like I am being punished for not paying enoug somehow. 

If I went to my boss and said I could not afford to live on what he pays me and said I would now require to be paid 140% more, he would show me the door.

Perhaps you could offer an increase in price more incrementally. This is frankly outrageons!

Posts 5250
Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 24 2018 11:14 AM
Keith Pang:

Don‘t use Greg’s suggestion of making people pay for the new engines that’s not smart. You will lose pretty much a huge part of your customers. Instead how about just giving the new engine with no features so it runs but people will pay for features

We already are and I am ok with it.. core engine is free but all the feature sets you are paying for very few if any feature sets are free... I am ok with that.. I am happy to spend $49 every 2 years for the latest version of Accordance. Logos has a free core engine several months after release but it is not free for the first while.... As far as I am concerned the base engine being free has felt for years like smoke and mirrors. Getting rid of the pretence of a free engine would not bother me. -dan
Posts 2305
Beloved | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 24 2018 11:23 AM

I called Customer Service to set up my Auto-Renew with Verbum Now and they referred me to the Products Team at this time the Products Team is uncertain as to how to proceed with setting up accounts that do not start today. The representative said he would have to consult with his manager as to who should be handling this. It is his opinion that Customer Service should be handling this. He told me he would have to get back with me on Tues. So, the process is still uncertain at this time.

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

Posts 91
David Mullens | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 24 2018 12:31 PM

I was surprised to see the email from FaithLife regarding the change in LN. However, I am a customer. Bob runs the company. As the CEO, he, and others, make decisions they believe are in the best interest of the company and the many employees.

As a Customer, I will make decisions that fit with my budget, values, needs, etc. At this point, I'm not sure what I will do when my LN subscription runs out. I've used Logos for at least 15 years. I will continue to use it. 

My church has a faithlifeTV subscription (at $950+ a year). I'm still trying to discern if our congregation uses it enough to justify purchasing it. I use it for the Mobile Ed courses and find it is a cost-effective way to keep up my education. Come next year, the church may not subscribe to FaithLifeTV, especially if I'm able to get the same features from FaithLife Connect.

I'm giving the FaithLifeTV a bit more time, but my fear is I might be the only one using it.

My church also subscribes to Proclaim, which we love. Some of us use the social site FaithLife as well.

I have been confused over the past few years with the name, name changes, and products names of FaithLife. My sense is Faithlife is trying to merge things in a way that will, at some point, make sense.

Right now, if you go to Faithlife.com you don't go to the company website (which would make sense), instead you go to a social media site.

If you go logos.com you go to the company website..but wait...no that's the Bible Software's website. From there, I can shop by tradition...such as Catholic...oh wait...that says the Catholic version of Logos is Verbum. If you go to faithlife.com/about you seem to be at the company website.

I'm sure there are reasons why things are setup the way they are. I, however, am looking forward to the day when it all makes sense. 

Transitions are difficult. Computing has changed. Subscription models are becoming more popular. Companies must adapt or die. I assume FaithLife is no different.

I do most of my work on a Chromebook and need the web app, so that may end up being my determining factor. 

I agree that FaithLifeTV lacks...a lot. As far as I know, if I want all the mobile ed courses, I have to take the FaithLifeTV as well. Not sure I've watched any of the programs on FaithLifeTV other than Mobile Ed.

In the end, it is up to me as the customer to determine what is best for my situation. While I have enjoyed Logos, LN, Proclaim, etc., in the end FaithLife will determine what they need to charge. I would never think about walking up to a Target employee (or the CEO) and complain that they raised the price of my favorite (fill in the blank). Companies are constantly raising prices for the same, and at times, less services. DishTV, Comcast, etc., etc. 

I appreciate what FaithLife has done. They've given us a 9 month warning. Given us more than what they promised for LN, and have even offered a coupon.

I think most other companies would have put out an email that said, "We regret that we will no longer be offering product X. We will honor your subscription, but once it is up, here are your new options."

I received a similar email from CrashPlan (my online backup), telling me I would have to move to the business plan. They were discontinuing the plan I had been for the past few years. If you want to see how they did things here you go: https://www.crashplan.com/en-us/consumer/nextsteps/

No coupon. Just saying, upgrade to our (much) more business plan, or move to another service. I moved. At this point, I doubt I will move from FaithLife. 

I am a bit hesitant to post this since, from what I read, it seems to be a different tone from what I've read (I have not read all 14 pages...just don't have the time). I decided to post anyway, if only to provide a different perspective.

Peace - David.

Posts 2305
Beloved | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 24 2018 12:46 PM

David Mullens:

In the end, it is up to me as the customer to determine what is best for my situation. While I have enjoyed Logos, LN, Proclaim, etc., in the end FaithLife will determine what they need to charge. I would never think about walking up to a Target employee (or the CEO) and complain that they raised the price of my favorite (fill in the blank). Companies are constantly raising prices for the same, and at times, less services. DishTV, Comcast, etc., etc. 

I appreciate what FaithLife has done. They've given us a 9 month warning. Given us more than what they promised for LN, and have even offered a coupon.

 Yes

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

Posts 781
scooter | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 24 2018 12:50 PM

David Mullens:
I would never think about walking up to a Target employee (or the CEO) and complain that they raised the price of my favorite (fill in the blank). Companies are constantly raising prices for the same, and at times, less services. DishTV, Comcast, etc., etc.

I feel peaceful reading Ur heartfelt message.

But, I'm not U, so I take it to the man in a stronger fashion because I think he needs to hear the sitrep in a firmer way.  Otherwise, he may think he can bob [!] + weave some + we are all OK with it.

Definitely, I would tell the Target CEO if I thought there was a serious ongoing problem.  But, I'd never find him; Bob had the courage to show on the forums [although a day late].

Posts 27
Matt Hudson | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 24 2018 12:56 PM

David Mullens:

In the end, it is up to me as the customer to determine what is best for my situation. While I have enjoyed Logos, LN, Proclaim, etc., in the end FaithLife will determine what they need to charge. I would never think about walking up to a Target employee (or the CEO) and complain that they raised the price of my favorite (fill in the blank). Companies are constantly raising prices for the same, and at times, less services. DishTV, Comcast, etc., etc. 

I appreciate what FaithLife has done. They've given us a 9 month warning. Given us more than what they promised for LN, and have even offered a coupon.

I think most other companies would have put out an email that said, "We regret that we will no longer be offering product X. We will honor your subscription, but once it is up, here are your new options."

I think it would be different if a comparable online service (Amazon Prime or Netflix) did this. If an online service cancels their whole service, gives it a new name, then offers the same service back to their users at twice the price, I have a sense many, many customers would have plenty of complaints and suggestions for the company. And rightly so. 

It certainly is FL's decision to make. But, paying customers have every expectation that they will be treated fairly by that company. Bob can do what he wants. But, he should not be surprised if customers feel treated badly, or even like they've been tricked by this move.

Posts 10178
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 24 2018 1:21 PM

As noted earlier, my weather app ended subscriptions; no warning.  Full-screen adverts.

And the angry bees dutifully began a long string of 1-stars, etc. Customers DO pipe up.

Bob has asked us to keep our angry-bee comments in-house (the forum).  That’s fair.


Posts 383
Danny Parker | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 24 2018 1:21 PM

Actually, Netflix did sort of do this when they disconnected the streaming and DVD parts of their offering. To have the same features as before the price doubled. They had that right. And I had the option to discontinue that service.

It makes it much harder though when you have a 5 digit dollar investment in the company. Hard to just walk away and take your business elsewhere.That I think is some of the reaction. We as a long term user base are locked tightly into the service, and we are concerned with the direction and the continually increasing cost. This is especially true when it appears that what matters to me increases substantially in cost, while these increases fund features I have no interest in (and question if those features will ever be self supporting).

Let's not even talk about TV services and their bundling. That is another topic that causes me to lose my Christian testimony.

Posts 1074
Martin Folley | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 24 2018 1:22 PM

David, Thank you for you post ... I enjoyed the Grace and Pace of it, after so many frenetic posts of the last couple of days. 

That said, whilst I largely agree with you, and many other posters along the way, I am left wondering if there really is another model with which we can compare Logos?

I cannot think of another situation where I have so much invested in the success of a company. If Netflix et. al change ... I can swap with no loss; if Microsoft change, I can swap with little cost; if Adobe move to a subscription model I can ... (oooops already stopped using their software!!!). If Ford asked me to start paying a rental on the car I already own ... then I sell and move on .... BUT Logos is different. It is, at this point for me, a monopoly ... unless Accordance said that they would honour my licenses if I would start purchasing from them ... I am kinda attached to the fortunes of Logos. My investment there is considerably more than anything Ford, GM etc. have ever gotten out of me combined ... and I cannot just walk away to another service provider.

The continual health of Logos is one of the reasons that I subscribed to LN. Most of the 'new features' and data sets are fluff; the previews are a pain cluttering up my library ... the free books are largely PD padding. It is the need for the existence of Logos into the future that largely motivated me; in the same way as when I paid for the Logos for Mac version 1.0 ... it was not really in expectation for a return but in response that software costs ... and I am happy to pay a reasonable amount for their continued service.

That said ... I think that Logos has acted honourably with the vouchers and the advanced notice ... and like you I really wish they could sort out their identity crises! Thank you Bob, Chris and Phil etc. for being in these forums ... thank you for listening ...

2010 17" MBP with High Sierra, iPad4 with iOS10.

Posts 27
Matt Hudson | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 24 2018 1:26 PM

Danny Parker:

Actually, Netflix did sort of do this when they disconnected the streaming and DVD parts of their offering. To have the same features as before the price doubled. They had that right. And I had the option to discontinue that service.

This is a great example of my point. When Netflix changed from physical service to digital service, they had a serious uproar. But, they offered the same service for the same price to those who wanted it (though they outsourced it). You can still get the physical DVD-only service from them. https://dvd.netflix.com/

What FL is doing is giving us no option. No chance to keep what we've signed up for. Changing the name, doubling the price.

That's what feels so unfair.

Posts 91
David Mullens | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 24 2018 1:28 PM

Matt Hudson:

I think it would be different if a comparable online service (Amazon Prime or Netflix) did this. If an online service cancels their whole service, gives it a new name, then offers the same service back to their users at twice the price, I have a sense many, many customers would have plenty of complaints and suggestions for the company. And rightly so. 

It certainly is FL's decision to make. But, paying customers have every expectation that they will be treated fairly by that company. Bob can do what he wants. But, he should not be surprised if customers feel treated badly, or even like they've been tricked by this move.

Did they cancel their whole service and then offer the same thing? Is it the _same_ product?

Seems like it is a slightly different product. From what I can tell, they are discontinuing Logos Now. Not a name change, but completely discontinuing it. Before FL had Logos Now and Logos Cloud. They've created a third subscription option, FL Connect. 

Perhaps they should have simply raised the price for LN. I guess they decided that would have made people mad. 

From what I can tell, FL is saying the closest product to LN with similar features is FL Connect Essentials at $108/yr. 

I'm not sure FL did a great job of explaining what was happening, but I could be wrong. Looks like FL has 

1) Gotten rid of Logos Now completely. It is gone.

2) Rolled Logos Cloud into FaithLife Connect see: https://logoscloud.com/products/138567/logos-cloud-starter

- While the above link says that Logos Cloud is now part of FaithLife Connect, there isn't any way to purchase Logos Cloud separately. So, I wonder if Logos Cloud is effectively gone as well. Makes sense to have one product rather than two (or three).

3) Introduced (?? Not sure if this was a product before or not) FL Connect with has Logos Cloud + FaithLife TV. 

Sure, there may be features of LN that people liked and depended on. Sure, FL Connect might cost more and have FL TV that isn't wanted. But, in the end, it seems like to me that FL Connect is a new product and they are discontinuing LN. 

It will be interesting to see the outcries cause any changes. Bob seems to want to do right by the customers.  

Posts 27
Matt Hudson | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 24 2018 1:33 PM

David Mullens:

Did they cancel their whole service and then offer the same thing? Is it the _same_ product?

Seems like it is a slightly different product. From what I can tell, they are discontinuing Logos Now. Not a name change, but completely discontinuing it. Before FL had Logos Now and Logos Cloud. They've created a third subscription option, FL Connect. 

I would recommend looking at the "before" and "after" on this chart. Before = LN, Middle Column = FC at our current price (with half the features), Essentials = what we have in LN for twice the price.
https://connect.faithlife.com/now-connect-compare

And one correction, the Essentials package is nearly 200/yr. That's twice what LN was.

Posts 91
David Mullens | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 24 2018 1:37 PM

Danny Parker:

It makes it much harder though when you have a 5 digit dollar investment in the company. Hard to just walk away and take your business elsewhere.That I think is some of the reaction. We as a long term user base are locked tightly into the service, and we are concerned with the direction and the continually increasing cost. This is especially true when it appears that what matters to me increases substantially in cost, while these increases fund features I have no interest in (and question if those features will ever be self supporting).

Let's not even talk about TV services and their bundling. That is another topic that causes me to lose my Christian testimony.

Danny, I understand. While I haven't invested 5 digits, I am over $5,000 of resources, which, as I understand it, I can continue to use forever. The decision I will make is whether to keep upgrading or not. Do I need the new features? Probably not. While always nice, Logos is a fairly mature product. I do use the web app and will probably have to pony up $200/year to keep it, or purchase the features. It's not that I like it. 

I realize that Bob is running FL the best he believes and has statistics, information, etc. that I do not have. Companies make these sort of decisions and I'm left to make my own. Perhaps Bob and FL have run the numbers and decided that having all of the customers who used LN leave was better than continuing the way things were. 

I'm sure he hopes that customers don't leave. Yet, there are times when a short-term loss leads to a long-term gain. If it means FL continues, grows, and provides better and better resources and tools, well, I can't say I can fault their decision. They may be wrong. They may be very wrong. As always, time will tell.

Wish all of you a peaceful evening, and a worshipful weekend.

Peace, David.

Posts 91
David Mullens | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 24 2018 1:46 PM

Matt Hudson:

David Mullens:

Did they cancel their whole service and then offer the same thing? Is it the _same_ product?

Seems like it is a slightly different product. From what I can tell, they are discontinuing Logos Now. Not a name change, but completely discontinuing it. Before FL had Logos Now and Logos Cloud. They've created a third subscription option, FL Connect. 

I would recommend looking at the "before" and "after" on this chart. Before = LN, Middle Column = FC at our current price (with half the features), Essentials = what we have in LN for twice the price.
https://connect.faithlife.com/now-connect-compare

And one correction, the Essentials package is nearly 200/yr. That's twice what LN was.

True. What they did was add the LFTV subscription to the mix and (I think) got rid of the feature upgrades. 

I believe Bob said one of the challenges with LN was the feature upgrades. I wonder what the reaction would be if they would have simply removed that part of LN and charged the same amount.

Perhaps they should have just doubled the price of LN. 

In the end, the only way they wouldn't have had this reaction was to leave everything the way it was. Apparently, they didn't see that as an option. Maybe after a few weeks, they may find another way. After all, the change isn't supposed to take effect for a while. 

Posts 781
scooter | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 24 2018 1:46 PM

Martin Folley:
BUT Logos is different. It is, at this point for me, a monopoly

...which is y I get on their case some.  I do not want to be taken for granted; the monopoly can lend itself to that process.  We, the consumers, need 2b vigilant.

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