BBHG: Color formatting

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Lee | Forum Activity | Posted: Mon, Mar 19 2018 3:00 PM

Basics of Biblical Hebrew: Grammar needs to be cleaned up. There are obvious typos and, even worse, the color formatting of diagnostic features is missing. The color formatting is integral to the book and its use is outlined in the main text.

This is a popular text so hopefully something can be done about it. 

Posts 1028
Keith Pang | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 19 2018 3:23 PM

I concur 

Shalom, in Christ, Keith. Check out my music www.soundcloud.com/therealkpang

Posts 2589
Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 19 2018 5:31 PM

Could there be some technical hurdle? I just tried it in a word-processing software, and I couldn't change the color of individual vowels.

Posts 443
Adam Olean | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 19 2018 5:45 PM

Lee:

Could there be some technical hurdle? I just tried it in a word-processing software, and I couldn't change the color of individual vowels.

I think you're right, Lee. I recall Faithlife employees and perhaps even Bob Pritchett himself discussing some of these limitations. It looks like the advantage goes to print over Logos Editions in this case.

Posts 1028
Keith Pang | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 19 2018 6:13 PM

Would a highlighting style work? That is the only idea I can think of to try and get it close to the original 

Shalom, in Christ, Keith. Check out my music www.soundcloud.com/therealkpang

Posts 2589
Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 20 2018 2:21 PM

Another possible workaround?

to insert the Combining Grapheme Joiner (U+034F) between the base letter and the accent. This way the font renderer won’t try to substitute the precomposed glyph and instead apply the colours to each character separately.

Posts 443
Adam Olean | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 21 2018 4:56 PM

Lee:

Basics of Biblical Hebrew: Grammar needs to be cleaned up. There are obvious typos and, even worse, the color formatting of diagnostic features is missing. The color formatting is integral to the book and its use is outlined in the main text.

This is a popular text so hopefully something can be done about it. 

The discussion in the following thread might be relevant (see especially the comment by Eli Evans):

https://community.logos.com/forums/t/104945.aspx 

I saw a few threads and posts that contained similar ideas/requests, but not much discussion overall.

https://community.logos.com/forums/t/140336.aspx 

https://community.logos.com/forums/t/123059.aspx 

https://community.logos.com/forums/p/66378/464922.aspx#464922 

Posts 443
Adam Olean | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 21 2018 4:58 PM

Lee:

Another possible workaround?

to insert the Combining Grapheme Joiner (U+034F) between the base letter and the accent. This way the font renderer won’t try to substitute the precomposed glyph and instead apply the colours to each character separately.

It'd be great if this would work! Yes I can think of several other grammars and charts that would also benefit from color formatting.

Posts 9057
LogosEmployee

The Logos resource format does not currently support colouring individual glyphs in a word with a different colour.

I think it would be technically possible to do (I mean, anything’s possible, it's “just” pixels on a screen, right? Smile), but it would be complex. The whole word would have to be laid out at once (because placing multiple marks on one consonant can affect the overall layout), then individual parts of that glyph run would have to be drawn with different brushes. The text is stored as Unicode characters, but the glyph run comprises glyph indices (that depend on the current font). This isn’t necessarily a one-to-one mapping, and constructing the mapping requires some low-level code that can understand OpenType font tables. Also, most text shaping engines (that I’m familiar with) end up laying out Hebrew text left-to-right (I’m guessing so that all x-advances are positive); this just adds a new complication in that the differently-coloured text runs would have to be painted “backwards”.

So while it may be possible, it’s definitely complex and not currently on our roadmap.

Lee:

Another possible workaround?

to insert the Combining Grapheme Joiner (U+034F) between the base letter and the accent. This way the font renderer won’t try to substitute the precomposed glyph and instead apply the colours to each character separately.

This issue isn’t really related to precomposed glyphs.

Posts 1028
Keith Pang | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 21 2018 9:34 PM

Any chance to fix it?

Shalom, in Christ, Keith. Check out my music www.soundcloud.com/therealkpang

Posts 2589
Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 21 2018 11:11 PM

Bradley Grainger (Faithlife):

The Logos resource format does not currently support colouring individual glyphs in a word with a different colour.

So while it may be possible, it’s definitely complex and not currently on our roadmap.

This issue isn’t really related to precomposed glyphs.

If it's an issue with whole "words", the words in question do not need to be searched or indexed, so could they be laid down part by part or glyph by glyph?

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Forum MVP
Reuben Helmuth | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 22 2018 12:23 AM

Bradley Grainger (Faithlife):
So while it may be possible, it’s definitely complex and not currently on our roadmap.

I'd like to add my voice to the chorus here! "Fixing" this would take care, not only of the BBHG issue but also of the bigger issue (IMHO) of visual filters and/or search hits highlighting entire Hebrew words. A few years ago, I pointed out that A competitor was able to highlight individual parts of the Hebrew word. Currently, creating a visual filter that highlights e.g. certain pronouns, results in every verb with the matching pronominal suffix also highlighted, preventing me from doing anything on verbs. This has been a point of frustration and it contributes to the perspective that Logos can't handle the original languages as well.

Edit: I'd like to see this put on the roadmap. I'm fine with it not being in the immediate future, as long as I know it's planned.

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PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 22 2018 12:57 PM

Bradley Grainger (Faithlife):
Also, most text shaping engines (that I’m familiar with) end up laying out Hebrew text left-to-right (I’m guessing so that all x-advances are positive); this just adds a new complication in that the differently-coloured text runs would have to be painted “backwards”.

On a related note, Logos still doesn't properly layout Hebrew words which have note indicators attached to them. There's also a layout issue where highlighted nikkud is mispositioned.

Bradley Grainger (Faithlife):
it’s definitely complex and not currently on our roadmap.

I can imagine that it's definitely complex, but fixing existing colored text layout issues should be on the roadmap for some future version of Logos.

I would guess that L8 is too close to being released this year, but could this be overhauled for L9, please?

Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!

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Forum MVP
Reuben Helmuth | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 22 2018 1:37 PM

PetahChristian:
I would guess that L8 is too close to being released this year, but could this be overhauled for L9, please?

i wanted to be gracious but not “L9 gracious!”. That’s 2.5 years away isn’t it?

Posts 1028
Keith Pang | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 22 2018 1:41 PM

I hope it’s sooner rather than later 

Shalom, in Christ, Keith. Check out my music www.soundcloud.com/therealkpang

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Forum MVP
Reuben Helmuth | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 24 2018 2:54 AM

Just found the posting I alluded to earlier: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/104945.aspx 

Posts 2589
Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 24 2018 3:02 AM

Thanks for bringing that up in a concrete way.

Again, the use of the Combining Grapheme Joiner (U+034F) might be one possible option if a delimiter is needed between glyphs. But in the end a customised font rendering engine may be the answer.

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Forum MVP
Reuben Helmuth | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 24 2018 10:39 AM

In the thread linked in my previous post Eli says:

Eli Evans (Faithlife):
Unicode rendering rules do not allow Hebrew runs to start with a vowel, so we can't render them independent of the word they're attached to.

I just had a thought (I'm no expert in this)... what about injecting a byte order mark (U+FEFF)? This whole situation might take a bit of "trickery" but it has to be doable!

Posts 254
Theo | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 26 2018 9:16 PM

An updated work is slated to come out I think later this year. Not sure what can be done in the new edition!

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