Logos Staff: A Story to Give you something to think about

Page 3 of 11 (212 items) < Previous 1 2 3 4 5 Next > ... Last ยป
This post has 211 Replies | 10 Followers

Posts 809
Cynthia in Florida | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 22 2018 9:54 AM

DAL:

Even Software developers know deep inside that searches are not easy in Logos Bible Software! They’re in denial if they claim they are ๐Ÿคจ

They’re probably developed that way to create extra cash off of training for investors. I’m sure MP and Learn Logos must be giving FL a cut of their profits for showing others how to use Logos.  If that’s not the case then I’ll become a power user and then create my videos and sell them to the Spanish community to make money off of them ๐Ÿ‘๐Ÿ˜๐Ÿ‘Œ

I think valuable, constructive conversations go south when we start making asssumptions about things we don’t know for a fact or is none of our business. If we stick to facts, I believe FL WILL listen because they have proven to be a company that listens to their customers and wants  to fix this.  Only by sticking to the facts will we, and the staff of FL who are reading this, not have to swim through mud in order to actually see the valid concerns and thus, make positive changes that benefit us all. 

Cynthia

Romans 8:28-38

Posts 2049
Forum MVP
Reuben Helmuth | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 22 2018 10:44 AM

Cynthia in Florida:
I believe FL WILL listen because they have proven to be a company that listens to their customers and wants  to fix this

I agree. There's been lot's of talk (and "noise") about simplifying search, especially in the last year it feels like. I'm really hoping L8 will take a big step in this direction. Faithlife has proven time and again, that it's customers' concerns matter, and I'm sure search simplification is a serious consideration. If speculations hold on the release of L8, we could potentially have less than ~30 days to see whether this gets addressed. I've had some serious disappointments with FL, but I honestly (now) trust FL to do the right thing, further than I trust almost any other company.

In short: FL, I love Logos and want it to be used by as many believers as possible. I know you want that as well and I trust that you'll seriously consider making the software more approachable for beginners, without reducing its power for the serious/in-depth user.

Posts 6610
DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 22 2018 2:23 PM

Cynthia in Florida:

Lee:

Thanks Cynthia, for voicing out some of my thoughts.

I struggle most with the search functions. It's just cryptic. The B company nailed it.

Lee:  You and me both!  It is very frustrating...and as you said, cryptic.  Of all my frustrations in learning Logos, this is at the top of the list.

I thought you purchased the Advance Search video: https://www.logos.com/product/51655/verbum-advanced-search-training which came out a good while ago.

Bottom line, my last two cents. FL could provide the training, but if people don’t put in the time to learn then it’s all for naught. The point, though, Logos needs to be simplified a bit more. Not dumbed down, but simplified. And we all need to keep in mind that there is a learning curve for everything — even the simple things.

DAL

Posts 27059
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 22 2018 2:49 PM

DAL:
Even Software developers know deep inside that searches are not easy in Logos Bible Software!

The question is can anyone design a different interface that:

  • walks the user through formulating their question well (know what you really want)
  • is quick to use (the user doesn't get annoyed because they could type it in faster than going through building it)
  • retains the power of the current search
  • reads well (you know at a glance what a saved search does/minimizes jargon)
  • doesn't override the user by going with the most common request (see Google overriding book specification below)

Unfortunately, I have only seen incremental improvements suggested - not a full solution. Please, if someone has a comprehensive idea, throw it out here.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 781
scooter | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 22 2018 4:00 PM

MJ. Smith:
Unfortunately, I have only seen incremental improvements suggested - not a full solution. Please, if someone has a comprehensive idea, throw it out here.

I would love a Solution Builder like the one your bulle t points encapsulate.

With respect, it is FL's job to create a Solution Builder.  + do they wanna, really, really wanna...or not???

Its a conundrum that the people on these forums that might know how to solution-ate do not have to because they are power users.  They are, rightly so, busy using the product.

Its people like me who need the solution who do not have the vocab to talk about it, let alone come up with even a piece of the solution.

I phoned another Bible software provider Friday, + could not explain what I wanted in a manner the guy appreciated.  He used an arrogant tone with me, + I finally hung up.  I cannot solve FL's [thus far known] disinterest in simple + elegant, as I would have to use prototypes to check ease of use.  I have trouble enough talking to the cable provider, using words the listener can vibe.

Posts 27059
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 22 2018 4:19 PM

scooter:
With respect, it is FL's job to create a Solution Builder. 

I agree but only if it is possible which I am not sure it is. However, I believe the Bible Browser and the Morph Query Builder are evidence that Faithlife is well aware of the problem and is working on it.

It reminds me of a reporting requirement that the Washington State Legislature passed in the 1980's which was mathematically impossible to provide unless you knew the future. When we finally convinced the regulators that the bill requested the impossible, we figured out a way to generate numbers that looked good but were not accurate which the regulators understood they should ignore. The moral I took from that experience was "be sure what you are asking for is possible".

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 18013
Forum MVP
Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 22 2018 4:55 PM

Rosie Perera:
Logos is too complex for newbie users.

Right Click contextual menu is a bit too complex for all users. Design decision for Right Click to always show all searchable items in Logos/Verbum can be more annoying than useful for work flow. After selecting a line on the right side of Right Click, the Left Side has many sections sorted in alphabetical order.

Example frustration: older Logos versions (with fewer datasets) had a quick option for opening a Commentary using Right Click: Reference => Top 5 Bibles (with Commentary in Top 5 prioritized list). As more sections were added for Bible Reference, quick option has become quite tedious due to scrolling need past uninteresting sections. Apologies since personally do not share Bible Reference using social media so having that section (and others) ABOVE Top 5 has resulted into finding a different way to open Commentary for a verse using Explorer.

My desktop application dreams => https://community.logos.com/forums/p/148421/923667.aspx#923667 include

  • Contextual pop-up customization of Right and Left Hand sides: similar to Guides that allows section order to be rearranged as desired so dreaming of "My Contextual Right" and "My Contextual Left" guides with templates that could be edited. Guide metaphor has sections that appear when appropriate. Currently contextual pop-up has applicable sections shown in alphabetical order all the time.

A quick way for improving performance is avoiding unneeded effort. For example, at times want to see everything that Contextual menu can show. At other times only desire useful subset. Most days do not have use for Literary Typing, Genre tagging, Send to Proclaim, Share, .. so would appreciate Guide like option to not show them (or place more useful sections above them). Guides have performance option of section being closed, which would be helpful for contextual sections too.

Cynthia in Florida:
Until that happens, I have stopped recommending Logos to my students, which upsets me.  I want to recommend it, but I have some students who spent a good amount of money on Logos because of me, and then got so frustrated that they stopped using it, stating “google is easier.”

Curious about frustration example(s) ? Usage scenarios about student desires with frustration comments should be helpful for interface improvement.

Irony is Faithlife trying to mimic Google search with false positive results while being annoying from time to populate search suggestions (or previous search, factbook, ...). Related thread is => FRUSTRATED with Logos wasting my computer cycles

Personally dreaming about automatic search suggestion customization: e.g. for Languages with lemmas, show Lemma and Root suggestions while not showing word variant spellings (tedious to scroll past word variants for Lemma/Root suggestions).

Design challenge is what's intuitive for one user can be counter intuitive to another user.

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 10339
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 22 2018 6:25 PM

Cynthia in Florida:

Denise, can you explain for those of us who have no idea what you mean.  

A.  Is Logos8 out?  I’m a ”Nower” (again, money spent to make this program easier to figure out) and I didn’t see an upgrade.

B.  Who is Rick and what are you talking about with easy to use search datasets because of course, I would NEED that (not want...need).

C.  Competition in Florida?  Huh?

As always, wonderful trying to figure you out! LOL

Adding/expanding to Dave's comments:

A. L8 isn't yet out. I thought L8 was supposed to make Logos easier. But in theory, Now-ers already have L8 (L7 plus new features). So, a better user experience must be slated for L9 (possibly L13, hard to say).

Adding to 'A', Phil also said the web version gets the newest stuff, not desktop Logos. So, L13 may be a realistic prophesy.

B. As Dave noted, Rick Brannon seems driven to publish mucho datasets that few can use. Since Rick is smart, that makes me suspect an easy search is soon to arrive (contra 'A').

C. Florida is Accordance. Accordance has a smaller tighter software footprint, no longer competing with Bibleworks, and so can more quickly 'hit the numbers' than FL. Nimble-icity vs molassas-icity.

But overall, I can't believe after 10 years, Logos' answer to wide-spread user search incompetence, is to add some cookbook examples. Surely Rick hints at a major search enhancement?


Posts 27059
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 22 2018 6:59 PM

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):
Design decision for Right Click to always show all searchable items in Logos/Verbum can be more annoying than useful for work flow.

What is interesting to me is that this is primary reason I use the Context Menu - I use it in lieu of an information panel because it takes no space and I can easily find the information I want on the right hand side. Most of the time, I don't need to go somewhere or do something once I have the information. The difference in our usage is exactly what makes Faithlife's job hellacious.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 3270
Forum MVP
PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 22 2018 7:22 PM

Denise:
But in theory, Now-ers already have L8 (L7 plus new features).

Not every new feature in a major release gets pre-released. There were new features in L7.0 that Now subscribers didn't have early access to, and we should expect new features in L8.0 which haven't been pre-released.

Denise:
So, a better user experience must be slated for L9 (possibly L13, hard to say).

We have no idea what UX changes might or might not come in L8. But FL has known about this issue for a long time, and it wouldn't surprise me if they roll out some UX improvements in L8 (in addition to new features).

Denise:
Adding to 'A', Phil also said the web version gets the newest stuff, not desktop Logos. So, L13 may be a realistic prophesy.

New Atlas/Maps have already made it from the web to desktop Logos.

It does take longer for new stuff being rolled out on the web app to make it to the desktop, but we'll still get other new features before L9 ships. Phil has already said that the new notes system should be coming to the desktop (stable release) in 2019 (which should still be L8.x).

Denise:
I can't believe after 10 years, Logos' answer to wide-spread user search incompetence, is to add some cookbook examples.

The search learning curve is steep, and it takes time and experience to master it. Perhaps intimidation is a better word than incompetence?

One of the problems that you pointed out is that more and more datasets get added, requiring more parameters for "old" search (and more facets for Bible Browser). These added choices don't help UX, especially since many users generally aren't manually searching these newer datasets. (It would be interesting to see which ones were "popular," and which ones don't get much use.)

I think we all agree that if the learning curve could be flattened out a lot, more people should be able to accomplish more, without being overwhelmed by the apparent complexity and obscurity.

Posts 27059
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 22 2018 7:25 PM

Denise, Denise, Denise ...

You said

Denise:
B. As Dave noted, Rick Brannon seems driven to publish mucho datasets that few can use.

While Dave said

Dave Hooton:

Rick Brannan (Faithlife) provides regular news on coming Dataset Updates. You might gather that datasets are not actually "easy to use" in searches!

You may note the omission of the qualification "in searches" - I agree wholeheartedly with Dave on this and often use a shortcut to avoid it. However, I find the datasets easy to use in other contexts - interactives, Bible Browser, Context Menu, Information Panel ....

However, my cool trick so I don't have to know much to use the datasets in a Search (which reminds me of a request I need to make). First, use the Bible browser facets to find the passages you need to exam. For my example I'm trying to identify miracles of healing by Jesus where John was present. So my text to search is miracles of healing by Jesus:

I save the results as a Passage List and go to a standard Bible search. I limit my search to the Passage List. I type <Person John and wait for autocomplete to help me identify the right John. I hit enter and voila! eureka! woozee! Pretty cool, right? And I didn't need to know any of the complex dataset syntax. [Yes, I know it is imprecise as not all healing miracle by Jesus begin and end on a verse boundary. But I can live with that.]

Editted:

Because the John term could have been chosen in the Bible Browser as well, here is an example that requires the Search function as well - the phrase "at once" in healing miracles of Jesus.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 3270
Forum MVP
PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 22 2018 7:27 PM

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):
A quick way for improving performance is avoiding unneeded effort. For example, at times want to see everything that Contextual menu can show. At other times only desire useful subset. Most days do not have use for Literary Typing, Genre tagging, Send to Proclaim, Share, .. so would appreciate Guide like option to not show them (or place more useful sections above them). Guides have performance option of section being closed, which would be helpful for contextual sections too.

Excellent suggestion!

Posts 3270
Forum MVP
PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 22 2018 7:49 PM

MJ. Smith:
I save the results as a Passage List and go to a standard Bible search. I limit my search to the Passage List.

I love your tips, MJ! This is cool.

Do you consider this tip a power-user technique? Would a "newish" user think of (making then) searching a passage list?

If FL could simplify everything, so a 4-step process like this could be done in a couple of steps, it might make it more memorable.

It's not that the software can't do something. It's that we need to recall the myriad of techniques, features, and tools available to us.

Speaking personally, Bible Browser is out-of-sight, thus out-of-mind for me. It would make searching easier, yet when I consider "search," my thought is  "click search icon to open search bar," not "open Tools and select Bible Browser."

Posts 27059
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 22 2018 8:31 PM

PetahChristian:

If FL could simplify everything, so a 4-step process like this could be done in a couple of steps, it might make it more memorable.

It's not that the software can't do something. It's that we need to recall the myriad of techniques, features, and tools available to us.

SUGGESTION: A quick upgrade to the Search function ... as per another thread

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 809
Cynthia in Florida | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 23 2018 4:02 AM

DAL:

Cynthia in Florida:

Lee:

Thanks Cynthia, for voicing out some of my thoughts.

I struggle most with the search functions. It's just cryptic. The B company nailed it.

Lee:  You and me both!  It is very frustrating...and as you said, cryptic.  Of all my frustrations in learning Logos, this is at the top of the list.

I thought you purchased the Advance Search video: https://www.logos.com/product/51655/verbum-advanced-search-training which came out a good while ago.

Bottom line, my last two cents. FL could provide the training, but if people don’t put in the time to learn then it’s all for naught. The point, though, Logos needs to be simplified a bit more. Not dumbed down, but simplified. And we all need to keep in mind that there is a learning curve for everything — even the simple things.

DAL

DAL:  I did purchase the training, along with MP’s manuals/videos and LearnLogos training as well. I watched Mark’s unofficial videos and have watched every single Logos training video. I have used the wiki site, screen shot and saved MP’s training snippets.  You name it, it it’s out there, I’ve read it.  I have spent COUNTLESS hours in “training.” So, to say that if people don’t put in the time to learn then it’s all for naught is a moot point, nor is it the main point of this thread, although it proves my point.   The point here, as per my original post, is that while I personally have done that, most average users won’t nor can’t because of time/money, nor should they have to.  While I understand that all software requires SOME training, it shouldn’t be SO MUCH TRAINING just to use the program for what should be (in the user’s mind) the most basic functions.  The ease of use is not the responsibility of the user, but the developer.  It shouldn’t fall on the user that they don’t know what is a dataset string, that they need a dataset string, that they need the correctly ordered dataset string, just to search something in their library.  So in my mind, this isn’t about FL offering MORE training.  It’s about FL making the software more intuitive and then offering short video snippets as hotkeys for those functions that need some explaining.

Cynthia

Romans 8:28-38

Posts 809
Cynthia in Florida | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 23 2018 4:17 AM

MJ. Smith:

PetahChristian:

If FL could simplify everything, so a 4-step process like this could be done in a couple of steps, it might make it more memorable.

It's not that the software can't do something. It's that we need to recall the myriad of techniques, features, and tools available to us.

SUGGESTION: A quick upgrade to the Search function ... as per another thread

Petah and MJ:  This is WONDERFUL!  Thank you. 

MJ, that search trick is fantastic.  Like Petah, I never would have thought to do that, but I’m saving that.  Thanks for all you contribute!

Cynthia

Romans 8:28-38

Posts 59
Bill | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 23 2018 5:59 AM

Cynthia in Florida:
 I did purchase the training, along with MP’s manuals/videos and LearnLogos training as well. I watched Mark’s unofficial videos and have watched every single Logos training video. I have used the wiki site, screen shot and saved MP’s training snippets.  You name it, it it’s out there, I’ve read it.  I have spent COUNTLESS hours in “training.” So, to say that if people don’t put in the time to learn then it’s all for naught is a moot point, nor is it the main point of this thread, although it proves my point.   The point here, as per my original post, is that while I personally have done that, most average users won’t nor can’t because of time/money, nor should they have to.  While I understand that all software requires SOME training, it shouldn’t be SO MUCH TRAINING just to use the program for what should be (in the user’s mind) the most basic functions.  The ease of use is not the responsibility of the user, but the developer.  It shouldn’t fall on the user that they don’t know what is a dataset string, that they need a dataset string, that they need the correctly ordered dataset string, just to search something in their library.  So in my mind, this isn’t about FL offering MORE training.  It’s about FL making the software more intuitive and then offering short video snippets as hotkeys for those functions that need some explaining.

BINGO!! Thank you and well stated! But as MJ said "is it possible?" Maybe FL isn't able, at this time, to tame the monster they have created. It would be reassuring though if we heard directly from FL some specifics of what they are doing and trying in order to solve this problem, knowing how they are working on it, rather than asking users like us how to fix it or spend more and more unproductive time and money on learning how to use it. That, at least for me, would be somewhat reassuring that they are seriously working on it. But, there is mostly only silence so far.

I love the software when it works for me,but hate it when I have to work for it.Big Smile

Posts 781
scooter | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 23 2018 6:15 AM

Bill:

BINGO!! Thank you and well stated! But as MJ said "is it possible?" Maybe FL isn't able, at this time, to tame the monster they have created. It would be reassuring though if we heard directly from FL some specifics of what they are doing and trying in order to solve this problem, knowing how they are working on it, rather than asking users like us how to fix it or spend more and more unproductive time and money on learning how to use it. That, at least for me, would be somewhat reassuring that they are seriously working on it. But, there is mostly only silence so far.

I love the software when it works for me,but hate it when I have to work for it

I agree with your statements, Bill...………….. To modify a statement that's out there: simp[lify] my ride, so I can get it in gear.  I don't have to build the trani, just get in and steer.

Posts 10339
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 23 2018 7:00 AM

MJ. Smith:

Denise, Denise, Denise ...

I'm sorry but there's only two of me. Smiling.

Frankly (and no intent to disparage FL), I've given up on most of Logos. I make heavy use of linked resources (but miss a leader link). CitedBy is why I'd never give up Logos. And re-titling/tagging in the library. Multiview is nice for commentaries. 

Searches are silly. You can't group relative to your tags or collections. I don't waste time on the syntax ... easier to use a control-F the hard way. And searches take forever (they take so much time formatting results so poorly). Katie bar the door if a major mistake ... I have to kill the program ... no interupts. This after 10 years.

When L5 came out, I 'thought' FL had a free field to take over Bible software. But years later, a feature here, another there. Sleepy times at Bellingham High. No apparent strategy. Then the web repeats the slumbering design. Opportunities missed, or a different vision.


Posts 46
Dan Starcevich | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 23 2018 9:44 AM

Logos does themselves a disservice by not providing a comprehensive training manual or on-line training with the product.  It is a robust, powerful product.  I have been using it since 2009 and use it every day.  The learning curve is steep and growing as new tagging, features, and resources are added.  The way to address the learning curve is through training.  

I have been in a position to not only invest in Logos and my Logos library, but also in training.  Not everyone is so fortunate.  I think most have to make choices between investing in Logos and investing in training.  If the product came with a great user manual or video training they would address the learning curve, expand their market, and encourage current users to expand their libraries in order to take better advantage of the platform.

Just sayin,

Dan

Page 3 of 11 (212 items) < Previous 1 2 3 4 5 Next > ... Last ยป | RSS