Logos Staff: A Story to Give you something to think about

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This post has 211 Replies | 10 Followers

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PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 27 2018 8:04 AM

Dave Hooton:
I see bad suggestions in Search panel "help", bad parameters like "Match equivalent preferences" in the menu, hidden (but documented) [Match ] parameters for the Find box and too much information for 'dataset' searches in the Context menu (should be user controlled). Probably more, but I don't have the time.

Thank you, Dave, for bringing attention to those issues!

I stumbled across one of the bad suggestions in search panel "help", last night.

Help suggests "{Speaker <Person Jesus>} {Addressee <Place Jerusalem>}" but the wiki suggests using {...} WITHIN {...}.

This produces two different results.

I think the omission of an operator between two search extensions puts an unnecessary burden on the user to know which default operator is being used.

Personally, I have no clue. Is it AND? WITHIN? NEAR? INTERSECTS?

The only way I could find out for certain (on my own, without having to ask) is trial-and-error, to see which operator happens to produce the same results. Yet that's not without its risks. Two different searches might just happen to produce the same results.

I think this illustrates why some of us need to visibly see the operators that the program is using for cases like this. Without that information being visible/known, we run into situations where the program isn't necessarily performing the same search that we think it is doing.

"The program is searching for exactly what you told it to," seems inadequate, because the far-less-knowledgeable of us are obligated to guess or remember or research what the search is actually doing.

(I think it's great that the program has so much power to perform searches like this, but it's a lot for most of to digest. Should the program be "simpler," or must we be "experts?" That's the issue at hand, and right now, the program seems to be forcing us to understand it. That makes this particular learning curve steep as well as treacherous, which not a pleasant user experience.)

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PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 27 2018 8:16 AM

PetahChristian:
Help suggests "{Speaker <Person Jesus>} {Addressee <Place Jerusalem>}" but the wiki suggests using {...} WITHIN {...}.

As an aside, not all of us use the same source of help. For example, some users turn to the in-app help. Others like me turn to the wiki.

If there are discrepancies, or it's explained better in one source, but not as obvious in another, that creates a problem.

PetahChristian:
I think the omission of an operator between two search extensions puts an unnecessary burden on the user to know which default operator is being used.

It just occurred to me that the Bible Browser has a similar issue. If I click on two facets, I have no idea which operator is being used between them.

I suspect others have asked that the Bible Browser would have an option to also display its search query, so we could see a) what it actually is searching for,  b) perhaps learn by seeing what it constructed, and c) be able to copy the search, if we wanted to do something more complex, e.g., (THIS OR THAT) AND NOT OTHER.

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Randy W. Sims | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 27 2018 8:26 AM

PetahChristian:
I suspect others have asked that the Bible Browser would have an option to also display its search query

https://community.logos.com/forums/p/129323/840288.aspx#840288 

Posts 316
Luuk Dondorp | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 27 2018 9:37 AM

Rick Ausdahl:

.....The fact is I no longer even attempt any but the most basic of searches..... 

.....I too often found that the time I had available for Bible study had gone entirely to Logos study....

....The truth was, I simply didn't have the time to develop that skill...

Exactly !

I guess this is fact for the majority of users, including me.

Luuk

 

Posts 636
Michael S. | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 27 2018 9:51 AM

Dave Hooton:

{Label Question WHERE Rhetorical ~ false AND Type ~ "Wh-"} 

{Section <PropositionalOutline = Question>}

{Section <SpeechAct = Info: Quest>}

{Section <SpeechAct = Oblig:Direct>}

{Section <Sentence = Interrogative>}

I felt my eyes begin to glaze over when I started reading these strings...  Because I am not a programmer.

Posts 1934
Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 27 2018 2:00 PM

Luuk Dondorp:

Rick Ausdahl:

.....The fact is I no longer even attempt any but the most basic of searches..... 

.....I too often found that the time I had available for Bible study had gone entirely to Logos study....

....The truth was, I simply didn't have the time to develop that skill...

Exactly !

I guess this is fact for the majority of users, including me.

This is true of me as well

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 27 2018 3:48 PM

Denise:
I just don't remember the users wanting all these datasets. I honestly (sort of) thought it was a strategy relative to the seminaries or Bible college classes. Certainly not the bread and butter pastors (given the arcane syntax, works here, not there, etc).

The request(s) were simple enough, but the solution via datasets came from FL. Then the number of datasets began to grow, together with the need for documentation.

Dave
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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 27 2018 4:12 PM

Mark:
I just dont understand why I cannot find a go to page that explains in simple terms how to conduct searches

This wiki article might be your answer.

Mark:
I also do not understand why the complex search rules cannot be automated with simple commands or a drop down menu so I do not have to type in all the complex rules to do a search.

You might have missed the significance of the Context menu in generating the Search query. Just right click on a word and let the context menu do the work for you. But then you have to modify the query e.g. to get the questions of Jesus. This is where the wiki can give you the {Speaker } term and some examples under https://wiki.logos.com/Search_HELP#Proximity.

Dave
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Posts 809
Cynthia in Florida | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 27 2018 4:20 PM

Rick Ausdahl:

I've been following every post of this now seven-page long thread with a great deal of interest and a sense of justification as to why/how I've been so unsuccessful over the years in using Logos for the primary purpose I purchased it 10 years ago--i.e. search capabilities that I understood to be marketed as easy-to-use but head-and-shoulders-above any other Bible app out there.  Search capabilities that would allow me to quickly and reliably search and study scripture as never before possible.

That's what I was after!  I had several paper Bibles, a few paper commentaries, and a couple of paper books on theology and church history--resources that were easily read but not so easily searched and studied.  So I took the plunge with Logos ...and I've taken it again with every new release since, and have regularly plunged deeper and deeper with all the highest-end feature sets, a good variety of base package libraries, and a lot of additional resources not offered in base packages.

When I contrast where I am today with where I was 10 years ago, I find my library has grown from a total of roughly 40 paper resources (Bible and other) to 3400 resources, all supplemented by too many datasets, features, and tools to keep track of--3400 resources that I find are easily read but not so easily searched and studied.

I'm not going to give any specific search/study examples here that I have struggled with.  The fact is I no longer even attempt any but the most basic of searches.  I use to make the effort, but the vast majority of my attempts left me scratching my head.  Why didn't I get any hits--not a single one?  Why did I get these results when I thought I was asking for something else?  Why didn't I get any results from resources A, B, and C?  They're in my library and I know they have information that I would expect to be returned from this query--information I want.  But nope--not included in the results.  I too often found that the time I had available for Bible study had gone entirely to Logos study.

There was a time I asked for help, and as always, kind and faithful MVPs as well as a few other of the very technically oriented users would explain why I was seeing what I was and/or not seeing what I thought I should.  I thank each and every person who has been so kind.  But eventually I came to realize that there were just too many variables in where and how to do searches, and too many technical and/or syntactical hurtles to overcome in the learning curve to be productive with searches.  The truth was, I simply didn't have the time to develop that skill.  It wasn't going to happen so I'd best just get on with reading my resources.

That's basically where I am today--grateful for my library--still wishing I could better utilize it. 

You just described my entire Logos journey!  Except, I think the Bible teacher in me so desperately wants this to be accessible for the “little guy” that I haven’t quit fighting for them (yet), because FL seems to be listening.  

Cynthia

Romans 8:28-38

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 27 2018 4:27 PM

PetahChristian:

PetahChristian:
I think the omission of an operator between two search extensions puts an unnecessary burden on the user to know which default operator is being used.

It just occurred to me that the Bible Browser has a similar issue. If I click on two facets, I have no idea which operator is being used between them.

Both use the AND operator. Not quite the same as INTERSECTS (which is safer than WITHIN most times).

Dave
===

Windows & Android

Posts 6312
DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 27 2018 4:52 PM

I’m all for a “Smooth operator 🎶 Smoooooth operator  🎼  instead of a complicated one.  Man I love that song and her voice. What a classic by Sade 👍😁👌 Bring the Smooth Operator to Logos, hey, I’ll even take the Smooth Criminal if I have to 😜

DAL

Posts 809
Cynthia in Florida | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 27 2018 5:11 PM

Dave Hooton:

PetahChristian:

PetahChristian:
I think the omission of an operator between two search extensions puts an unnecessary burden on the user to know which default operator is being used.

It just occurred to me that the Bible Browser has a similar issue. If I click on two facets, I have no idea which operator is being used between them.

Both use the AND operator. Not quite the same as INTERSECTS (which is safer than WITHIN most times).

Dave and Petah:  This conversation, though totally Greek to most of us on here who are rallying for change, has been a wonderful example of how wacko this all is.  I mean, in reality, you two are clearly power users, but for the average user, I think this thread has proven that a fair number of us have little clue as to what you are talking about, never mind how you came up with it all.  And that’s the point...I didn’t purchase Logos because I had to know all of this.  I purchased it because it promised me that “Bible study has never been easier.“. Well, that’s true if I want to use it as I did my paper books, but that’s not what I spent all my money for, and finding material in my library beyond anything basic is a mystery and just getting worse and worse.

Cynthia

Romans 8:28-38

Posts 809
Cynthia in Florida | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 27 2018 5:12 PM

DAL:

I’m all for a “Smooth operator 🎶 Smoooooth operator  🎼  instead of a complicated one.  Man I love that song and her voice. What a classic by Sade 👍😁👌 Bring the Smooth Operator to Logos, hey, I’ll even take the Smooth Criminal if I have to 😜

DAL

I just have to say...this is REALLY funny. :)

Cynthia

Romans 8:28-38

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PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 27 2018 5:32 PM

Cynthia in Florida:
Dave and Petah:  ...  I mean, in reality, you two are clearly power users,

I think you've gotten the wrong impression about what I know! I'm a search newbie who has been intimidated by search, but is slowly starting to make a little progress, thanks to people like Graham, who helped get me started asking questions about search.

Thanks for giving all of us something to think about! Smile

Dave Hooton:
Both use the AND operator. Not quite the same as INTERSECTS (which is safer than WITHIN most times).

Thanks for the info.

I'll need to read up on the differences, since I don't know why INTERSECTS would be safer, most times.

Posts 6312
DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 27 2018 5:50 PM

Cynthia in Florida:

DAL:

I’m all for a “Smooth operator 🎶 Smoooooth operator  🎼  instead of a complicated one.  Man I love that song and her voice. What a classic by Sade 👍😁👌 Bring the Smooth Operator to Logos, hey, I’ll even take the Smooth Criminal if I have to 😜

DAL

I just have to say...this is REALLY funny. :)

Believe it or not I’m a changed man Cynthia! Having you say that is just an incentive for me. Hey, I even made Rosie smile the other day too.  I’m still a straight forward, tell it like it is kind of guy, but I’m just a bit more tacful now 👍😁👌 Overall I’m a happy man! God is good 🙂 

DAL

Posts 1934
Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 27 2018 7:05 PM

Dave Hooton:

Mark:
I just dont understand why I cannot find a go to page that explains in simple terms how to conduct searches

This wiki article might be your answer.

Mark:
I also do not understand why the complex search rules cannot be automated with simple commands or a drop down menu so I do not have to type in all the complex rules to do a search.

You might have missed the significance of the Context menu in generating the Search query. Just right click on a word and let the context menu do the work for you. But then you have to modify the query e.g. to get the questions of Jesus. This is where the wiki can give you the {Speaker } term and some examples under https://wiki.logos.com/Search_HELP#Proximity.

Dave

I always appreciate your comments.  But first of all, I know about the wiki article.  It is long and takes long to digest.  And your second comment about the context menu...I just spent a few minutes trying to understand what you wrote...and I have given up.

Posts 150
Rob Lambert | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 27 2018 7:50 PM

Guys, I am so glad to see that I am not alone.   

First, I love using Logos.... it has empowered me to dig much deeper than I ever thought I could.  I am grateful for this: but, with one caveat.  You have to be both monied, patient and technically minded; as well  as blessed with nearly unlimited focused time to master Logos.

Toward that end I have dedicated over 30 hours each week for over a year with Logos, and I would guess that I have it 30% mastered.  It is worth the hard work; but, it is hard work.

Even with that amount of commitment, I still can't structure a decent search.  For example, last night I spent over four hours trying to craft a search which would assemble every reference in the old and new testaments to a divine council meeting.  I tried and tried and tried and failed, using every device and trick I could.  As a law school professor I could do this stuff with Lexis; but, not yet with Logos.

I decided that I would figure this out.  It must be easy.

 I reviewed a few videos, I reread the help section, I searched the internet and.... i went to bed.

It would be nice if there was a place where a dedicated person could figure something like this out.  I know it is easy; but, not yet for me.

So, Logos is for dedicated people with lots of money to dedicate toward acquiring and learning how to use the incredible software

Logos is like working with DOS and we all want ipads.

Posts 1073
Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 27 2018 8:44 PM

Hello Cynthia 

After reading your post my opinion about your two IT guys is first just because someone is an IT guy it doesn't mean that all software can be understood at the same level. 

I studied computer systems as my major back in 94, I know I'm dating myself some but I also ran my own computer company I did networking and built hardware systems. And later worked as a networking operator in a big company overseeing four different networks every day. But I didn't understand all the software installed on every system. 

Back to the two IT guys they have a connection with sound boards and music systems so that could be a reason that they think Logos is way harder, for me I would say ProPresenter would be way harder. 

I have been using from Logos 4 about 10 years now, I don't think of myself as a power user, I use Logos to help me with my studies in Theology and my work in the mission field.

Because of the forums and the many videos, like DAL I have learned enough to carry me through my needs and studies.

In the end I think that any software system is only as good as the programers making it, but also it is the duty of the user to study the program they want to use.

Today I still don't use all that the program can offer me even though i use Logos everyday but I get around pretty good.

L4 Bible Study, L5 Reformed Bronze, & L5 Gold, L6 Platinum & Reformed Platinum, L7 Platinum, L8 Baptist Platinum.
2015 rMBP 15" 2.2GHz 16GB 256GB SSD, running macOS Mojave   iPad Mini 4,   iPhone 6.

Posts 4905
DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 27 2018 9:05 PM

Lee:
After reading your post my opinion about your two IT guys is first just because someone is an IT guy it doesn't mean that all software can be understood at the same level. 

I agree Lee, just because someone is an IT guy doesn't mean they understand software, they may as you have pointed out be a hardware and/or network person and not necessarily know a lot about software at all beyond the installation of it and the utilities used to monitor hardware and network performance. I most certainly would not expect them to know to be experts on bible software or be able to open up a bible software package and be able to use it any easier than the rest of us.

That of course is not to take away from the thrust of Cynthia's message. it just the story is not without flaws in its plot.

Lee:
In the end I think that any software system is only as good as the programers making it, but also it is the duty of the user to study the program they want to use.

Agree on both points Lee. It's a two way street.

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 27 2018 9:21 PM

Mark:
And your second comment about the context menu...I just spent a few minutes trying to understand what you wrote...and I have given up.

Let me try again

Start with a Reverse Interlinear bible and right click a word. The right side of the Context menu will show the data you can search for, and the left side will allow you to Search by opening the Search tool with a properly formatted query e.g. {Section <Sentence = Interrogative>}. If you want to search for questions of Jesus, you have to modify that query so that it looks like {Section <Sentence = Interrogative>}. INTERSECTS  {Speaker <Person Jesus>}. You can see similar examples under https://wiki.logos.com/Search_HELP#Proximity.

Dave
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