Zondervan on Logos!!!!!
Comments
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Matthew,
Thanks for pointing this out to me. I skimmed the blog and I had sticker shock at the price! I have over 1200 resources in Logos and I'm pretty sure that all together they have not cost me $2000. I hope Zondervan will make it easy to migrate my Pradis resources to Logos. I certainly can't afford to pay three times what I purchased them for originally!
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I already have some of it in Pradis, but will be buying it for Logos as I need it.
-Jacob
Jacob Hantla
Pastor/Elder, Grace Bible Church
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Glad to see Zondervan in Logos, its a start. But 2K, think not have all the resources listed in paper or another format, I'll keep my $, but lots a luck to you.
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Zondervan as quoted by Daniel --
Daniel DeVilder said:No, we will not be selling the same library collections or all of the same titles. A number of previous titles will be carried over into the Logos format. But we will include new titles that never appeared in Pradis such as The Zondervan Encyclopedia of the Bible and the Zondervan Illustrated Bible Backgrounds Commentary: Old Testament. Other notable releases include resources by Gordon Fee, Tremper Longman III, Scot McKnight, William Mounce, and others. A complete listing of the Zondervan titles coming to Logos Bible Software, as well as a link to pre-order, can be found at http://www.logos.com/zondervan.
Funny how my Zondervan Bible Reference Library Scholar's Edition in Pradis 5.0 has The Zondervan Pictorial Bible Encyclopedia. I guess it is different from the Zondervan Encyclopedia of the Bible. [8-)] News to me.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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I have a fairly sizable investment in Z/Pradis. Since the cost and availability of converting my current titles over to Logos is up in the air, I am going to download and hang on to the latest Pradis engine update ... before it disappears... just in case I need it later on.
http://www.zondervan.com/Cultures/en-US/Product/Software/PRADIS.htm?QueryStringSite=Zondervan
Instead of Artificial Intelligence, I prefer to continue to rely on Divine Intelligence instructing my Natural Dullness (Ps 32:8, John 16:13a)
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Thanks for the link!
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Matthew C Jones said:
Funny how my Zondervan Bible Reference Library Scholar's Edition in Pradis 5.0 has The Zondervan Pictorial Bible Encyclopedia. I guess it is different from the Zondervan Encyclopedia of the Bible.
News to me.Matthew,
the Zondervan Encyclopedia of the Bible is the revised edition of Zondervan Pictorial Bible Encyclopedia
Alain
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Matthew C Jones said:
Zondervan as quoted by Daniel --
Daniel DeVilder said:No, we will not be selling the same library collections or all of the same titles. A number of previous titles will be carried over into the Logos format. But we will include new titles that never appeared in Pradis such as The Zondervan Encyclopedia of the Bible and the Zondervan Illustrated Bible Backgrounds Commentary: Old Testament. Other notable releases include resources by Gordon Fee, Tremper Longman III, Scot McKnight, William Mounce, and others. A complete listing of the Zondervan titles coming to Logos Bible Software, as well as a link to pre-order, can be found at http://www.logos.com/zondervan.
Funny how my Zondervan Bible Reference Library Scholar's Edition in Pradis 5.0 has The Zondervan Pictorial Bible Encyclopedia. I guess it is different from the Zondervan Encyclopedia of the Bible.
News to me.Zondervan lists these as two separate books, The Pictorial encyclopedia is much smaller (864 pages vs 5616 pages)and about $100 cheaper. The specs look similar to material that will be included in the GLO bible. The one listed in Prepub is the newer, larger version. Prepub for this is about the same price as the paper version. This is not available in PRADIS. (sorry for the long Quote, I'm still trying to figure our how to shorten these up on the forum)
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MikeWaterhouse said:
sorry for the long Quote, I'm still trying to figure our how to shorten these up on the forum
Mike,
To shorten the quote, you simply select the portion which you wish to quote and then hit the "Quote" link. Voila'
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Damian McGrath said:MikeWaterhouse said:
sorry for the long Quote, I'm still trying to figure our how to shorten these up on the forum
Mike,
To shorten the quote, you simply select the portion which you wish to quote and then hit the "Quote" link. Voila'
Thanks, in some ways the old newsgroup software was easier to use.
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So what do you think this announcement from Logos and Zondervan more broadly means for the Christian eBook file format war? Is the standard more likely now to gravitate around Logos?
Bill
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WilliamAAnderson said:
So what do you think this announcement from Logos and Zondervan more broadly means for the Christian eBook file format war? Is the standard more likely now to gravitate around Logos?
Bill
I'm not sure there is a file format war. Nobody is trying to create a cross-platform standard anymore. Publishers just want a delivery platform that has a good audience. Pradis was never in the game since it existed solely to publish Zondervan works. All other publishers went to Logos or WordSearch or Bibleworks according to their goals (at least for Windows). My impression is that each of those products has a different target market (both for users and publishers), and they will continue to serve those markets.
MacBook Pro (2019), ThinkPad E540
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MikeWaterhouse said:
Zondervan lists these as two separate books, The Pictorial encyclopedia is much smaller (864 pages vs 5616 pages)and about $100 cheaper.
Why thank you very much Mike. I really did not know that. I have always valued the ZPBE (got in in Pradis and hardback) and if the new one is anything like it and BIGGER, that is worth buying in Logos in my view. Thanks for educating me.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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I am not surprised this day has come. Zondervan had a bad marketing plan doing their own software for just their books. That was not too bright... but in a down ecconomy the light-bulb has turned on for them.Todd Phillips said:Pradis was never in the game since it existed solely to publish Zondervan works.
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As far as I can see, the individual collections and 22 single books listed in the overall bundle come to $2161.69. That's only $162.69 more than you would pay for the bundle. I think I'll stick with the individual items that I might use - and is the price likely to increase from here???
Longtime Logos user (more than $30,000 in purchases) - now a second class user because I won't pay them more every month or year.
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Personally, I think Zondervan is too concerned with making money, vs. trying to get these resources out into the hands of the people that could really use them.
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That's my situation as well. I'm using the EBC in STEP format because the upgrade to Pradis costs $60 (plus another $60 for shipping to France!). Now I see that the Logos standard price is over $460. Even the sale price ($130) is more expensive than the Pradis price of $125.
I do have the Pradis Greek/Hebrew collection, and those books aren't even mentioned in the Logos package.
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Derek said:
Personally, I think Zondervan is too concerned with making money, vs. trying to get these resources out into the hands of the people that could really use them.
Zondervan is owned by HarperCollins, which is owned by News Corporation, which in turn is mostly owned by Rupert Murdoch. So I'm pretty sure that it's all about the money.
"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."
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Yeah, I think they've been getting little hints along the way that everyone suffers from a format war. I signed on to the Pradis thru a few strange twists, and have recently started getting into Libronix... I have their Scholar's library and EBC. Pradis had a nice system of panes and tabs, but my Expositor's Bible Commentary 5.1 never worked properly--the footnotes had to be scrolled to at the end, and had worked far better in my earlier STEP compatible Zondervan collection...so you were wise to hold out.
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I have the Pradis 5.1...running on the 6.0 engine....the footnotes do not pull up in the dependent books-footnotes...have to be scrolled to at the end, or else run a separate instance of EBC to view them...you didn't miss much. I don't know much about LOGOS's pricing vs. their pre-pub. Do they normally hold to such inflated prices $460? I think you can get the hardbound cheaper!
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Scott,
I had the STEP compatible EBC and the Pradis 5.1 EBC, and because the footnotes were set up improperly on Pradis, to this day I use the earlier Zondervan Reference Software/STEP compatible version much more.
Like you, I look forward to a new incarnation of this and all Zondervan's software they wish to publish.
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Group: Sorry these are all coming up together in a very redundant fashion....I thought they would post next to the discussions for which I hit the "reply" button.
I've been using a small Libronix library for a month or so, (Nelson's Deluxe eBible-which I planned as a precursor to a LOGOS package), and am starting to get a glimpse of LOGOS, even with no real original language features, and see how powerful it is, and how Zondervan's move to the Libronix DLS is long overdue...But I would like to say this about Pradis...I did like a few features of that engine and know Libronix is capable of incorporating changes...I read the History Page of this website...would like to see LOGOS recursively benefit from Pradis's retirement by acquiring rights to these features from Zondervan...
First off was Pradis's system of Panes and Tabs so that many open books could be packed on the interface without ever losing one in the background. The customized colors for the seperate panes was also refreshing. When the main window was minimized or resized, the panes responded flawlessly by respectively restoring to their previous sizes, or resizing proportionally.
On Libronix 3.0f, even when carefully cascading open works, there is much wasted space, and switching between tightly-packed works can be tedious. Also, once the main window is minimized, all the books that were so carefully arranged are cookie-cutter resized when the main window is restored or resized.
Secondly, when it worked properly (the EBC 5.1 notwithstanding), the "open dependent books"-right and -below was nice for things like NIV cross reference (right) and textual footnotes (below) to open in the same window as the associated text.
Would love to hear that Libronix is considering salvaging the "redeeming features" of this now doomed format, I think the entire community would benefit from it.
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development costs are more for Logos, I would assume.
I too liked the Pradis tab system, as well as the ability to customize background colors and fonts.
But aside from the content itself, I have little good to say about my Pradis/Zondervan experience. There was a nice guy named Alane (I think) working in tech, and another girl that was helpful, but most of the time I wondered if there was only one guy working for them in support AND development. software had multiple bugs, installation was frequently a hassle experience, support often didn't follow up to my requests, the website was woefully out of date (content, etc) and very clunky to get around . . . I cringed every time I went there.Now as far as the types of books Z offers: fantastic! But good riddance Pradis. Totally pumped about the Libronix format they are going to.
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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Anthony Grubb said:
Would love to hear that Libronix is considering salvaging the "redeeming features" of this now doomed format, I think the entire community would benefit from it.
how easy that would be to "salvage" them is something I don't know. They would probably have to build the respective capability from scratch. But I like the idea. You have described in greater detail what I DID like about Pradis. I have suggested some of those things in the past (about 3 years ago). At that time the response from higher up was "thank you for your suggestion" but I could tell that colored panes et al didn't seem worthy of all the work. Probably the difference between how an engineer looks at something vs. someone who is more artistically inclined. What I liked about colored panes besides the visual pleasure was that I could associate certain works with certain background colors which allowed my eye and brain to travel to them more quickly. (I will say that Pradis 6 seemed to mess that up somehow. It does not work as well or consistently as it did at first, regarding pane color)
What i don't like about Logos (and there is a MOUNTAIN of stuff that I DO like and love!) is what you described regarding the panes. Even though you can pull down the "window" tab, and search for a pane, that is clunky and frequently I find windows hiding behind other windows. The tabbing system at the bottom is a good start, but even it lets things fall through the cracks (unlike the Windows operation system tabs themselves, which groups and shows all open windows regardless of what size, minimized or restored). I also found that the "table of contents" space would resize itself and NOT stay at the same 'width" as I had left it--even if the window itself had not been resized. Although a resizing of the window should make no difference--if I have the toc open at a 1" width, it should stay that way..
Not hyper critical. just observations.
I love Logos.I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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Todd Phillips said:
I'm not sure there is a file format war. Nobody is trying to create a cross-platform standard anymore. Publishers just want a delivery platform that has a good audience. Pradis was never in the game since it existed solely to publish Zondervan works. All other publishers went to Logos or WordSearch or Bibleworks according to their goals (at least for Windows). My impression is that each of those products has a different target market (both for users and publishers), and they will continue to serve those markets.
As to whether or not there was a format war, and whether or not Zondervan had attempted to provide a cross-platform, I can provide some insight here from an email I got about 3-4 years ago from one of the Zondervan VP's. Pradis wasn't considered proprietary by Zondervan (although LOGOS openly uses that verbage here, and perhaps Zondervan has finally conceded that it was), they did try to license it to other publishers, just as Libronix is licensed out. He sent me a link to another publisher that was using Pradis, when I looked at it I recall it was something related to computer sciences--apparently they were pleased with Pradis' compression algorithms and decided to give it a whirl. Zondervan was unhappy with some of the developments when they had earlier released titles in a STEP compatible format-I'm not sure if piracy was the issue, or having their hands tied as format development flagged...seems like these both were mentioned, I'm sure the latter was...but we could all speculate they also wanted to solve the problem in a way where everyone would latch onto their format, and I think they did reason that to reduce the lost revenue from piracy, it would be helpful if consumers were paying for some portion of a Zondervan library (like Pradis). In any case, Zondervan's continued insistence on Pradis, for all its strengths and weaknesses, had the same result as any format war would: customers who dared to invest are now left with limited support and must investigate their investment's potential (are there any deals or rebates, etc.), those who held out were not able to use the products in their Libronix libraries. I think whatever interpretations we put on the past, I see a lot of relief that the promise of greater compatibility will benefit everyone, though there were a few Pradis features I know I'll miss if Libronix doesn't quickly pick them up.
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Daniel DeVilder said:
You have described in greater detail what I DID like about Pradis. I have suggested some of those things in the past (about 3 years ago). At that time the response from higher up was "thank you for your suggestion" but I could tell that colored panes et al didn't seem worthy of all the work. Probably the difference between how an engineer looks at something vs. someone who is more artistically inclined. What I liked about colored panes besides the visual pleasure was that I could associate certain works with certain background colors which allowed my eye and brain to travel to them more quickly. (I will say that Pradis 6 seemed to mess that up somehow. It does not work as well or consistently as it did at first, regarding pane color)
...
Not hyper critical. just observations.
I love Logos.I have to be careful agreeing with someone who has just agreed with me, we may get caught making "no effort to obtain the praise that comes from God" (Jn 5:44), or else leaving the rest of the forum disenfranchised. Yes, graphic orientation is a big key, that is why Windows grabbed mainstream computer users in a way that DOS never did! That is why grocery stores research how we perceive complex visual fields, and how they decide where and how to arrange products. Magazine layouts and advertizements are also subjected to these treatments. Pradis 6.0 did make it harder to work with pane color, and every color under the rainbow was never necessary in any case...but a tasteful touch of gray for the biblical text pane, a little beige over there for the dictionaires, some very light emerald for the original language helps, etc. was relaxing for the eyes when done properly. Like you say, there is lots to love about LOGOS, and not worth having personal issues over, but wouldn't it be nice...on the history page Bill talks about the times he has personally said "thanks for the suggestion," and I know with thousands of dollars going into salaries for each little development scheme, not every customer whim can be worthy of the investment of time and development...but as much as I like some of the things we search around for in the menus on Libronix (like harmonies, parallel passage views, etc.), I would appreciate so much more an updated user interface!
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Anthony Grubb said:
I know with thousands of dollars going into salaries for each little development scheme, not every customer whim can be worthy of the investment of time and development...
right on, and that is where we as customers often fail: it is easy to be the critic, but we need to temper our anger a bit when we don't know the behind the scenes issues. That is the case often, whether it is the anger toward the waitress for late food (her fault? cooks fault? food delivery? etc) or anger toward the preacher's sermon (always funny how the SAME sermon can be both "too biblical" and too "fluffy", too boring and yet "very inspired.")
But don't give them excuses to not offer the "rainbow". Doggonit, I LIKE the rainbow!
3.0 was a HUGE upgrade over 2.1. I can only hope and imagine 4.0 (due out sometime in 2030 . . . .) will be even better. But I do agree with you that there are some features I would leave off in favor of a bit more visual appeal (like the biblical persons . . . maybe I just haven't figured out how to apply it well. there are a few others, too, that seem to have a good idea, but I really don't use them enough)
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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This is not the LOGOS pricing, it is Zondervan's pricing. They are setting their own prices.KevinStock said:Now I see that the Logos standard price is over $460
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No, this is not the normal way pre-pub offers look. Zondervan is still setting their own prices. My guess is that it was a condition of their willingness to make their stuff available on Logos format. They wanted to keep control of as much as possible and that included price.Anthony Grubb said:I don't know much about LOGOS's pricing vs. their pre-pub. Do they normally hold to such inflated prices $460?
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Joe Miller said:
No, this is not the normal way pre-pub offers look. Zondervan is still setting their own prices. My guess is that it was a condition of their willingness to make their stuff available on Logos format. They wanted to keep control of as much as possible and that included price.
If you look at the Tyndale Commentaries, they are listed the same way. It's not a classic prepub, but rather a "pre-order".
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I found this on Zondervan's FAQ site about the Pradis/Logos transition:
"When will the Zondervan Logos products be available for download?
"Answer: The new software will become available in early 2010."
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JRS said:
I have a fairly sizable investment in Z/Pradis. Since the cost and availability of converting my current titles over to Logos is up in the air, I am going to download and hang on to the latest Pradis engine update ... before it disappears... just in case I need it later on.
http://www.zondervan.com/Cultures/en-US/Product/Software/PRADIS.htm?QueryStringSite=Zondervan
Thanks for the linke and suggestion. Great idea and I've done the same.
Dr. Kevin Purcell, Director of Missions
Brushy Mountain Baptist Association0 -
Kevin A. Purcell said:JRS said:
I have a fairly sizable investment in Z/Pradis. Since the cost and availability of converting my current titles over to Logos is up in the air, I am going to download and hang on to the latest Pradis engine update ... before it disappears... just in case I need it later on.
http://www.zondervan.com/Cultures/en-US/Product/Software/PRADIS.htm?QueryStringSite=Zondervan
Thanks for the linke and suggestion. Great idea and I've done the same.
I did the same about a month ago when I found the update after looking everywhere in the maze that is their website.
I really hope and pray that Zondervan will not make us re-buy the resources, I have too much invested in Pradis to fork the same amount of money or more just to switch format.
I am still waiting for Zondervan’s Digital Resources email newletter and the details about the "discount" for current owners
Alain
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Alain Maashe said:
I am still waiting for Zondervan’s Digital Resources email newletter and the details about the "discount" for current owners
Alain
I personally don't expect it for another couple months. Early 2010 will be the earliest those resources are released. My guess is next summer (maybe late Spring)
What do I base my timeline on? An uneducated guess . . .
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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I have many "musts" among the Zondervan titles in the prepub list. There is one title however I would like to aks about since I am not sure what is the real value of the book. I am asking about the New International Encyclopedia of Bible Words http://www.logos.com/products/prepub/details/5419 What is your opinion on that book? Is it good and useful for studying about some key words of the Bible? Thanks. What would be the better alternative?
Bohuslav
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Bohuslav Wojnar said:
I have many "musts" among the Zondervan titles in the prepub list. There is one title however I would like to aks about since I am not sure what is the real value of the book. I am asking about the New International Encyclopedia of Bible Words http://www.logos.com/products/prepub/details/5419 What is your opinion on that book? Is it good and useful for studying about some key words of the Bible? Thanks. What would be the better alternative?
You might consider TWOT for the OT and Spicq for the NT. Don't forget TDNT.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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George Somsel said:
You might consider TWOT.
Thanks George. I have TWOT and I use it. Just now I preached on the word Chesed from 2 Sam 9 (about Mephiboshet) and it is very good. Do you thing I would not gain any more insight with the Zondervan tool? What about Greek? Do we have something more recent than Kittel?
Bohuslav
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Bohuslav Wojnar said:George Somsel said:
You might consider TWOT.
Thanks George. I have TWOT and I use it. Just now I preached on the word Chesed from 2 Sam 9 (about Mephiboshet) and it is very good. Do you thing I would not gain any more insight with the Zondervan tool? What about Greek? Do we have something more recent than Kittel?
I haven't examined Zondervan's offering exhaustively, but what I saw didn't particularly impress me. The major problem in my mind is that it is organized in accordance with English words rather than the original languages which makes it dependent to some degree on which translation you use. I tend to like TDNT's approach of using the Greek and then bringing in OT words when appropriate. I think the same could be done in reverse.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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George Somsel said:
I haven't examined Zondervan's offering exhaustively, but what I saw didn't particularly impress me. The major problem in my mind is that it is organized in accordance with English words rather than the original languages which makes it dependent to some degree on which translation you use. I tend to like TDNT's approach of using the Greek and then bringing in OT words when appropriate. I think the same could be done in reverse.
Thank you George. I really appreciate your expertise on the original languages. Before I had Logos I used a lot Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary. Now I feel it is too old and I try to use TWOT and TDNT but it is too technical sometimes for just getting idea of the theological use of the word. More times I am helped by the commentaries, if they deal with particular word. Thank you again for your advice.
Bohuslav
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Daniel DeVilder said:
I personally don't expect it for another couple months. Early 2010 will be the earliest those resources are released. My guess is next summer (maybe late Spring)
What do I base my timeline on? An uneducated guess . . .
Dude, I like the way you think--so much so, in fact that I tried to find you on facebook.
An uneducated guess? You are being too modest. Sounds more like intuition from other scenes in the software world. I think it took Microsoft like 14mos. past initial projections to finally release what was finally named Windows 95, and similar stories abound. We'll see what Zonderan does, if the Lord taries...
Back in the time when I first got caught in this format war, while starting out trying to add a STEP compatible EBC to my Zondervan NIV Study Bible Complete, I ended up running into a brick wall for discontinued products, etc., and getting into Pradis, also researched LOGOS at the time. That was 4½ years ago. You can test me on this, at that time I started the wikipedia pages for, no joking, LOGOS, Pradis, and STEP Library! Pradis has been moved to the Zondervan article, but I think you can see it on the history of the others. Found my emails from that time. I was mistaken the other day about Pradis being used for some computer science work, it was Wayne Grudem's "Electronic Systematic Theology" in the Pradis format on www.bitsandbytescomputer.com -- just type "Pradis" in the search field. Looks like it was also released in Libronix and Olive tree formats--Good job!
Someone at Zondervan had mentioned another reason they themselves got away from STEP compatible products was that development had stalled greatly. Was doing some additional reading about STEP last night and learned it grew out of a consortium that LOGOS opted to not join. LOGOS evidentally has done quite a few things right, and I'm left wondering, "What was Zondervan thinking?" As time passed, I saw many of their own Pradis offerings disappear (i.e. NIV Life Application Commentary), instead of watching the collection grow. Now I haven't found this particular email, but when in my frustration, wanting to see my library expand and my Pradis investment make sense, I emailed them, asked about additional translations, one was "The Message" (which I don't really like now that I've had time to look at a few passages). Nevertheless, it's fairly popular. They responded, telling me it was licensed to someone else. Duh comes to mind, but I think that would be rude. Format wars usually are. And to win them, you have to work out licensing agreements (Zondervan may have finally learned this, but too late to do it themselves with the market share LOGOS has been awarded--if you can't beat 'em, join 'em is a good philosophy in the realm of software compatibility--even software that deals with spiritual implications!). In any case, even e-Sword offers "The Message" for a fee!
One last thing. I also asked about purchasing the New King James Version. They told that it was licensed to Thomas Nelson (I digress...), and that I was the only one to ask for it. This was like the summer of 2005. One thing I'm seeing in this forum is several of us had parallel dealings with Zondervan. That is just a little hard for me to believe. BTW, even e-Sword offers the NKJV for a fee!
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