OT: New discoveries about the KJV's translation

Page 2 of 3 (49 items) < Previous 1 2 3 Next >
This post has 48 Replies | 3 Followers

Posts 514
Gordon Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 3 2018 2:44 AM

Paul:

I respect your opinion

Yes

Paul:

I (at least) have bought many resources from Faithlife, recommended by people on this forum and even some with whom I would profoundly disagree.   

YesBig Smile

Posts 10115
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 3 2018 6:38 AM

Paul:

Archbishop Abbot issued a decree threatening a year’s imprisonment to any Bible printer deleting the Apocrypha.

Ad hominem-ing a little, this well might be the reason Logos Bible Software was delayed 400 years.


Posts 420
Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 3 2018 7:30 AM

Denise:

Paul:

Archbishop Abbot issued a decree threatening a year’s imprisonment to any Bible printer deleting the Apocrypha.

Ad hominem-ing a little, this well might be the reason Logos Bible Software was delayed 400 years.

You mean....anything outside the canon is simply software....! Wink  Keep well Paul 

Posts 461
Robert Harner | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 3 2018 11:06 AM

I read several of her articles. They conform to the click-bait quality of the rest of the Beast site. 

Posts 5248
Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 3 2018 9:01 PM

Paul:
Among contemporary Protestants only the Anglicans make use of the Apocrypha to any degree.

Lutherans use it almost as much too. As well as most all Christians on earth. 

-dan

Posts 26263
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 4 2018 2:30 AM

Dan Francis:

Paul:
Among contemporary Protestants only the Anglicans make use of the Apocrypha to any degree.

Lutherans use it almost as much too. As well as most all Christians on earth.

Also note that a number of mainline Protestant churches are moving to the Ecumenical canon of the NRSV (and others) which is the Byzantine Orthodox canon.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 420
Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 4 2018 2:40 AM

MJ. Smith:

Also note that a number of mainline Protestant churches are moving to the Ecumenical canon of the NRSV (and others).

Thanks MJ - Its very possible you are right. Perhaps that's a good reason for believers to stay away from those mainline Protestant churches?  If they cannot honour the traditional Protestant canon of Scripture, then nothing is sacred to them. Their adoption of an 'ecumenical canon'  might be just another sign of 'falling away' in these last days. Keep well  Paul  

Posts 10115
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 4 2018 6:59 AM

In the tradition of discussion (and I use the NRSV and guess don't honor guy-dom and the Protestant traditions), it's not clear whether the apocrypha was held very high in the 2nd Temple period. It seems to have survived from its presumed Egyptian roots (LXX). Even Ecclesiasticus is a big question mark. They were still arguing over the prophets and writings.


Posts 26263
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 4 2018 12:22 PM

Paul:
Perhaps that's a good reason for believers to stay away from those mainline Protestant churches?  If they cannot honour the traditional Protestant canon of Scripture, then nothing is sacred to them.

Paul, this is exactly the type of comment that is not appropriate in the forums. If I were to respond in kind on behalf of the 1,801,000,000 or so Christian who utilize some form of a larger canon, it would cause an uproar. You need not hide your beliefs, but on the forums you must also respect the beliefs of the other 2,420,000,000 Christians in the world.

Phil Gons (Faithlife):

Please abide by the following guidelines as you interact on our forums.

  1. Please keep your discussions focused on Logos Bible Software: our software, products, websites, company, tools, etc.
  2. Please do not discuss or debate biblical, theological, or other controversial topics. Use one of the many web forums intended for these kinds of discussions.
  3. Please treat each other with the love, courtesy, respect, and kindness that you would if you were sitting in your living room together.
  4. Please do not use our forums to
    • sell or give away anything or link to anything you’re selling or giving away—including Logos products
    • promote or link to competitors
    • point people to other places that sell Logos-compatible products
    • advertise yourself, your business, your ministry, your website, etc. (a tasteful link in your forum signature is acceptable)
    • post Logos Coupon Codes. If you are aware of a special promotion Logos is running online, you are welcome to link directly to the promotion.
  5. Please search before posting. It’s likely that someone has already asked your question.
  6. Please help others follow these guidelines. If the problems continue after you’ve given a gentle reminder of these expectations, please click “Report Abuse” under “More” or send an email to forums@logos.com.

Thank you for your cooperation. Enjoy discussing and learning about Logos Bible Software.

which is why Lee posted a gentle reminder

Lee:

I would like to weigh in with a personal opinion. I am motivated not only by this thread but others I've read this past year.

The original post, I thought to be off-topic, but potentially germane to Logos. Having read that article, my takeaway was to watch out for new info or works on this issue, preferably in Logos, if not by some other source.

However, the thread ceases to be useful if posters conduct ad hominems on third party entities not related to Logos. At worst, it could expose Logos to legal liability. At best, it turns the forums into something other than it was intended and drives business away.

P.S. the term "Protestant" was invented for the Lutherans IIRC - who use the broader canon. I am fond of precision - to a fault.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 172
Al Het | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 4 2018 3:03 PM

Jordan Litchfield:
Doc, for the reasons you give, I can understand your hesitation. However, the author is Candida Moss, a very highly respected NT scholar at Notre Dame.

Hmm.  I for one don't know who "very highly respects" Candida Moss as a scholar.  However, since you've commented here, I presume you know more about her than I do (very likely).  Having read a few of her articles in the past, MY sense is that she's a lot more concerned about religious politics than she is scholarship.

Moss regularly has articles in the Daily Beast, the Huff Post, and other secular, politically oriented sites.  Her articles seem primarily designed to elicit strong defensive responses from a couple of specific groups.  She does this with an edge, taking shots at the conservative side fairly consistently.  If responding to her articles in kind, she might be asked if an Evangelical Christian stole her bike when she was young, or conservative Catholics beat her up and took her lunch money or something.  That might capture the tone of the articles I've read.

Having said that, I have generally enjoyed reading the few articles I've come across.  I think some consider her mean or petty, but I don't think that is her intent.  She seems to have a clear agenda, but I suspect she tries to interject humor that sometimes gets misinterpreted as something more harsh.  Regardless, articles like these can show people how they are perceived, even if one disagrees with the basic premise. 

Also, the article the OP links to is the least snarky I've read of hers, and I find the crux of it pretty interesting.  Not sure how accurate her source is, but I imagine time will tell.

Posts 267
Roger Dittmar | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 4 2018 3:47 PM

Candida Moss - Anchor Yale Bible Reference Library resource https://www.logos.com/product/50325/ancient-christian-martyrdom-diverse-practices-theologies-and-traditions 

Posts 5248
Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 4 2018 3:48 PM

Denise:

In the tradition of discussion (and I use the NRSV and guess don't honor guy-dom and the Protestant traditions), it's not clear whether the apocrypha was held very high in the 2nd Temple period. It seems to have survived from its presumed Egyptian roots (LXX). Even Ecclesiasticus is a big question mark. They were still arguing over the prophets and writings.

We don’t know for certain, what is for sure is Paul quoted some apocryphal works and other NT authors did too indeed Jude goes beyond quoting Enoch which only the Ethiopian Church considers conanonical. Different Christian groups have very different views on scripture and how they are handled.... Going beyond that point is not likely wise. 

-dan

Posts 420
Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 4 2018 6:11 PM

MJ. Smith:

Paul:
Perhaps that's a good reason for believers to stay away from those mainline Protestant churches?  If they cannot honour the traditional Protestant canon of Scripture, then nothing is sacred to them.

Paul, this is exactly the type of comment that is not appropriate in the forums. If I were to respond in kind on behalf of the 1,801,000,000 or so Christian who utilize some form of a larger canon, it would cause an uproar. You need not hide your beliefs, but on the forums you must also respect the beliefs of the other 2,420,000,000 Christians in the world.

Phil Gons (Faithlife):

Please abide by the following guidelines as you interact on our forums.

  1. Please keep your discussions focused on Logos Bible Software: our software, products, websites, company, tools, etc.
  2. Please do not discuss or debate biblical, theological, or other controversial topics. Use one of the many web forums intended for these kinds of discussions.
  3. Please treat each other with the love, courtesy, respect, and kindness that you would if you were sitting in your living room together.
  4. Please do not use our forums to
    • sell or give away anything or link to anything you’re selling or giving away—including Logos products
    • promote or link to competitors
    • point people to other places that sell Logos-compatible products
    • advertise yourself, your business, your ministry, your website, etc. (a tasteful link in your forum signature is acceptable)
    • post Logos Coupon Codes. If you are aware of a special promotion Logos is running online, you are welcome to link directly to the promotion.
  5. Please search before posting. It’s likely that someone has already asked your question.
  6. Please help others follow these guidelines. If the problems continue after you’ve given a gentle reminder of these expectations, please click “Report Abuse” under “More” or send an email to forums@logos.com.

Thank you for your cooperation. Enjoy discussing and learning about Logos Bible Software.

which is why Lee posted a gentle reminder

Lee:

I would like to weigh in with a personal opinion. I am motivated not only by this thread but others I've read this past year.

The original post, I thought to be off-topic, but potentially germane to Logos. Having read that article, my takeaway was to watch out for new info or works on this issue, preferably in Logos, if not by some other source.

However, the thread ceases to be useful if posters conduct ad hominems on third party entities not related to Logos. At worst, it could expose Logos to legal liability. At best, it turns the forums into something other than it was intended and drives business away.

P.S. the term "Protestant" was invented for the Lutherans IIRC - who use the broader canon. I am fond of precision - to a fault.

MJ - It's certainly not my intention to cause hurt to anyone and I apologise if my remark took on that tone. I suspect that if I explain where I'm coming from then it is likely that I will compound my mistake and act contrary to your interpretation of forum rules. So I will make no further remarks on the issue of the canon on this thread. 

Just as a broader observation - I was expressing a commonly held among many conservative evangelical believers. It would be no surprise people like myself have great difficulty with some of the views (even so called 'scholarly' ones) that have become widely prevalent in the church. It seems that expressing them can also sometimes be a problem. Keep well Paul     

Posts 4911
DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 4 2018 7:32 PM

Life on the forums mirrors life in the real world. It’s acceptable to say you hold to a wider definition of a topic but if you say you hold to a narrower definition it’s deemed unacceptable to express it.

Posts 26263
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 4 2018 8:07 PM

Paul:
Just as a broader observation - I was expressing a commonly held among many conservative evangelical believers. It would be no surprise people like myself have great difficulty with some of the views (even so called 'scholarly' ones) that have become widely prevalent in the church. It seems that expressing them can also sometimes be a problem.

I understand why you say that. However, the intent of the Logos guidelines is not to muzzle you in that sense. Rather, it is appropriate to say

"Evangelicals generally believe the use of the ecumenical Bibles dishonours the traditional 'Protestant' canon of Scripture." quotes on Protestant to indicate it is an over-generalization.

vs.

"Stay away from Mainline Protestant churches that use of ecumenical Bibles dishonours the traditional 'Protestant' canon of Scripture."

The first statement is a statement of fact that explains the evangelical position to those on the forum who are not evangelical. The second says "I know what is right and you better get in line ... and don't try to present a different position because that would be dishonoring the Scripture ... shut up and get in line."

Shall we say it is a matter of humility ... on any issue under dispute there is a chance that it is the writer who is wrong .... whether the probability that it is the writer is wrong is 0.01% or 99.99%.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 420
Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 5 2018 3:15 AM

MJ. Smith:

Paul:
Just as a broader observation - I was expressing a commonly held among many conservative evangelical believers. It would be no surprise people like myself have great difficulty with some of the views (even so called 'scholarly' ones) that have become widely prevalent in the church. It seems that expressing them can also sometimes be a problem.

I understand why you say that. However, the intent of the Logos guidelines is not to muzzle you in that sense. Rather, it is appropriate to say

"Evangelicals generally believe the use of the ecumenical Bibles dishonours the traditional 'Protestant' canon of Scripture." quotes on Protestant to indicate it is an over-generalization.

vs.

"Stay away from Mainline Protestant churches that use of ecumenical Bibles dishonours the traditional 'Protestant' canon of Scripture."

The first statement is a statement of fact that explains the evangelical position to those on the forum who are not evangelical. The second says "I know what is right and you better get in line ... and don't try to present a different position because that would be dishonoring the Scripture ... shut up and get in line."

Shall we say it is a matter of humility ... on any issue under dispute there is a chance that it is the writer who is wrong .... whether the probability that it is the writer is wrong is 0.01% or 99.99%.

MJ - I think you've overstated what I did write. Unfortunately, you may think that I meant far more than I did. 

My take on what you have said is essentially that if I express something in neutral terms then its fairly acceptable, but if I state something I actually believe in personal terms then that risks upsetting someone and preferably should not be expressed.

Also, it seems you may believe that it is a question of humility for me to accept that on an issue of faith that I may be wrong so I should avoid being definite about what I believe is true.

Would that be a fair message for me to take home?  Keep well Paul      

Posts 1388
Rick Ausdahl | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 5 2018 5:27 AM

Gordon Jones:

Candida Moss has published an article on new discoveries about who translated, and how they translated, the King James Version.

www.thedailybeast.com/bible-loved-by-christian-fundamentalists-written-using-method-they-hate?

All in all, I've found this to be a very interesting discussion.  I was raised on the KJV (in church and at home) and by a father who instinctively and seamlessly switched to KJV vernacular when praying and back to our current vernacular when finished.  And while I remember there being a lot more of a sense of reverence for the KJV than for other translations, it was my impression that it was due more to the beauty and poetical tone of it which many people also felt aided memorization, rather than to a KJV only mindset.

I also recall the simple concern that using a translation other than the KJV when reading scripture in church might prove distracting as so many people at the time only had one translation to follow along with during the reading, and of course what they had was the good old KJV.  In comparison, the church I've now attended for many years, projects all scripture readings to the congregation via display screens, and it's very common for the speaker to use three, four, or even five different translations of scripture as he/she moves through his/her message.

I had never heard of Candida Moss prior to reading this thread, but regardless of her style or intent, I found the content of the article interesting and look forward to reading responses from the academic community.

Posts 3173
Whyndell Gizzard | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 5 2018 5:48 AM

True, true- I have read better articles standing in the checkout line at the local grocer, and to that did everyone know OJ Simpson is pregnant again. Surprise

Posts 10115
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 5 2018 7:10 AM

I think folks are getting mixed up, on this thread.

Evangelical? You're supposed to whack the KJVOnly group, since they're both too conservative, and illogical

KJV'ers? You're supposed to question why the thread was introduced; is it attacking the KJV yet again?

Guys? You're supposed to make sure the lady is of course not well read, or wrong in some fashion; choose.

Apocryphers? I don't remember if there's any forum history here, for guidance. New territory to develop.


Posts 2811
Doc B | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 5 2018 7:35 AM

Paul:
but if I state something I actually believe in personal terms then that risks upsetting someone and preferably should not be expressed

I don't think that's true.

But if it is, I would find that kind of rule much more offensive than an atheist screaming blasphemies at me.

Paul:
on an issue of faith that I may be wrong so I should avoid being definite about what I believe is true.

That's one of the best definitions/descriptions of our postmodern culture I've seen in a while. The outcomes of that kind of thinking, if allowed to bloom, will be nightmarish.

But again, I don't *think* that's what MJ is trying to say. I *think* she's simply asking you to be definite in a kind tone of voice. I didn't personally find the tone objectionable, but she clearly did.

Now we've stumbled upon one of the big problems of those forum rules, haven't we?

My thanks to the various MVPs. Without them Logos would have died early. They were the only real help available.

Faithlife Corp. owes the MVPs free resources for life.

Page 2 of 3 (49 items) < Previous 1 2 3 Next > | RSS